Mange in a brood gyp.

I have a dilemma we have a GREAT brood gyp her on the yard she'll turned 9 this past March. She contacted mange around 4-5 years of age. Feel free to discuss the topic whether it was genetic or environmental during this thread. I would appreciate any and all knowledgeable feedback/input. Now to the problem at hand. We've bred her twice with good results. But early on with her skin concerns we treated and waited. She prove worthy of breeding but she's of course passing it to her offspring during nursing. Now I have plans for one last good breeding plan for her. But should I we or would you? I and my brothers/partners are treating the pups now. Some get it others don't, the black pups show the signs real quick. Is it worth the aggravations? Or should I retire her and eliminate her from the program?

What have you treated with?

I've used Taktic, Ivermcectin pour on and old school bleach and water mix sponge on.

I have had luck with 1% ivomec at 0.3 per ten pounds of body weight. Given ORAL per day for a month. I would also not give on a empty stomach.

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Originally Posted by thefoodchain

I have a dilemma we have a GREAT brood gyp her on the yard she'll turned 9 this past March. She contacted mange around 4-5 years of age. Feel free to discuss the topic whether it was genetic or environmental during this thread. I would appreciate any and all knowledgeable feedback/input. Now to the problem at hand. We've bred her twice with good results. But early on with her skin concerns we treated and waited. She prove worthy of breeding but she's of course passing it to her offspring during nursing. Now I have plans for one last good breeding plan for her. But should I we or would you? I and my brothers/partners are treating the pups now. Some get it others don't, the black pups show the signs real quick. Is it worth the aggravations? Or should I retire her and eliminate her from the program?

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Have you been breeding her every heat?

She may have a suppressed immune system because of the stress of repeatedly being bred, over and over again.

Jack

Jack, would you agree that there's an immune system problem regardless of frequency of breeding?

I've had some terrible mange in the past and have chosen to not use those dogs as it's just too big a hassle for myself and absolute misery for the dog who has it.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

Jack, would you agree that there's an immune system problem regardless of frequency of breeding?

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Not necessarily.

If the immune system is fine in an unbred state ... and if it's fine even in a bred "once or twice" state ... then where is the problem?

If a problem only ensues after a bitch gets bred multiple times in succession ... never being allowed to fully recover from the last time ... and after a period of several years finally starts getting rundown and moth-eaten ... then the problem isn't really with the bitch, the problem is in her being over-bred. Essentially she is being rundown by her owner.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

I've had some terrible mange in the past and have chosen to not use those dogs as it's just too big a hassle for myself and absolute misery for the dog who has it.

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Some dogs simply get terrible mange, and I agree it is undesirable. However, such dogs usually get it early on, and they struggle with it forever.

But IMO this is a whole other topic than a bitch who is flawless and perfect for 6 straight years of her life, but only AFTER being bred over-and-over-and-over again starts to fall apart.

Jack

I see and agree.

The dogs I referenced were dogs who DID have trouble early in their life. I've had two that I had to put down. Both were Tonka Red Baron dogs. I've only fed Alligator, Snooty-Eli and TRB dogs. I've only seen the mange in the TRB stuff. Just my own experence though.

There are two common types of mange Demodex and Sarcoptic.

Mostly all dogs have some Demodex mange mites on them, its usually when something weakens and compromises there immune system is when the Demodex goes out of control causing rise to certain noticeable symptoms. Even some people have demodex mange mites on them but they usually cause no symptoms in humans. Demodex mange is not inherited but can be passed on from mother to pups or from any other dog contact. Whats inherited in the pups is the weak immunity against demodex mange mites that have been genetically passed down from the parents to certain individual off springs. Usually pups going through immunity changes are more susceptable to demodex as well as senior dogs who have weaker immune systems.

Sarcoptic on the other hand is very contagious meaning, regardless of ones immunity level , it will cause considerable amount of damage to your dog if not treated. Sarcoptic mange can also affect HUMANS and be a hassel to treat.

There are many treatments to mange, but its a slow and on going steady process that could take even months to treat. Common treatments is Dursban, Amitraz, Mitaban dips, Ivomec, Nustock, Permethrin and certain shampoos and antibiotics for secondary infections.

Good post dogman! I didn't want to hammer all that out on my phone. Lol

The gyp in question hasn't been over bred. The irony is she's has only been bred twice and I've had her since she was 9 weeks. As a pup she had the most beautiful black coat that shined so much she looked slick. When she was around 3 her coat began to present the described problems. So I treated with the thought that I had eliminated it. Then she was bred at the age of 7 and out of a litter of 5, 4 was presented with the condition.

I treated again and waited. We bred he again March of this year under the impression that we cured the condition. She whelped 4 pups 2 buckskins & 2 blacks. My brother in life picked out 1 of the black females. And all was looking good but then the female we kept here started the signs of coat and skin issues. The very next day my bro calls me with ther news that his was going through the same concerns. Now get this the buckskin ones that went in two different directions are unscathed. With her age my plans are to get her bred one last time. And this will be #3 and if all works out, her first and last back to back litters.

Take it for what it's worth, from a guy who has tried a ton of health problems on for size in the hope of perpetuating the best of said dog......most times, it don't work out and is not worth it.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone, but the fact is, dogs who throw health problems really shouldn't be bred unless there is a level of positive that is truly, extremely unique. To be honest, there's not that much of that category out there as much as some may try to sell that there is.

There are too many very good animals out there with little to zero health issues or behavioral problems to use instead of dogs that will perpetuate a problem. Life is too short.

With that being said, I did just happen to pick up an outstanding bitch, in her day, who has a pretty severe gum disease problem. However, that's not something that should pass along, but rather is something environmental. LOL....SO, I guess I'm still out there trying to create or re-create that something special too. However, I've been burned BAD with the mange stuff so I stay very far away clear with that stuff now.

Good topic of discussion.

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Originally Posted by thefoodchain

The gyp in question hasn't been over bred. The irony is she's has only been bred twice and I've had her since she was 9 weeks. As a pup she had the most beautiful black coat that shined so much she looked slick. When she was around 3 her coat began to present the described problems. So I treated with the thought that I had eliminated it. Then she was bred at the age of 7 and out of a litter of 5, 4 was presented with the condition.

I treated again and waited. We bred he again March of this year under the impression that we cured the condition. She whelped 4 pups 2 buckskins & 2 blacks. My brother in life picked out 1 of the black females. And all was looking good but then the female we kept here started the signs of coat and skin issues. The very next day my bro calls me with ther news that his was going through the same concerns. Now get this the buckskin ones that went in two different directions are unscathed. With her age my plans are to get her bred one last time. And this will be #3 and if all works out, her first and last back to back litters.

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Two things come to mind then:

1) Are you feeding raw or kibble? I have seen certain dogs with "mange problems" while fed kibble go on to have superb coats when switched to raw ... there are, literally, thousands of testimonials all over the world to this effect. Therefore, at the end of the day, a lot of the so-called "coat problems" dogs get in fact simply turn out to be dogs that can't take being fed kibbled dogfood (which they're really not designed to eat) ... but prove to be perfectly normal and healthy dogs when fed raw, which is what they're supposed to eat.

2) Is the bitch a truly badass bitch? Or is she just "another dog"? If she is just another ho-hum dog, then maybe it's best to breed in another direction. But we are breeding PERFORMANCE ANIMALS, after all, and as such I would take a hit in "coat quality" to breed an ACE bitch over taking a hit in "performance quality" to breed to an average bitch with a pretty coat. Case In Point: The owner of Ch Robert T Jr never bred to the dog because "he had mange on his feet," and yet the dog stopped FOUR 4xWs from making Grand Champion, and he did so without a cutter in his head. I don't know about you, but I personally would rather have a yardful of dogs with that kind of ability, and deal with the "mangy feet" issue, than I would to have a yard full of dogs with "perfect coats" that could never win or compete at that level.

Word! :idea:

So those are the two key points I would come to terms with myself, to help clarify my position on the matter.

Cheers,

Jack

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Originally Posted by thefoodchain

The gyp in question hasn't been over bred. The irony is she's has only been bred twice and I've had her since she was 9 weeks. As a pup she had the most beautiful black coat that shined so much she looked slick. When she was around 3 her coat began to present the described problems. So I treated with the thought that I had eliminated it. Then she was bred at the age of 7 and out of a litter of 5, 4 was presented with the condition.

I treated again and waited. We bred he again March of this year under the impression that we cured the condition. She whelped 4 pups 2 buckskins & 2 blacks. My brother in life picked out 1 of the black females. And all was looking good but then the female we kept here started the signs of coat and skin issues. The very next day my bro calls me with ther news that his was going through the same concerns. Now get this the buckskin ones that went in two different directions are unscathed. With her age my plans are to get her bred one last time. And this will be #3 and if all works out, her first and last back to back litters.

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If its Demodex mange , then there is something wrong with her immune system. You could try to boost her immune system by feeding her better quality feeds like Raw like Jack mentioned and also by supplementing with immune boosting supplements like antioxidants etc etc, while still treating your dog for demodex at the same time.

Like I said earlier not all the pups will inherit the same level of genetic immunity disorder pass down from the mother dog, and some dogs will only show symptoms when they are stressed.

Basically you have to do what you think is best and see if the pro's out weigh the con's.

I have been feeding raw for some years. To this day I haven't had one single health issue with any of my dogs. When fed kibble I had some problems, it ended up with me having to buy 3 different foods. I doubt that our dogs are that much healthier than others, they just get fed better. With that said I think it's all up to you if you think it´s worth all those vet bills and the headache. I'm not saying I never would breed such a dog. I'm just saying it had to be THE BEST bitch by far for me to consider it. Good luck!

:appl:

Thanks for the input from everyone. She's an outstanding animal but it might be best to exclude her from the program.