watching some great dogmen {} hog hunt they will call turn on their own hound to shift the responsibility so to speak. Some question the other hounds gameness by this method and or is it doubt in their own ?
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watching some great dogmen {} hog hunt they will call turn on their own hound to shift the responsibility so to speak. Some question the other hounds gameness by this method and or is it doubt in their own ?
I'd use it if i thought i could benefit from a handle. If I doubt the other dogs gameness i use it to. If youre in a bad spot a quick handle a wash and a scratch could be what turns it around. Alot of shows are won due to better handling.
Your responsibility is to your dog, first and foremost, and then to hopefully pull out a win. As soon as you can get the scratching started, you should. Be quick to handle your own so the burden of the scratch is always on your opponent. However, you cannot be blatantly obvious in failing to handle your dog when free of holds after the first turn. I can tell you I was always a lot quicker to handle when we were up to scratch though.;) That is how the game is played.
Great post overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
However, failing to make a handle (when a handle is there to be made) is a foul, plain and simple, which can and should result in a DQ.
The order to "pick up free of holds" is a directive, not an option.
Jack
Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some don't seem to know the rules, or disregard them to give an advantage to one side of the contest. Make certain you choose the right man or woman to be in the middle.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Same for people trying to claim a foul when there was no chance to pick up.
If I call a turn on your dog the referee needs to recognize. If i call a turn on my own dog the opposite handler has to recognize? How many times can he deny the turn before the referee makes the call? I saw this some years back and I did not ever really think about it til this post. What gives? EWO
Old story. These topics make me think back to days gone by. We were 'set up'. We went up north to bring a young male out for the first time supposedly on a first time out dog as well. We get there and it is a two timer who needs a third to get to a 4XW a few months later. We brought three people like agreed upon and they looked like they were tailgating for a football game. Lots of arguing and attempt at bullying. A real hostile crowd, the proverbial 'in the bee's hive'. They give me this males resume and his accomplishments. They ask what I have to say to that and I say, " I don't give a shit about what he did yesterday as long as he is on weight today." Sets the crowd off again. Around forty minutes things are not as they had planned and they call a turn on their own dog. The referee asks me to recognize and I say, " I didn't come here to watch me and you make handles, and I didn't come here to watch scratching back and forth. I cam here to kill shit in the box". (Young and much more brazen in my younger days). The crowd erupted, my dog had earned their respect and I rode his coat tail to a win. Those cats were solid dog men and I am glad I call them friends to this day. Sorry for the length and the rambling. EWO
Sure, you have to handle free of holds after a turn, I'm just saying that it is very easy to be a few feet further away from your dog and a little slower when the opponent is up to scratch. Anyone who doesn't play the game like that is a damn fool. I can guarantee you when you are up against most top notch dogmen that is what is going on with the other side. Good dogmen do everything within the rules to give themselves an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Absolutely. Handling is an art in itself. Way back when I got schooled by a more experienced guy. I thought he was in the way a lot and not letting the dogs do the show. I thought he was slow to handle and not on top of the situation. I thought I was a better handler with less experience. I thought he was not all he was cracked up to be as a handler/dogman. It was a subtle change to what I thought I knew over to what I eventually knew/know. He was there to win, he was doing his part and it was really helping his dog. I was young and inexperienced and I had bought into the phrase "it's all about the dogs". (Luckily, I was turned onto to dogs and tutored by someone who prevented me from making a lot of 'green' mistakes. As I said, luckily, that night we won. The other squad had a better handler, and in hindsight a better more talented dog, but we had better conditioning and enough heart to make it all work. We won but the ride home was another schooling process in itself. I learned a ton on the "Coach's breakdown" on that long ride home. EWO
Sure, it's very easy to do this, but it is still poor sportsmanship, not earnest effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
Strictly speaking, anyone who does play the game "like that" is defying the rules, and as such can (and should) be fouled for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
Justifying not following the rules with "Other guys do it too" arguments is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
The simple truth is, a participant is either earnestly following the rules, or he's not, and those participants who deliberately transgress the rules are called "cheaters."
For this reason, if a participant is deliberately not following the directive of "pick up free of holds," when there's a clear opportunity, then that person can (and should) get warned, then fouled-out. Period.
Actually, deliberately being too far away to handle, or not trying to handle when you can, is not "within the rules" ... it is acting in defiance of them :idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
Jack
Well, if someone is into doing the opponent a favor and helping them win, I suppose they will handle to their utmost ability each time out of holds, thereby placing the burden back on their own dog again every other handle.:rolleyes:
You wouldn't be able to see if I was sandbagging it a bit as a handler when the other entry is up, but you could be damned sure I was going to show the other guy up when it was our turn to scratch, even if it meant pulling my dog from the bottom and forcing the other guy to handle his.
Jack, there's no rule that says you must be anywhere other than in the pit when the show is going on. Now, I'm not suggesting that being 16 feet away in an opposite corner is a good place to be, but you don't need to be in the ready position the whole show after the first turn either. If you're up against a 300+ pound man who is over 60 years old, do you think he is going to be as fast on the handle as the 21 year old kid who is in shape? I'm not going to help a guy out any, that is "poor sportsmanship" to my own dog! My pick ups are going to match his pace when he is up to scratch, and there isn't a good ref in the country who would call a foul on that.
This is a team sport and the best team wins. if my opponent makes a handle i will grab my charge BUT i will not initiate a handle that will not be advantageous to my team and as TFX says no good ref will call a foul on that.im not saying blatantly ignore the rules but maybe i wasnt fast enough, maybe i thought he was in hold, and i was just being cautious because what will get you fouled out sooner is repeatedly attempting to handle your dog and they are not free of holds.
"my knee was sore that day, what can you do??" LOL
Make a handle to help your dog..or make a handle to end the contest..it's usually one of these choice.
The guy with the advantage don't have to initiate the handle if he doesn't want to. If the down dog is getting killed, his handler better initiate the handle, cause the other guy ain't gonna help him out. Thats just common sense.
You're right YVK, a ref will give you a warning for trying to make a handle when they're still in hold than not trying to handle.
In 19 years, I've never heard of anyone even get a warning for not trying to make a handle.
I agree, I'm not handling while I'm on top at every chance I could. Most guys are scared to handle from the bottom and I'm damn sure not doing their job for them. If the opponent is/does make a handle then ill be ready to make mine. I can't tell you how many times I've snatched mine up from the bottom and been told "nice handle". It ain't no nice handle, it's a PROPER handle that anyone in competition should be or able to do! If I handle mine and yours is chasing me because you can't/won't handle yours, a boot will solve that problem and don't go crying "foul" because the FIRST foul was you not handling yours, I don't play the "oops my bad I couldn't get a handle" game.
It's a fine line. The true sportsman sees it in black and white with absolutely no gray area. The guy skirting the edges and slightly stepping out of bounds in order to win more than likely has some gray area between the black and white. I will do what I can to make my handles when they are suppose to be made. The only time I skirt the issue, and to some it may be a case of stepping over the line is if I am on top, really laying the wood and the scratch is on you. I am not going to make a handle that helps you more than it does me. My first responsibility is the welfare and well being of my dog. I am not going to take an advantage away from him that he worked so hard to gain. In this case I will skirt the 'rule' and pretty much let you know to pick up. EWO
good point ewo i would not give you the advantage in any hunt im there to win not nothing else not saying i willl do what ever but i will do what evers best with in the hunting rules
It's a fine line. A similar topic is the scratch to continue. Once long ago I was asked for one and I refused. It did not go over well with the home crowd. I replied they could pick up and get a courtesy if they were not sure if the dog was game. But I would not punish my dog for doing well no more than I would reward theirs for coming up short. Like I said, some gray area here, cause if I were on the bottom end in the same situation I would ask for a time out, a drink of water and a soothing sponge bath if I thought it would help my dog. Anytime your dog is willing to die for your money the very least you can do is to absolutely have his best interest at heart. EWO
I have NEVER seen anyone give a scratch to continue, I've seen it asked numerous times but never allowed, from a competition standpoint it makes no sense. It could literally change the bout 180 degrees, who would do that to their charge? Also, I have never seen a crowd get upset about not allowing it, they know the deal, it's NOT a rule or even in the grey area. Like you said, pick up and ill let you tail scratch but I ain't letting you blast me in the corner either. Why take a chance of getting a bleeder or knocking out a cutter after the winner has been decided?:embarrassed:Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
I've seen one scratch to continue, but I'm like EWO. I'm simply not giving them that option. I will have to politely decline at any point they ask. I won't scratch to win any contest. They will simply have to pick their dog up or leave it down. Makes me no difference. Nine times out of 10, I'm not letting the opponent courtesy either unless it's by the tail. Even then, the chances aren't good at me going for that. My dog has done his job, and that's all that is required.
As for calling turns on your own dog, I did that with Bishop in both shows he won. I knew that the best shot I had with him was to get the scratching started. That was about the ONLY thing he excelled at, and it was also at a time where I was one of those people who wasn't interested in a match quality dogs. I was simply interested in matching dogs. Either way, it worked out for me, and I'm of the mindset that if that allows me the better chance at winning, I'll call a turn on my dog every chance I can to give me that advantage.
Ditto on the TFX handling post.
Ding Ding Ding.... Winner, winner chicken dinner! I think I once saw some sloth who was flat behind on a couple of handles; to the point the other entry was already heading to his corner with his dog, and the ref cautioned him to get with the program, but this whole "immediately foul you out for the slightest delay" business is simply not a reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by OGDOGG
Exactly! Do I help the other guy out in the name of so-called "sportsmanship" (which this game severely lacks anyhow), only to put my own team at a disadvantage? Hell no! I'll err on the side of me and my dog winning every time, thank you very much. To do anything less is foolhearty. I've all but purged dishonesty completely out of my life, and if I was handling one tomorrow night, I wouldn't change a thing in this regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by YVK
in eastern europe they have somehow setup different kind of rules, no handles on your own initiative but there must be a 3 sec out of hold count by the ref in order to both handle your dogs. very bad for the game in my opinion
Seen it given one time but it was way late for it to matter. As far as the crowd goes, when three or four travel and end up in a spot with 15-20 guys on the home team anything that does not go their way can get rowdy. Not because the dog men in the crowd disagree, but because of the 15-20 maybe four or five have dogs. I hate to say never, but I can't think of a circumstance where I would give a scratch to continue or make a handle to benefit the other squad. But, I will ask for one (and hope but not expect) and try to make the handle, or maybe not make the handle if it benefits my dog.
Scratch to continue could benefit both camps. If I had a dog that's hard to handle where you have to pry him off, then yes I would agree to one. I will go as far as hinting them to ask for one also. The sooner it ends the better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
Good post
I agree with TFX as well. When your partner is willing to die for you and your money the very least you can do is not give the other guy any kind of advantage. I do believe every dog has the right to quit and that is why it is a scratching contest. I think in all fairness to the dogs the handles should be made cleanly and at the appropriate time so if one is ready to hang it up he does not have to endure if he does not want to be there, but....the other guy has to do the same for his own dog. I can't look out for both of them. EWO
That would be a slight exaggeration of what I meant :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
You're building a strawman to knock down. I never said any of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
I said if there's a CLEAR handle, you should make it. That is the rules: pick up FREE of holds. That doesn't mean if your dog is in the top spot with a half-hold, and the other is on the bottom with no hold, that you "must" snatch your dog up. However, if your dog lets go and is FREE of holds too, then it is incumbent on you to handle your dog. And, yes, you can get warned/fouled for not doing so.
I never suggested making wild-ass handles to "help out" the other side; I said you have to pick up FREE of holds after a turn is called.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
I don't think we're actually arguing about anything real here, just your overstating the degree to which I meant to pick up.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
Jack
I agree. it seems there were ten different opinions in the beginning but as it was discussed pretty much everyone is on the same page. It is always best to make the decision that best benefits the dog. I would not expect to get a scratch to continue because I doubt I would be giving one if asked, but, I would ask for a cup of tea and a warm sponge bath if I thought it would get my dog in a better spot.
Later in life, after I had been schooled a little I played dumb once and it paid off for my dog. We were ahead, and pulling away early. It was some trash talk back and forth. They called a turn on their own dog and I acted like I had never heard of such. So they spent five minutes explaining and telling me how stupid I was. The ref even told me I should have learned more before I got there. That took a couple of minutes. Then he asked for a scratch to continue. I asked. "How does that work?". I took a severe tongue lashing. This explanation and ridiculing took another five minutes. I was just about the dumbest SOB on the planet. There was a guy there that if I were to call his name out would be very recognizable. He is a 60's and 70's and into the 80's guy. He spoke up as it was winding down and let the cat out of the bag. They were more concerned with telling me how stupid I was, maybe making themselves feel better, to realize they were going deeper down the hole by the minute. I bought my dog some time with him providing quality work without any let up. I made a handler's decision to let him do what he did best and that put him in a good way. It worked. Somewhat backhanded but I was trying to put him where he could do his best. EWO
Lol Good job EWO!!
thats why the ref should ask if you know the rules before the match starts. i say let the dogs proof who is best and dont play that stupid games
I agree wholeheartedly, but contrary to popular belief it is a team sport. if we left it up to the dogs there would be no contracted stuff, no conditioners, no handlers, no keeps, just dogs. We take them off the chain and drop them in the box and that would be the end of it. That may be the purest way to go about things, but I am hoping I have a better dog, I am planning to have one in better condition, and I intend on making decisions to put him in the best possible situation. My part not only lasts 8 weeks, but from release all the way thru the doctoring afterwards. Like I said it is a team sport. EWO
Quote:
Originally Posted by R2L
I love it. You have to do all you can to help your dog. Anyone who doesn't play the game with as much competitive edge as they can get away with is setting themselves up for more L's and less W's.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
the ref should lay down the rules before hand .... as this makes it very clear. the simplest things stop the drama .... as for tail scratching and courtesy scratching both very silly .Quote:
Originally Posted by R2L
It's a tactic. Like dribbling out the clock in basket ball, taking a knee in football and getting on the bicycle in boxing with a points lead. Fair or foul? It's a tactic. Some may not like it ie; ME! But as long as they honor the rules, it is what it is.
I never liked all that handling while in hold and snatching. I call it a foul.
It's so easy for the Monday morning QBs at work to talk shyt over the weekend show they watched.
I've seen dogs that are considered legends today and you would be surprised what purple do in the box for a win.
Now if you start calling out "that dog must have been shyt, doesn't deserve it's win, etc..." Leery me just tell you
As stated one is a legend today and everyone just about knows the Dbl Gr. Ch. That this dog was.
The other, that people still call a great dog...."the dog with tbd heart"g