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i didnt know there was different levels i read in another post today a dog was pit game but quit in 40min im a nobody but that sounds stupid to me if it quit in 40min is that an insult to a game dog i thought the meaning of the word was not to quit??
You have obviously never seen a dog get outclassed. I have seen dogs scratch back in 10 mins that i would call game. With punctured lungs, crushed chest bones and a certain death in front of them. To me that is a gamedog. 10 or 120 mins.
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I agree there are different levels of Gameness, but in my experience you can't measure it by time. I can only gauge Gameness by watching the individual work. If a dog doesn't take bottom or any significant damage in my opinion, he isn't proven to be game. I can't say that a 2hr dog is game without seeing him work, and I can't say that a dog that lost in 40 is a cur without seeing the hunt. You'd be surprised how many people cant tell the difference between shock & quit.... And a dead game dog is useless and only good for a good story to tell. JMO
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Originally Posted by pig mad
There simply are levels of gameness, same as there are levels of every other trait these dogs are known to have :idea:
The people who adhere to the "game" or "cur" mentality either aren't very bright, they have no imagination, or they suffer from OCD.
The truth is, people confuse DEAD gameness with mere gameness. Dead gameness is simply the highest form of gameness that there is, and in fact the very phenomenon of using the phrase "dead game" itself implies there are lesser forms of gameness and therefore degrees of gameness :idea:
The presence of gameness is merely the presence of the desire to win in a dog, and this desire to win comes in an infinite variance of degrees among dogs ... from none at all ... up to the point some dogs would rather die than stop trying ... and everything inbetween.
What it all boils down to, therefore, to us as dogmen is what is an ACCEPTABLE level of gameness in any particular dog? This is where opinions vary, and where people get confused, and this confusion is further complicated by the fact there is such a "stigma" attached to a dog quitting (especially amongst novices, who have big egos and little brains), as nobody wants to be associated with "having a cur" ... almost like they have the cooties :rolleyes: :lol:
To more experienced and mature dogmen, the questions surrounding a dog's gameness aren't really whether he's "game" or "cur" any longer ... since pretty much any dog can be ruined if someone tries hard enough ... but the question becomes more along the lines of "Is he game enough TO WIN." The name of the game is WINNING, not taking one's death losing, so there has to be some balance achieved between ability and enough gameness to keep that ability in there :idea:
Plainly stated, in order to compete and win in open competition, a bulldog has to have an extraordinary level of gameness, way beyond the average dog, however (depending on his skill level) some dogs do not have to be "dead game" in order to win. Through selective breeding, many dogs have the ability to destroy the average match dog (or out-slick it) that is so great that their gameness will never be tested--and really doesn't need to be tested either. Under ordinary circumstances, these dog will simply blow through regular bulldogs.
By contrast, some dogs don't have much ability, but they are so game and so tough that you simply cannot "kill them quick." Generally, the lower the skill level in the dog, the more that dog is going to have to rely on gameness (durability, stamina, etc.) in order to pull things off in a "comeback" later on down in the trenches at some point. Other dogs have the skills to keep themselves from getting hurt, softening up their opponents over time, and then rolling-up their sleeves and going to work on a now-tired opponent. My original dogs tended to be like this, and generally were behind early at first, not getting hurt too bad though, from which point they would gradually start to pull ahead at the :40 to 1:20 mark on their confused and tired foes ... and so extreme gameness has always been a preference of mine, because my dogs' style required being "in there" long enough to mount a comeback and win. (Hence my other handle "SmileWiper" :mrgreen:)
With these things said, "how game" a dog is really isn't determined by a watch (or by "how long" the dogs have gone), but by what's happening in there. A dog that goes 1:20, but who isn't tired and isn't hurt, has NOT shown as much gameness as a dog that belly-crawls at :35, bloodless & with a blown-out front end, with two arteries having bled the dog out. So stop looking at your watch to determine "how game" your dog is, and pay attention to 1) how DOMINATED the dog has been, 2) how TIRED the dog is, 3) how FRUSTRATED the dog is, 4) how INJURED the dog is, and/or 5) how MUCH BLOOD the dog has lost.
When you realize that gameness is just a trait, like any other needed performance trait, you will quickly realize they ALL come in varying degrees. Just as dogs have "varying degrees" of how hard they bite ... of how long they can go before they're tired ... of how smart they are in there ... of how much abuse they can take before collapsing ... etc., etc., etc. ... so too will you easily see that dogs have varying degrees of how bad they want to win ... and how much HELL they are willing to endure before they give up trying.
All of these traits come in varying degrees, and we as dogmen simply have to select those dogs that have enough of these key traits to be competitive out there, against anyone. Those dogmen whose dogs repeatedly and consistently win out there prove the worth of their "eye for a dog" ... while those dogmen whose dogs don't ever get heard of prove they need to re-evaluate their eye or selection process.
Hope this clarifies,
Jack
yeah i understand but still seems bit funny. i only have 1 thats been tested and he belly crawls being a novice i thought thats what its all about.
no one can really tell you what "it's all about". that's just a matter of opinion. every person like different things for different reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by pig mad
Well put big guy! Wake em up.....Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Labeling one game and cur can be black and white but there are also a lot of gray areas. For me, the fact dead game carries a positive vibe with these dogs just baffles me. In the phrase the operative word is dead, not game. End of that particular story regardless if you have sire and dam, brothers and sisters. Dead is dead. For me, and this may step on toes so I will pre-apologize, if anyone allows their dog to stay there til death when death is the only outcome (out classed, out matched, poorly conditioned, whatever, whatever) is a piece of shit. I understand it happens but to see it, and allow it to reach dead game status is just plain dumb. A lot of times dead game comes about because of money. Leaving him there hoping the other will quit on top to win the bet.
Off the soap box now, I believe there are levels of gameness. I believe some dogs know when to show gameness or aggression. The pictures of GrCh Virgil with 4 and 5 month old puppies. Ch. Angel could be turned out on the farm to run free with the blue heeler cattle dogs. In the box they both had finish and were considered game animals. Ch. Charlie would scratch to anything put in front of him, including you if you got down on all fours. I had one that anyone seen him said he was deep game and they would bet he was dead game. Personally I think he just loved it so much he would stay there no matter. He looked disappointed/dejected if another was taken off the chain.
Are the rocket scratchers any more game than the more methodical one who scratches to a hold? Regardless of how each of us call it the dog only has to stay there long enough to win. And that is not on match night all the time, it can be in a check when even though he is getting drug, he thinks and acts as if he is winning. He looks across and everyone in the building knows he is having his ass handed to him, except for the most important one, himself. Let me go and I will wear his ass out again, even if things are to the contrary. EWO
it is really hard to put a timer on it. All dogs that go over an hour are not necessarily game. The opposing dog may have never taken him to the point where there was a decision to be made, do i go? or do I stay? One of the phrases I hate in these dogs is giving a dog props by saying he/she curred another one out. I don't really think any one particular animal can make another quit, or find the cur if the cur is not there. I believe in the level of gameness theories so that particular dog was going to quit regardless of who got him to his decision making point. Maybe it is a play on words, but I believe the better the opponent the faster he will get there. But if that dog is game, it does not matter the quality of the opponent, he will always be there. The key is when he is deemed game enough by the owner, whether he is picked up or whether he is left down hoping the higher class animal quits on top. EWO
Historically the term "pit game" was used to describe a dog who had demonstrated enough gameness to be shown, but was then eventually shown to be less than deep game in the pit.
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampDweller
They will all quit. Everyone of them. It's just finding the exactly what it is, that will make them quit. Now that's not my intention, but in any combative contest, that SHOULD be the agenda. Find what it is that will make your opponent quit....thus - winning. Long story short, there are degrees/levels of gameness.
I got to spend quite a bit of time with the legendary Danny Burton. He said something one time that I really liked. "I ain't here to find out how game MY dog is. We're here to find out how game YOUR dog is." That's the winning mentality.
Nothing will quit a dog faster than heat and the inability to breath.
So what do you think about gameness related to maturity?
Would a 16 month old fully started dog show the same (level of) gameness as the same dog 2 years later in the same situation?
That is a great point.Quote:
Originally Posted by R2L
Gameness varies within EACH individual dog ... at different ages ... in different states of health ... and against different opponents/challenges/sets of circumstances.
People try to make gameness so "cut and dry," but it really is a complex trait and subject that warrants more chin-rubbing than most people are willing to give it.
Jack
I wanna know who that is in R2L's avatar! Lol
Its hard to read his comments my eyes keep wandering to the left i love pizza..
i have to say this comes to a matter of opinion for me as i think some dogs will never quit or no dog could ever prove that to be false so maybe that is were degrees play in
never the less i have a saying your not at the squared hunt to test your gameness u are there to win
Some dogs have proven they will never quit..........ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY. On another day with different injuries, different biochemistry, different duration of a contest, who really knows?Quote:
Originally Posted by FarmersChoice
You have to respect the ones who have come close to death's door and still showed no indication of their head or heart going in the wrong direction. I have owned more than my fair share of that kind and seen many others, and I am proud of each one like that who represents the breed so well. That trait, gameness, is the essence of the American Pit Bull Terrier.
Here is a piece of an account sent to me by a fancier showed a dog I bred. I think he captures the admiration we all have for a game dog very well.
"The second to last scratch ____________ got a standing ovation by everyone in attendance, because he came over on wrecked front legs but even faster then before! And then at :59 he went to the kidneys up to his molars, and by 1:03 the other dog was balling up in his corner facing us sideways. On ________'s courtesy, all busted up, he scratched the hardest of the night, slammed into the throat and the crowd went nuts. All in all he showed awesome gameness, super intelligence, great conditioning, never got frustrated, got stronger the longer it went, and turned everyone into a ___________ FAN."
The guy that turned me onto dogs put it like this, " I don't care how game your dog is I want to make him unable to scratch, regardless of his desire". He always bet on his dog being rougher, harder mouthed and in better condition. His plan was to stop the other dog, having total disregard for the level of gameness across the way. And if the other quit a long the way he would say someone missed a sign a long the way and should have brought a different dog. EWO
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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel
It is as individual as anything in these dogs. No two dogs are alike. I have often wondered how many dogs labelled a cur and put down yesterday could have won today. That 16 month old may show game today and at two years old be a more mature dog, maybe deeper game and over all better. Or, he could have very well shot his wad at 16 months and decide to pack it at 2 years old. There are only a handful of statements in these dogs that ring true across the board and one is "only time will tell".
One of my personal favorites was a bolio/eli male I had that just absolutely loved to be in the mix. Winning or losing, top or bottom, as long as he had a hold life was just grand. I am not sure if this is a level, or an accurate description, but he was plain crazy game/stupid game. He could bite shit in half but would give up ten holds to get one. His tail wagged the entire time and I swear at times he had a smile on his face. I am not sure if he thought he was game or thought he was winning or really even cared. He just wanted to be involved but had no real agenda for being there except just being there. Crazy game or stupid game if that makes sense. EWO
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Originally Posted by R2L
Game dogs don't know
Good point. We had a 2X winner many years ago. He won is first in a little under an hour, his second in 1:36, in a very tough deal, and then lost his championship bid to CH Tweaker in less than :50. The dog had shown much more gameness in the past not only in time, but fatigue, punishment, pretty much every aspect of being down than he showed in his loss. After he quit in that show, the dog was kept around to evaluate again. The next time, he didn't even last :30. It was like he was all used up. I think quitting broke the dog down spiritually and emotionally.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
There's no exact science to this stuff, which is why the ones who consistently show they won't quit are very special dogs regardless of how they are bred. Many of them won't be able to produce that same package themselves with regularity, but they represent the breed well as individuals, and I just love a good, game dog.
IMO there is a difference between conditioned/schooled athlete and that old dead game warrior
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Originally Posted by TFX
This is what we all have to remember. Dogs aren't machines, and i think there is only so much a dog can handle. What I've noticed is that a dog is only worth what he did last time you looked at him. What if a dog gave you all his got in an outing. Do you really need to have that dog prove that again? There are many examples were dogs that showed deep gameness one time are broken psychological to the next and leaves you standing scratching your head.
Dogs would be easy if there was a right or wrong way in this.. Thank god it ain't...
Danny Burton, "I'd rather take a 2-3 year old dog out than a 3 time winner any day. You gotta realize. Every time a dog goes out, it's like he's getting bullet wounds. How the hell would you feel about doing something this hard after surviving so many bullet wounds in your life"Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
There is a wear and tear factor that has to be considered and some have already said it here. Once one has proven to you, what you wanted to know - when is this, in and of its self, enough? Tough one.
Very good posts, thanks.
Love a good game dog. My opinion is, it's better to have one that is so good that you never have to find out if he is dead game, but if he does have to go the distance, you have a better chance if he is from a family of dogs that have a higher percentage of game dogs. The rest is just luck and probability.
A lot of the time people just go to the box far to often to ever be 100% healthy. Hell, I just had 1xW that was almost killed due to damage to the chest ( pressure biter), now i come from the medical field, and I would have given the dog at least 5 months off after his hunt. But his owner did him 9wks later with the same animal ( with no work) and lost his purse and the dog. I think people using the same dog too frequently is a major cause of seeing different performance levels in the same individual dog. A lot of active people think just because a scab closes, the wound has healed, and the dog is 100%. If a dog is 100% healthy, you should see the same level of performance or better, but definitely not less unless he's about to stop/quit. JMO
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Originally Posted by TopShelfKennels
You're exactly right.
I can think of at least one member of this board who still can't seem to understand this concept.
The keep itself is hard on a dog, let alone the punishment taken. Sometimes it takes a year for a dog to recover fully ... and, in some cases, a dog will never recover fully from his ordeal :idea:
Part of being a good dogman isn't just the willingness to match dogs ... anytime, anywhere ... it's also having the sense to say NO when the dog needs a break, and to understand that every dog needs time to recover, including from the keep itself, let alone the damage done during the contest.
Jack
I think going to the well one too many times has ruined a lot of good dogs. The majority of my first time out dogs are there for a game check. I find small $$$ matches, get him in good shape and send him to that three way intersection. One he is a match dog. Two, he is a game dog that was outclassed and needs more work but has what I am looking for so I can breed to him down the road. Three, he does not fit either one or two. There are tons of dogs out there who are Ch. and Gr.Ch. that had harder times in school than they did on show night but school can't be counted as W's. But school has to be a major factor in deciding when enough is enough. I have heard it referred to as a gas tank without a gauge. Even when a dog has great gas mileage he will run out of one keeps driving. EWO
Then there was the 14 year old who took 3 dogs for over an hour with her head in the right direction. She makes the quitters look kind of silly. Who really knows? They're all different, but I like the good ones that look good consistently.
I think it depends on the individual dogs. There are some dogs it never makes any difference with as evidenced by TFX's story of the 14 year old female. I can think of a couple of dogs that never showed any signs of giving it up, and they were hammered throughout their lives for the most part.
While I agree that most all dogs are curs, I think there will always be the few that aren't. The machine cliche is applicable most of the time, but there are dogs out there that can almost make you believe they are machines.
i have to agree with frosty there are some that just refuse to be a cur hahah but most are gonna be if really put to the right test i respect the hell out that true game dog back when i first started that wasnt the case ohh how green i waz smhQuote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
Ozzie Stevens told the story many years ago of a game cock man who had a quest to find a dog that was "as game as the gamest chicken". As I recall the story, the fancier finally found one of those kind after some fooling around with and showing the dogs, and then promptly got out of the game satisfied that they actually exist.