Jack... What do you look for???

Jack,
I feel you obviously have a good eye when it comes to selecting stock to implement into your program. I also feel it is a lot harder than what people think when it comes time to select one who you feel is worthy of feeding for the next couple years as it matures before determining the dogs axle worthiness. I guess I will start by leaving this post open ended so you can take it the direction you would like and then I will add some more specific questions.

Question one:::

What is the VERY FIRST thing you look for/at in a puppy? How would you make your selection if you went to someone to buy a pup? Is their one thing that sticks out in your mind that you can share with the rest of us to give us something to think about and help develop a more sound selection process?

I realize it is usually a gamble with pups but with a good eye and selection protocol I think you have a better chance at getting something worth feeding. I am so glad I am not just stuck with picking a pup and living with my decision. I have a few that I am able to pull from. Honestly up to this point I have just gotten lucky and got some good ones. As soon as I think I know what im doing my mind has a tendency to get in the way. LoL I need to implement a protocol that keeps most of my emotional criteria out of the equation.

Any and all feedback from everyone welcome. Please share your personal experiences as to successes and failures and why you think how you selected made a difference.
Thanks in advance to all who share.
Eric

I like to pick one with the color the line is based upon and who seems most outgoing to people. The so called firecrackers or shy ones i leave for others to pick. Not saying it gives any more chances picking the right pup but it's just what i feel best with. I think there is plenty of dogman who let others choose before themselves and still get the best dog out of the litter "the hands they're in or??" :lol:

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

Jack,
I feel you obviously have a good eye when it comes to selecting stock to implement into your program. I also feel it is a lot harder than what people think when it comes time to select one who you feel is worthy of feeding for the next couple years as it matures before determining the dogs axle worthiness. I guess I will start by leaving this post open ended so you can take it the direction you would like and then I will add some more specific questions.
Question one:::

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This is an interesting topic actually, because I think everyone wants to be able to magically "know" which are going to be the best pups in their litters. However, when you're a breeder, and while individual superiority is a reality, the real goal should be to produce a litter where every pup is a standout in some way (or, better yet, in the same way you've bred for). In fact, it could properly be said that the easier it is to choose which pup you want from the litter, the worse your breeding is (because the majority are undesirable), whereas the harder it is to decide which pup is best in the litter, the better your overall breeding is (because each littermate stands out in its own way--or, better still, in the same key way).

I mean, after all, if we're breeding for specific traits, the more pups that display the "stamp" of these traits the better the overall litter is ... while the fewer pups that display this "stamp" the more you missed the bullseye (or even the whole target) in your breeding effort.

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

Jack,
Question one:::
What is the VERY FIRST thing you look for/at in a puppy? How would you make your selection if you went to someone to buy a pup? Is their one thing that sticks out in your mind that you can share with the rest of us to give us something to think about and help develop a more sound selection process?

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Well, I am glad you gave me license to take this post in the direction I want, because the first things I look for (soundness/movement) weren't even on your list ... so I took the liberty of adding them :D

IMO, soundness/vigor is different from mere "conformation." For example, you can have a dog with a fine silhouette, and by that I mean pleasing lines, but it just doesn't *BEAM* with vitality or vigor. This is a BRUTAL business we're in, and so to prevail in what may be a 1-, 2-, or 3-hour contest that MF has to have some pizzazz to his ass. He has got to be be FULL OF LIFE, VIGOROUS. And the other thing he needs to do right is move with speed, balance, and precision.

So, to me, it is impossible to pick "just one" thing I look for ... instead, I will say that the first things I look for are soundness/vigor and the way the pup moves. After that, it is intelligence and alertness.

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

Jack,
I realize it is usually a gamble with pups but with a good eye and selection protocol I think you have a better chance at getting something worth feeding.

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It's only a "gamble" if you don't know what you're doing ... because if you really do have a good eye and selection protocol, why then you're stacking the deck (or counting cards) aren't you? ;)

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

Jack,
I am so glad I am not just stuck with picking a pup and living with my decision. I have a few that I am able to pull from. Honestly up to this point I have just gotten lucky and got some good ones. As soon as I think I know what im doing my mind has a tendency to get in the way.

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Well here again though, the better your breeding, the more pups in the litter you'll see having the traits you want ... whereas the worse the breeding, the less pups you'll see exhibiting the traits that you want. The best breedings are those where you can "pick any pup" and have a good shot at getting a damned good bulldog ... whereas the more only "one" pup stands out as a vigorous athlete, while the rest are sulled-up discards (or slow, lumbering oafs), the lousier the breeding is as a whole. (IMO, most litters are full of slow, unathletic slugs.)

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

Jack,
LoL I need to implement a protocol that keeps most of my emotional criteria out of the equation.

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What you need to do is determine what you want most out of your dogs, establish a pattern or "signs" in the dogs of your family which carry these traits, and then learn to "see" these signs (or "stamps") in your pups. However, the only way to be able to do this is with a family breeding program ... no way in hell can a person do this if he's "crossing this to that" all the time ...

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

Jack,

Any and all feedback from everyone welcome. Please share your personal experiences as to successes and failures and why you think how you selected made a difference.
Thanks in advance to all who share.
Eric

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There's mine :mrgreen:

Jack

greaattt post full of good info.

Very nice... Thanks Jack. Will put up a couple thoughts later. awesome post

come on guys this is a great thread for us asprising dog men !!!

These signs or stamps you refer to can obviously be difficult to assess in smaller pups? Correct? How would you go about determining if your dogs posses qualities such as mouth, wind, ability, intense drive? I could see how you can establish if your dog has intelligence by his overall display of mannerisms. But with the previous list I am stumped. Drive I guess you could see based on demeanor and alpha male qualities. What a few old timers told me is that you really dont get a true feel for a dog till it is away from the herd and has a opportunity to figure out for itself who he/she is. I don't know how much stock I put in that though. I feel from the minute that little sucker opens it's eyes it is telling you something if you know how to hear what he is saying. I may be making shit up in my mind but some of them right out the gate could just look up at me and just from the way that they carried themselves and the look in their eye I kept them around. Well, a few generations later and... I got lucky. I consider it luck simply because a lot better dogmen then me have made their selection through a process and not came up with dogs near like mine. I dont say that in a egotistical way(very proud,not vain) it just is what it is. I have piggybacked off other peoples breeding programs with my own little twist to things. It is not like I came up with a new cross or some shit. I just took the best I could lay my hands on and bred their asses together. So far so good. Now a few generations later it is really time to start seeing dogs that are a product of my thoughts, ideas, and program either sink or swim.

I just hope that I can create a protocol that will enable me to in essence write a list of qualities down that I am looking for in pups. From that list be able to ascertain exactly which ones out of a big litter I am able to part with and not feel like I gave up "that one".

Thanks for allowing me a cool place to get this shit out of my head and in print so I can see which direction I need to take my thoughts in.
Cheers to you Jack...

Eric

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

These signs or stamps you refer to can obviously be difficult to assess in smaller pups? Correct?

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Incorrect. Jezebel, for example, was the smallest pup in her litter (Poncho/Screamer) ... and I knew she was the best pup in that litter by 4 weeks of age ... even though it turned out to be an all-game litter. Every dog in that litter had perfect (and I mean perfect) conformation. Every dog in that litter at some point got stretched out and proved to be game (honestly, except Jezebel, who waxed every dog I put her with ... including spotting weight against 2 in a row ... she waxed them both). Every dog in that litter who was bred produced winners or DG losers. So it was a helluva good litter, but still, ability-wise, Jezebel was head-n-shoulders over the others. And I could just "see" that she would be better than the rest by her intensity, by her will to dominate, by what a devious and troublesome pup she was, and by the way she moved. When the other pups would congregate at the fence "to come see me" ... little Jezebel would use them all as stepping stones and climb up on top of them ... and then she would start climbing the fence, using her arms as hands, and even her mouth to get higher-and-higher. She was always one step ahead of everyone else and she demanded to be "on top" of everything else.

So when you ask, "How can you see these things?", my question to you is, "How can you not?!" You could see Jezebel's superiority a mile away, even though she was the smallest. There was nothing weak about her smallness, she was a perfect physical specimen, that just happened to be small. Regarding small size, take a look at the most athletic human beings in the world pound-for-pound ... gymnasts ... and you will see they sure are not big people ... but you can also see the athletic superiority of a gymnast (to the common slug of a person) in the physiques gymnasts have and in the way they move ;)

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

How would you go about determining if your dogs posses qualities such as mouth, wind, ability, intense drive? I could see how you can establish if your dog has intelligence by his overall display of mannerisms. But with the previous list I am stumped.

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By knowing what to look for ;)

First of all, I don't breed for mouth, I let it come and go as it pleases. Still, certain pups that come out with heavier-than-average mouth are easy to spot as the pups play with your hands; some pups clearly have leverage when they bite while others do not, and crush when they're not even trying, so that is pretty easy to see IMO. Regarding air and stamina ... I breed for air sir ... it is simply in the bloodline now (but, sure, some have it exceptionally-well while others not so much). But, here again, all you have to do is use your eyes when your puppies play ... and when you see pups with their tongues hanging out and they're huffin' & puffin' after playing ... you can pretty much figure that this is what they're going to do when they're in there for real ... and when you see pups that are tireless and breathing through their noses as they continue to romp and play-wrestle, you can pretty much figure those are the ones who will rock-n-roll tirelessly for real too. Common sense.

As for the others, ability and drive, again spotting "ability" is determined by how they move, which is what I said at the beginning. You either know an athlete when you see one or you do not. I know an athlete when I see one and I can see it by the way they move: their speed, timing, reflexes, economy of effort versus wasted effort, etc. I can't explain "color" to the color-blind. A person either can "see color too" or they cannot. I can just spot ability in a pup by the way it moves.

Regarding gameness, this trait canNOT be fully-proven in pups, but again it is BRED FOR. For example, when you have deep gameness not just in the individual you're breeding to, but deeply-rooted in terms assloads of game dogs as its ancestors, spread throughout in high percentages of littermates the individual (and not just in the dog you breed), you don't worry about gameness that much. It's just there. It's only when you're breeding "the one" game dog in his litter (where the rest quit) that you need to worry about gameness.

For example, Wildchild bought 12 dogs from me, and has shown several. Of the multiple dogs he's rolled and shown, only 2 have lost (one was with that son of Icon that he thinks he got rubbed with, who was a mile ahead and then stopped taking hold after the sponging--and then who won 2 more after that), the other was with a son of Rocko who lost DEAD GAME. All the other dogs have kicked ass and won him the money. Wildchild could hardly get a game dog before he bought dogs from me ... and he's cleared-out almost all his other dogs and is using mine now ... and now he simply is confident that his dogs will be game. You have to be selective when you breed to have confidence in gameness. This means passing up on "game dogs" if their littermates weren't game. When you breed exclusively to game dogs from game litters, and if you stick to that credo for years, you will eventually not worry about getting game dogs anymore.

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

What a few old timers told me is that you really dont get a true feel for a dog till it is away from the herd and has a opportunity to figure out for itself who he/she is. I don't know how much stock I put in that though. I feel from the minute that little sucker opens it's eyes it is telling you something if you know how to hear what he is saying. I may be making shit up in my mind but some of them right out the gate could just look up at me and just from the way that they carried themselves and the look in their eye I kept them around. Well, a few generations later and... I got lucky. I consider it luck simply because a lot better dogmen then me have made their selection through a process and not came up with dogs near like mine. I dont say that in a egotistical way(very proud,not vain) it just is what it is.

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You must keep in mind that there are a lot of stupid, ignorant old-timers. I have known several actually. They knew how to call a weight, and they knew certain specialty skills as it related to matches, but they really had no freakin idea how to breed dogs (which is why they bought most of the great dogs they had). I promise you, those old-timers who actually breed their own stock, and they're still winning with them, they can almost invariably select the best pups right away.

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

I have piggybacked off other peoples breeding programs with my own little twist to things. It is not like I came up with a new cross or some shit. I just took the best I could lay my hands on and bred their asses together. So far so good. Now a few generations later it is really time to start seeing dogs that are a product of my thoughts, ideas, and program either sink or swim.

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In every field of endeavor there is, everybody piggy-backs off of the great minds before them. Scientists don't start from scratch, trying to figure out what's-what. They first get trained to understand the data, the theories, and the proven facts of those before them ... and from that foundational springboard they try to advance into uncharted territory.

And so it should be with these dogs. You first learn "what you're told" by the old-timers ... then you learn to separate fact from fiction through your own experiences ... and then (once you've developed a clear understanding of your own), you begin to totally discard outmoded beliefs and practices that your own experience belies ... while you cherish the time-proven facts that stand firm to your own observations ... and then from that point you begin implementing new (or at least clandestine) practices/theories of your own. That is what I did, and that is what every thinking person does.

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

I just hope that I can create a protocol that will enable me to in essence write a list of qualities down that I am looking for in pups. From that list be able to ascertain exactly which ones out of a big litter I am able to part with and not feel like I gave up "that one".

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You will not need to write anything down, you will just know ... or not know ... depending on the level and consistency you bring to your own efforts. Sure, I write a lot and I can quantify the things that I look for in my pups, but I sure don't go out there with a list when I go to watching them. I just watch them and I know. When I have really good litters, it is always the ones where I hate myself for selling any of them :D

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Originally Posted by ScratchAndGO

Thanks for allowing me a cool place to get this shit out of my head and in print so I can see which direction I need to take my thoughts in.
Cheers to you Jack...
Eric

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You're welcome ... and thank you for asking such interesting and poignant questions,

Jack

Wow I had to save this thread. For a guy Getting ready to pick out his first dog in 13 yrs this is priceless. Jack from what I keep hearing from you is a true dog man is who u r or ur just not ? It has to be something natural to be great at it ? Am I wrong in thinking that is the message u pushing home ?

No, this is not true in every case or even most cases.

I did have certain aptitudes when I first started, true, but I also made a TON of mistakes!

However, I did something most people did not do, and that was stick to the same bloodline throughout my entire experience, so I am simply going to KNOW MY DOGS better than anyone is going to know a group of "just bought" animals ...

Look at the distinction between being a "natural" and being "taught" like going to school and taking a really hard class that most people can't pass. For example, no one (no matter how intelligent) is going to ace a semester of Chemistry, without first getting the education. If any person tries to take a final Chemistry exam, on the day they first start class, they will simply fail. Now, some people will fail at the end of the semester too, same as in the beginning, because they simply do not have the aptitude for chemistry. But even those with the aptitude for chemistry still need to put in the time and get the education.

And those people who do have the aptitude to be able to do well in chemistry, and if they continue to learn and study nothing but chemistry for 20-30 years of intensive effort, are simply going to KNOW chemistry better than some guy who "just took his first chemistry class," even if the new guy has some aptitude of his own ;)

Jack

this is a great discussion!

Understood