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I think this can help get this board on the roll and be a great topic. Why or why wouldn't you outcross your family of dogs? If you do believe you need to outcross your family, why so? And how would you outcross(completely different family or same family different strain)
Well I will start by saying I truely believe in linebreeding, with that being said I added Vise-Grip and Bolio blood to my Hooten's Pistol (Nigerino/Chinaman) dogs because they have a lot of bad traits and are very one dimensional in their pure form.
When I say bad traits, they do things like dig you swimming pools and ponds, chew up their feed bowls and water buckets, fight their chains and kennels, and I have seen where they will bark at leaves on the tree all day.
Most of my dogs like to work up front or at the back, they have no idea of what a good defense is and could careless for one. By adding the Vise-Grip and Bolio blood I was able to get them to start at the top and stay out of the way of falling objects when they are working.
My thing is if it ain't broke why waste time re-inventing the wheel. Your dogs should have one main ingredient, that's gameness. If you have that the next step is find a line that is similar bred to yours and add any traits yours lack. If you can't find it in a similar line then look to an out cross. But once you correct the deficiancy you should be line or inbreeding to lock in those traits.
Now if your dogs lack the main ingredient, then you might want to re-evaluate what your feeding. Meaning if my Pistol dogs lack heart I wouldn't look for Bolio or Vise-Grip dogs to add it, I just get rid of the Pistol dogs and work with the Vise-Grip and Bolio dogs.
I love tight breed stuff but some lines don't do good in-breed but do better with the out-cross you have to know your line 1 know what you are looking for what the breeding will do add or take away from what you are trying make happin look at blind billy who was inbreed and out-crossed but with in his line and look what that produced so if you know what pieces of the puzzle to put together and know what picture you are trying to paint it can be good
To me there is no reason to outcross at all, unless 1) you've linebred incorrectly and have bred yourself into a bad position where you are repeatedly and consistently lacking something major in your family of dogs ... or 2) you have your foundation stock in abundance, and you are satisfied with it, and so you decide to do an experimental outbreeding "just to see what you get."Quote:
Originally Posted by wrongway
Some great things can come from experimental crosses, but so too can a lot of useless mutts. Therefore, just to outcross as some sort of "knee-jerk" response to having a linebred dog is the mark of a rank amateur breeder. 90% of every greenhorn will go to a good breeder when they start out, and they'll spend their hard-earned money buying a linebred animal ... and the first thing they'll do is "cross it" to something, as if breeding dogs is some sort of a "crap shoot" or roll of the dice. And then they'll buy some "other" line and do the same thing, repeating this stupidity over and over again, and will never take a forward step as worthy breeders.
After years of failure, most people will then say "all breeding is a gamble," but they will have completely missed the fact that the entire point of linebreeding is to create certainty ... and that they have merely failed to get the point, by repeatedly taking a highly-linebred animal from years of a good breeder's work ... and then just repeatedly "crossing it" ... which is basically taking ALL OF THE CERTAINTY that it took years to create, and just throwing it out the window. Some people get this truth right away, while others never will.
Jack
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KEEPING YOUR BLOOD PURE OR CROSSING????
i have heard many fellers say that they love there line pure with no crossed (redboy ect.) but i always have had in the back of my mind is why keep something pure if it needs crossed unless you are just breeding for show papers.
As i have understood that we cross to either add something that are dog was missing and there other cross had, or trying to produce better quility animals. (now if you are breeding on the papers and brood stock mabey it is they way to go, but just curious and want answers
Why do you think pure lines "need" a cross "in the back of your mind?"Quote:
Originally Posted by YigYang
Ch Red Bull, for example, from my own line made Champion earlier this year, and he was one of the very tightest-bred dogs I have ever put together in my life.
Here are some other famous inbred dogs:
* Gr Ch Tornado (10xW)
* Gr CH Pedro (9xW, ROM)
* Ch Rascal (8xW, 1xL POR)
* Gr Ch Buck (7xW, ROM)
* Gr Ch Sir Dog (7xW)
* Gr Ch Zebo (7xW, ROM)
* Gr Ch BB Red (6xW)
* Gr Ch Banjo (5xW, ROM)
* Gr Ch Happy Jack (5xW)
Now then, ask yourself honestly what "outcrossed" dogs are historically any better than these highly-inbred dogs? And, as a matter of fact, take a look at Gr Ch Zukill (6xW) himself my friend. Really take the time to study his pedigree, and you will see he is nothing but a linebred Hollingsworth/Crum type dog :D Then ask yourself this important question: what "outcrossed" litter did Zukill ever throw that was better than he was ... or that racked-up the 12 wins that he and his linebred littermates racked-up as a litter?
The truth is, sure there are plenty of great outcross dogs, no doubt, but they are NOT any greater than the greatest inbred/linebred dogs, not by a longshot.
With all due respect, you have simply understood wrong. You have been told nonsense by people who themselves never had a real breeding record, they just made "assumptions" about line and inbreeding based on nothing but their imaginations, as opposed to actual experience repeatedly and consistently line- and inbreeding a family of dogs for the right reasons. Sure, there are plenty of paper breeders "keeping it tight" with helpless, inbred bullshit. I agree with you. However, real breeders keep their dogs tight based on their abilities ... which the above pedigrees of these multiple Grand Champions clearly reflect.Quote:
Originally Posted by YigYang
So the ultimate answer to your question about inbreeding all boils down to SELECTION, nothing more, and if you can remember just one thing from this post it is this:
[center:7srxgg1c]"There is no such thing as breeding 'too tight';
There is only 'poor selection.'"[/center:7srxgg1c]
SELECTION IS EVERYTHING. So the best advice I can possibly give you would be to really, truly take the time to read those two family breeding articles I posted up at the top of this breeding sub-forum, because I can tell you based on 20+ years breeding nothing but the same family that these principles are 100% true. I don't need to outcross to anything; I can stay within my own line/yard and continue to produce dogs that will whip the competition far more often than they'll ever lose to it ... just like they have been doing all along.
Cheers,
Jack
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If a breeder was down to the last dog of his family and wanted to use that dog to start over he would have to cross it with something. This often happens when doggers don't let the blood out.
Well said, Stonewall. Every time I talk to someone who "won't let the blood out," I think to myself of saying, "Never keep all your eggs in one basket," as all it takes it ONE bad thing to happen and there goes a bloodline.
i thought the culling of bad traits were related to those in the pit ?
This is a very good thread. I just recently did a outcross in hopes of adding in more bottom on consistancy, along with having more high strung, game dogs. Although the stud is proven and very talented animal, i only expect him to produce the average of his genetic make-up which is below average. My question is... With using 2 heavily linebred/inbred dog of different anciestry, does that actually increase the chances of success or the opposite??
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=406531
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurePit19
It really depends on the dogs used, and (unfortunately) there is no 100% way to predict what is going to happen. If we could hit a Grand Slam with every outcross we'd all be rich :mrgreen:
Certainly, there have been some Grand Slam outcrosses, with game-changing results: the Chavis' Ch Yellow John/Miss Jocko breeding, the Yellow/Dolly breeding, etc. The trouble is, most outcrosses are not so successful :cry:
I do believe that if you're using two super-clean-bred specimens, of excellent ancestry and high-percentage overall quality, with lines the are known for having traits which complement the other, that your chances are excellent of achieving a reasonable set of breeding goals ... but whether you'll hit a Grand Slam or not depends on a little luck too 8-)
Jack
It all depends on the genetic make up of the animals used in the breeding. Based on what you've stated about the stud that you bred to, your chances of success sound slim. If he is inbred from below average genetics thats what he is going to contribute.Quote:
Originally Posted by PurePit19
Well i know i stated that he's from below average gene pool, i mean the lonzo line as a hole. The line does not have a high percentage production rate as far as performance goes. But the line does through intensity, durability, strength and mouth...which my stud does have along with traits the line is not so known for, such as, smarts and the ability to pace himself. My concern or what im trying to weed out are some of the common traits the lonzo line is typically known for that are negative.
Does your male come from a good litter?
From what ive heard, his litter turned out pretty good. But i haven't seen any of them first hand.
Well, if the information is credible, then there's a reasonable shot.
The bottomside is bred real strong on dogs more active today, and while the topside may not be as mainstream, that doesn't mean it isn't good. If you're pleased with that male there's a good shot at getting something nice.
Each breeding is unique and there's no way to know unless you do it. If It does work out nicely, in a large percentage, what do you plan to do with the pups that are exactly what you'd hoped for?
Jack
Ill say this, hes the only dog i have that would never ever have a price tag. Id be a homeless man with a dog. Lol.
i will build off the exceptional ones, and hopefully incorporate the Crew's Rocky blood that i have into it. I have 4 dogs that i am currently using in my little program.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1
and I'm waiting on this prospect to start working this year. So if he and the bitch from the lonzo/nico Jr breeding prove worthy, i should have something to really work with.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1
Time will tell, and i have pretty good patience.
Well, if that is the way you feel, then you need to go with the way you feel, and what you've seen, and that's it. Whether your opinions pan-out as valid or not will be revealed in time. I felt that way about the quality of Poncho and Missy, and even the quality of the Hollingsworth dogs before that ... and there were a lot of people who scoffed at my ideas ... yet, over time, I passed every single one of the "nay-sayers" up with the family I built up off of these dogs, by sticking to my guns and preserving/developing what I saw in these dogs.
If you feel that passionate about how good this dog of yours is, then that is the fuel that will keep your efforts alive and going, so good luck!
Thanks alot, Jack. The pups are on the ground so I'll find out soon enough, I definitely appreciate all the feedback.
Bump up for 2020...