Just curious to see how much has the dog game change for better or for worse since the 70s, 80s, 90s, up until present day.
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Just curious to see how much has the dog game change for better or for worse since the 70s, 80s, 90s, up until present day.
The game really has not changed all that much. It has always been illegal. Good dogs are what everything revolves around. Money helps make bad decisions, and even make bad decisions worse. Same thing in the 50's, 60's, 70's. 80's and 90's.
On the other side what has changed is the people outside the game. People no longer have the capability of minding their own business. Once upon a long time ago what I was doing in my yard was my business and mine alone. Once upon a long time ago if a person walked a bulldog down the road he was not a despicable dog fighter. Once upon a long time ago the gambler who just 'bet on dogs' didn't sling as a primary source of income and then the two activities collide. Once upon a long time ago there were not nationally based organizations offering rewards with 1-800 #'s for any and all information concerning suspected illegal dog activity.
So my answer, my opinion would be there have been very little changes in the game. The good dogs typically prevail. The prepotent dogs typically produce. A certain number of breeders will hang papers. A certain number will lie about their, as well as their dog's, accomplishments. People will take advantage of today's nutritional advancements. A small percentage will steal a dog. The really good dog men are in the minority. I am betting the next 50 years will be the same as well except maybe more scrutiny from John Q. Public. EWO
outstanding EWO. THE ONE THING I MITE WOULD ADD IS THAT THE MAJORITY OFF FOLKS IN IT NOWADAYS DONT HAVE THE LOVE OF THE DOG THAT THE OLD HEADS OF YESTERDAY HAD...SOME FOLKS DO TODAY BUT I WOULD THINK IT'S A MINORITY NOW... AND IT'S BROUGHT ON BY THE THINGS THAT YOU MENTIONED...
MY FOLKS ALWAYS MADE SURE THE DOGS BEST INTEREST WAS FIRST.... I STILL FEEL THAT WAY AND I'M SURE THEY'RE OTHERS.. GONE ARE THE DAYS WHERE A LOSS WAS NOT A DEATH SENTENCE! THE TRU TO THE BREED FOLKS COULD TELL IF IT WAS THE CONDITION OR THE HANDLE...OR IT JUST WAS'NT THE DOGS DAY...
OL TOM TOLD ME ONCE.WHEN I WAS FIRST CUT LOOSE AND IT'S BURNED IN MY HEAD..''SON YOU DID THE RITE THING BY PICKING THAT ONE UP! STAND BY YOUR DECISION.. HE'LL BE A WINNER! JUST NOT TONITE''
THEM WORDS SEEMED TO BE REPLACED BY THINGS LIKE PLUG IT IN OR LEAVE IT THERE! WHEN IT VERY WELL COULD'VE BEEN THE HANDLE OR THE CONDITIONER..
THIS IS NOT JUST MY OPINION BUT THE WAY I FEEL ALSO...ONCE AGAIN GOOD POST EWO...
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Originally Posted by EWO
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Originally Posted by rodburner
What about the quality of dogs do you see a difference ?
Some of the things that I don't like in the dog game these days is the quality of dog folks we get today. When I started it was hard to get a bulldog. Now, if you have the money, you can get a dog (good or bad). The quality of the dogs has changed because not many people test their dogs and just sell papers to unworthy and unsuspecting dog people. As far as the quality of people, there has always been people of all walks of life involved in the dogs. These days, people don't know when to keep their mouths shut. They get on social media and brag about what they are doing and they want to have a crowd seeing them doing it. People just need to think and act like they have some sense. I talked to an old dogman and he let me know that the game will continue to change if we don't weed out the undesirables.
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Originally Posted by rodburner
Too many people are just pieces of human trash ... no regard for life, the animal, nothing.
I don't see why a fight has to mean a death sentence for one of the dogs either. There doesn't have to be anything cold-blooded about a fight.
It is supposed to be honoring both dogs, respecting winner and loser alike. Most curs give it a helluva go before they quit.
The mentality of too many people today simply sucks.
I haven't seen it with my own eyes, but from what I have heard the Japanese conduct their dog deals with the kind of setup and outlook that they deserve.
I'd say less than 15% of American dogmen do these days.
Jack
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Originally Posted by rodburner
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Originally Posted by CA Jack
It has changed a lot. Jim Williams who was the Mountain View, Oklahoma law. He put on some fights inn the 1960's several times. At one of the shows the Kiowa County Sheriff 'Pete Peters' was there betting on my dog. You are not going to see that today. Randy Fox
They are still lying, cheating people out of money, stealing dogs and selling bullshit. I think it has stayed the course
Ditto Foxman. When Mr. Davis showed ole Boomerang against a young dog of Mr. Teals. We were up in the mountains and several Highway Patrolman and deputies were present at this multi dog show. Was a weird feeling indeed.
Back then there was even a Veterinarian with a fellow dog partner that matched a few dogs. Another Veterinarian attended some of the Florida dog shows. To get real time on site information to help Mr. Davis' and company's dogs to perform better in the show ring or dog pulling events. Cheers
I met many what you call "old heads" that didn't have any love for the dog in the sense you speak. Most people don't do what's right for their dogs 100% of the time. I know I haven't. People that do that kind of thing 100% of the time have always been in the minority. Sadly, it's not usually brought on by things mentioned in the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by rodburner
The days of picking up simply are not gone unless that's the type of man someone deals with regularly. I've seen more picking up by people the last 10 years than I ever saw in the first 10+ years. Picking up a dog opens up another conversation that I'm sure has been hashed and rehashed.
People have always left dogs down too long for various reasons just like they've "plugged them in" afterwards if the dog didn't perform as expected or for whatever reason said owner needed.
I agree with EWO's sentiment on what's changed in the sport overall.
Statistics are probably all the same. More dogs, more people, good bad and ugly.
You are an ole timer, the VET that went to alot of those shows as well as "BOOMERANG's" had a Dog Named "WALDO" out of C. "RENO x MISS SPIKE" we got quite of few dogs from him when I was just starting around '75...Those were the good ole days, wouldn't you say. ???Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Ditto Browning, that was the Golden Era for sure. Over Time most of those multi dog shows slowly brought the attention of stricter law enforcement personnel and politicians fuelled on by the Humane Dike Society.
Can not remember all those fellows names. Seems it was Strickland, McDougal, Nelson, Ramsey, Divine, Waldrop. Never got to meet J Carver. Did see the Waldo dog and A. Howle bought that old Cotton's Bullet dog named Sambo. That Mr. Shivar formerly owned from I believe McDougal.
That veterinarian was the one who added that Upjohn predisone product to the azium and how to best use it. I am pretty sure He also developed that Steroid keep that Ozzie liked so much.
What V. Jackson learned from Mayfield and the Florida group. Made him hard to beat with the medium to small weight dogs. Which is what we had at that time. V. Jackson was nick named the Bitch dog man as he did so well with the female dogs. Did show some males, just had a knack for getting the most out of a bitch dog.
When those Florida boys rolled into N.C. and S.C. with those Carver bred dogs. A better feed, work and drug keep. The game made a big change again. The dried out and pulled to minimum weight dogs could not handle the wetter stronger hard mouth Carver dogs. Those early 70's and 80's Carver bred dogs were some of the best blood back then.
Even Mr. E. Skinner who was a big fan of the Cotton's Bullet/Hemphill/Lightner dogs agreed that Maurice Carver was going to have a great impact on the future bloodlines of the A.P.B.T. Was his opinion which today has proven to be almost 100% correct.
Irish Jerry at that time was just getting started. Had not at that time made that trip out to M. Carver to buy some dogs. Jerry was clowning around at one of the get to gathers with Nelson. Wanted to finger wrestle with Nelson. Nelson calmly broke his finger right then and there. Nelson was no one to mess around with. LOL Cheers
Yes it was a different group that we will nevr see again, Some of the ones I'm sure you know and maybe seen, that we also run with was J. Lee (Chivo Dogs), J. Hand ( Midnight Cowboy Dogs) and H.H. which just bred best to best LOL!!!. My Mentor (Euel Brown) was good friends with Jerry "DOC" Waldrop and he got us a lot of dogs from Baker, and a dog named "Thorntons "SMARTY" which was "Buster' bred back to His Dam "Art's Missy". I remember seeing Jarrett's "HEAD" take a part a Cowboy dog that D. Cousins owned, also Turlington's "DipStick" which he won that one, but later you know the story about Turlington When he put up a mortgage on his house and LOST and ended up killing himself over that. To go into another Dogman I knew quite a Bit about was the "Divines" before they moved to Ocala they lived in Plant City, Fl. about 20 mins. away from us, he was remembered for the great one with "ACE vs. Hudson's Tex" after that long battle out in Texas, then he had a son of Ace named "Little Ace" which had won 1 or 2 and so we being a thorn in his side we Match into "Little Ace" with a Doubled- Davis "Sister" dog bred to "Chivo" named Browns/Pettus "IRONSIDES" he was an assasin Killer dog, and 1/2 way thru the keep they Paid a Forfeit. We had already whipped a couple of his dogs with a Dog named Pettus's "Crimson Tide" the best they come up with out of the "Cowboy" blood. He was bred to 1 of our very good broods named Browns "Barabra" bred to a male out of Divines "Bruce" that B. Paul had named "Rascal". Anyway some of the guys that run with that group were Larry Coleman that loved the Old Red Nose stuff down from "Cassius" & Max "WISE" dogs. You also may have known a good friend of mine that his name was Larry Kelley which actually owned Divines "JODY" out of (Cowboy x Patty) He was a Arm Wrestler and I won more on him at the Matches then the dogs, Never seen him Lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
I have paid Att. to some of your post, but I never see you with what we Like, was wondering if any one keep the Jarrett's "Head" alive the Boomerang stuff worked well with our (L. Buster) dogs with a 1/4 of it for Mouth. We had the Gameness ( Enough to Win) but Boomer would help thru the "Zeb" & Bruce" stuff. Me & Larry Kelley went and saw "ZEB's" 2nd one and he was probably in the top 10 of the old ones I've seen. And if these new guys think that they could Win against that caliber dogs I've mentioned then they are smoking some good S**t. Well I could go on & on about Ms. Loposay, Joe Orday, J. Lee, Lamar Mills ( Mills Ch. SHORTEYE) which me & Aubrey pettus was over at his house a couple of weeks ago, he was always trying to whip our dogs with that "Cowboy" stuff, but we went 4 for 4 against those dogs. LOL!!!
You know what we like if you look up Pettus "Bad News II" may be under Edwards, that is me and I bred a Chivo/Patty Female to Davis "SCRATCH" and got a dog named Edwards "PRECIOUS" that gave us a Female ( Named Glass's JODY"that put away H.H. Ch. "Brandy" Dam ( She was a very Game dog) of "Rufus" and she was only 22 months old, so take a look and let me know if you have something I would be interested in. I run with a guy from Ga. that knows you, and he said you have the good stuff or know where it is, but you also sell some Shiteaters to these newbees. LOL!!! So lets not start off that way not with me. LOL!!! So you can add to this summery if "JACK" don't mind, I have not mentioned anyone that is active in any illegal activity these days, and I am not either and have not for 20 yrs., but still have a few of our ole stuff and about 5 of us keep it alive & well.
W.
When I was around Earl Tudor, Jim Williams, Danny Burton, Bill De Cordova, Bob Neblett or Bert Clouse and many more Bulldog Men. I never heard them cuss or use God's name in Vain. Some of them were on the wild side but still they had their values. They may have cussed some where else. Yet I never heard them cuss around me. I might slip up occcasionally and say a four letter cuss word but I've never used God's name in Vain ever since birth. Now that is more than I can say about some of the people on pedigree's online and their filthy mouths. I've never heard anyone in the old days make threats about Children's rectums or any threat's about children. I'm not sure that is a example of most of todays dogmen or not. I do not run with any of todays dogmen. I'm sorry if I've hurt someone's feelings. You don't have to talk bad to be tough. Some of the toughest dogmen I've known are soft spoken men.
Ditto Browning, I have not had any dogs for close to 40 years now. I knew all the above mentioned dog men. Another was Swetman that ran with Hargrove etc. I was there that day that Turlington lost that dog show. I too along with many others was blown away when the dog just up and quit on top. Am very sorry to hear he took his life over that. I remember how sick he looked was almost green looking like a sea sick person. I would have hated to go home and face my family over that sort of incident.
The last bloodlines I was working on was mostly a Bullyson/Art's Missy dogs with some Mayfield/Eli out and crossed to my J. Young's Chuck dog. The Chuck dog was a Creel bred dog that S. McNeil bought direct from M. Carver. I had future plans to cross the best of those dogs to some good Bolio bred dogs. The Hollingworth's dogs would have been a good choice.
I had let V.J. run with the older stock dogs we had years back. I later let him breed his Tunney dog to my Face bitch and my Monkey bitch. Let him have both litters. He had preferred to use his Son dog that was a full sibling to Tunney but Son got killed in a kennel accident.
To get a idea of what the last dogs I was breeding were all about. Pull up V. Jackson's Harley and J. Young's Southern Man. I had used another little stud dog named Zetterquest brother's Crazy Critter bred to Face as well. I had Monkey bred to Critter and she was poisoned right on the day of delivery. While I was called out of town to work on a Sunday. A year before that Someone came on my dog yard and broke my Chuck dog's back. Someone was not wanting me to get this bloodline up and running.
The best of those dogs, the V. Jackson's Harley dog came out of got killed in a Texas flash flood. Two of the best ones Tango and Cash got shot by V.J. 's pissed off next door neighbor. Dennis Jones had one of those sibling dogs to Harley. He may have bred this dog some, but was later killed in a H.S. dog raid along with the rest of his dogs.
Your friend that told you I sold POS dogs to newbies is in great Error. I was not in the dog game to sell dogs. Was just a hobby and passion of mine. To the best of my memory I never sold but a handful of dogs as pups. K. Sineath bought a few pups from me many years back. Another was Young's Red Lady sold back to Scotty McNeil. Another I sold was a nice looking pup off my J. Young's Bruno dog to a newbie named Williams for $300.00.
Later when Williams too early in this young dog's age wanted to school it. I advised him not to. He insisted and I let it roll with ole Bruno since both dogs were large dogs. The young dog showed a fault and I pointed it out. Offered to replace with another breeding. But some can not see or hear what is said even when you try to help them. This young dog had a lot of natural potential but showed a fault which I saw in it's eyes and a bad head move. Seasoned dog men know what I mean about that.
Williams later matched into Braham's Snake dog. Gave Snake a rough time and had Snake looking bad. I told V.J. not to bet on Williams' dog as it was probably a hell on wheels Cur for around 30 to 40 minutes. He did not believe me cause the dog was looking so good. He bet a good bet and lost it around the 35 to 40 minute mark. LOL
Williams kept that dog and used it for a roll dog. K. Marlowe use to check out some of her Red Boy dogs on that Williams dog. Cheers
i have a CD of Tudor, Sparks, Corvino, Clark, Trahan having a conversation. Great CD. Tudor is cussing up a storm on it. Cock sucker this and cock sucker that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxman
They may have all cussed. But I did not hear them ever say anything around me. I don't cuss so Maybe that is why they didn't or I just wasn't around them when they were mad. I'm not sure. But I am sure none of them threatened people's children. My wife and I were at Tudors house several times. Sometimes as long as three hours or so. I ask her if she remember him cussing. She said no not him or Flo cussed one time. I do know he did some pretty crazy stuff in his day and he wasn't my kind of people. So I guess I was wrong in using this for a comparison. Who knows under the right conditions they might all cuss. Anyway I was wrong You were right. Randy Fox
well some of those older guys did worse than threaten some children, they actually molested some. Some served some time over the years for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxman
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Originally Posted by Foxman
Randy, this has less to do with dogmen and more to do with the times. More people today in general are desensitized to vulgarity, sex, violence, and everything in between. Has less to do with dogs and more to do with the times we live in. If it was more class, gentlemen, and sportsmanship in the "golden days" then it's probably just a reflection of how people were back then in general. You could say the same about anything really. If someone told you that stuff on the internet it's really not abnormal. This is the times we live in, when a 16 year old can go on twitter and tell a professional
Athlete that he hopes his kids die because he didn't earn him any fantasy league points lol. Don't take it personal. What's happened to you happens to a lot of people. Has zero to so with dogs or dogmen.
Well said. That is why I posted earlier that the dogs or the game has not really changed. The dog game is just like any other segment of society it is mostly a reflection or a cross section of society.
To use your analogy. That same kid may have thought that in 1962 but he did not have the means to post it and make it public for the world to see. Nor had the world become so de-sensitized to vulgarity and deviant behavior that that rant is often over looked.
I am not sure of the percentages of good people to bad people are in any different today that twenty-thirty-forty years ago but today in the information age we hear every little thing from around the world everyday. The sway in 'perceptive percentages' is that the bad people in the news outnumber the good people 10 to 1. (and that is a conservative estimate). EWO
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Originally Posted by Black Hand
Let me see if I can say this. There were lots of people back then that fought dogs that would not be fighting dogs today. Because they do not like to be a felon. I'd love to fight some dogs right now. But I'm not going to because that is one step to close to jail for me. I had a friend that got arrested sometime back. I kept telling him. Your going to get caught. I ask him several times what is the use of fighting a dog if you can't tell anyone. He also said there are 25 of us and we do not let anyone else in. Well someone got in. Getting caught has changed him a whole lot. I use to not have to worry. All I had to do was pay a fine and go on. But today I think lots of people that fought them back when. They would not fight dogs because they like their freedom to much and are smart enough to know the risk. My family is much more important to me than any dogfight or pitbull ever was. Also there are Animal rights clubs out there that will pay people for turning someone in. At one time if you turned someone in. A fellow told me if each place that would pay up for your snitching. If you could collect it would be as much as 25,000 dollars. How many guys can you trust for that kind of money. Plus, the law moves into a town and this happened. They go to work in your town and roll dogs and make you their friend. They can catch anyone with their taking two years waiting getting lots of info before making an arrest. Don't get me wrong. I loved it and still miss it. But I'm old and would like to spend the rest of my life free with the people I love. I might have or might not have fought dogs if I were young in this era. I was a little crazy so I can't say for sure. Anyway it isn't for me now. I've never been arrested for any felonies and my name is in the phone directory. Not many dogfighters this day and time can say that.
Agreed. I took the question to be about the dogs and the game, not so much the changing times. I believe the good dogs today would compete with the compete with the good dogs of yesterday. The dogs that quit back then would quit today, and vice-versa.
I do agree the changes in society have had its impact on the dogs. I posted before that once upon a long time ago what I was doing in my yard was my business. In lots of places that is no longer true. In today's climate it is damn near a crime to walk down the road with a bulldog. Those things have changed.
And I agree the penalties associated with the dogs is far greater than most would take a chance with today but like all criminal activity, there is always a certain percentage that will partake. Great posts. EWO
Yep. This is why I stopped going even to public dog rolls for the most part, back when I was in TN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxman
I had two old-old-time friends that I knew and trusted totally. And pretty much no one else.
Saw people I sold dogs to get busted. Kept running around showing everyone their dogs. No sense. No scrutiny.
It got so if I didn't really know a person, what they had, what they had to lose, and what's been going on in their daily lives, I didn't need to be risking rolling dogs with them.
I miss seeing dogs go. Hell, I miss working on them after. Miss seeing the pride and enthusiasm on a busted-up dog's face. Miss seeing a good male hike is leg up extra high when he's proud of himself.
But I don't miss the stress of having 40 - 80 dogs on my yard, with a large percentage of them "showing signs" that something had been done with them.
I don't miss that stress at all,
Jack
Best to just do it like Jack's two old-old-time friends. No need for the pride and the bragging of doing dogs. Have other purposes for the dogs too besides just the pit itself. Hunt coyotes, raccoons, hogs, weight pulling, etc...with them and once in a while take them out for a show will be enough for me. The era of having a yard of 40+ dogs is over unless you're trying to be like TG. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Very good point ... it's a great idea to have lots of photos of your dogs hog-hunting, racooning, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit Bull Committed
Big Ernie did that with his dogs and I know Wac does that with their dogs. I never did, but I should have.
Well said.
Ditto Jack & Foxman. I know where both of you are coming from. Overtime the local news and even big bill boards were put up in Columbia S.C. Stating on the TV and the Bill Boards of offering rewards on info of game dog persons and game Chicken persons. The Lt. Governor had a Swat team set up especially for any such activities. I saw the writing on the wall or should I say Bill Board. LOL
I even had a panic attack one day while out in my dog yard. I am a very calm person and not afraid of most anything. I lived in a heavy wooded area and on that day, felt like the Law was hiding in the woods fixing to rush me. LOL
The times have changed for the worst not the better. Just this past week, a man rolled up into my ex partners home place. Said he had just recently bought some dogs from a fellow we both know. That he wanted to buy some dogs from my ex partner. My ex partner sensed a rat in the making and kindly sent this person on his way. This person was of Caucasian persuasion. Later that week my ole partner called our other friend.
This dog man said he has sold no dogs to any white people in many a year. So fellows tighten up your security and who you are hanging with. Know who you know and if they are not real dog men with no bad vices. Better gently part ways. Cheers
Agreed with the above posts. It was never legal but often over looked. If there are changes to the game itself I would say it is the numbers of people doing the dogs vs. the number of yesteryear. In 1970 maybe, and just maybe 3 of ten would know what a pit bull was. In today's information age it would be just about 10 for 10 and to go even further (and what makes things worse) is if any dog has one bulldog trait he is a pit bull.
I am not sure the circles were any tighter back in the day but back then there was not undercover efforts (to the extremes of today) trying to get in. Sort of like there is no need to lock the door if no one is trying to get inside. In our area meter readers and trash men get rewards and bonuses for tipping off on the dogs. It back doors a person's rights because they are "allowed" to come to your property and in turn tell what they see. It is just about impossible to hide a yard full of dogs.
As people make posts I guess the game did not necessarily change on its own but changed because of outside factors. I did not read the original post that way, so in turn I did not factor in the outside forces that are present today. I still do not think it has changed all that much within 'said circle' but I do admit the times and the climate have forced changes of the way the game is played.
Great series of posts. EWO
If I got my information right. The fellow that sold those leather harness and advertised in the ADBA was a FBI agent. He was present at Larry Porter's dog show. When Chavis' Jocko won his last match. Was a nice acting guy and watched all the matches. Heard him say He liked the hell out of these events.
But his job was to bust Porter/Jones/Morris and some others. Over bringing huge amounts of drugs into the country. They were using air boats and our intercostal waterways out of Florida and Charleston to bring it in. Was a big operation.
For awhile many years back a FBI agent was in our county. He had a legit plant and flowers nursery business. Never knew what they were scoping out. The only way I knew was how the phone and cable lines were tagged out. Certain colors and tags to let you know do not mess with or if out of service fix asap.
I can see that today even trying to take all precaution. J.Q. public is everywhere with smart phones etc. Hard to keep anything private anymore. Having less dogs and less dog friends may be your best bet. Cheers
VERY WELL SAID! And if anyone is schooling a younger prospect those words should be ttaught as well! love Wat you do respect all and know what it's not your night!Quote:
Originally Posted by rodburner