In your opinions what traits do you like and dislike in the Frisco line? All opinions, comments, and advice welcome
Thanks in advance
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In your opinions what traits do you like and dislike in the Frisco line? All opinions, comments, and advice welcome
Thanks in advance
This may not be a popular opinion, but I do have first-hand experience dealing with a few Frisco dogs, and I saw the Frisco dog himself personally on Garner's yard back in 1990.
With that said, I personally would have never based my yard on a shy dog like Frisco. Yes, I realize the dog has produced multiple Champions, but considering that he has thousands of offspring that really doesn't mean much. I have seen several painfully-shy Frisco dogs, but I also realize that there are outgoing Frisco dogs as well.
On the good end, if you get a good Frisco dog, you should have a high-ability dog with an excellent mouth and it will be at least game enough to win (while it's ahead). While I know there are game individuals of this bloodline, I don't believe any knowledgeable dogman would call this a high-percentage-game line of dogs. But if you have a good animal of this line, it should be an athletic (possibly devastating) animal with enough gameness to win. Yet even some of these will be shy dogs, though there are "normal" dogs of this line too.
On the bad end, if you get a bad Frisco dog, you well get a painfully-shy useless animal that is afraid of its own shadow. I was told directly by Ed Faron, Garner's friend at the time, that Frisco himself was so shy he couldn't even be rolled in front of a crowd and would freeze-up and not scratch if there was any noise. What I myself saw of the animal was a dog that was always on the wrong side of the chain (meaning, instead of coming up to you to be petted ... was hiding in fear of you on the other side of his chain spot).
It is my personal opinion that, no matter how devastating a dog like this might be ... if you allow him to be in a perfect world in his own chain space (where no one makes any noise) ... that out in the real world of open competition where scream and make noise at pitside the dog couldn't cut it (which is why he was given to Garner) ... and so I would not consider such an animal to be "what I want to make more of" ...
That is said with no bad motives, but it is my honest opinion.
Jack
I have had it crossed with Jeep Redboy blood two different ways, One off a son of Elmo bred to a daughter of Gr. Ch A.C., the other was off of Garner and Powers Diesel(Ch. Dynomite littermate brother)bred to a daughter of St. Benedicts Baiey who was a 50/50 Jeep Redboy/Frisco cross herself. They were really intense dogs who knew how to finish although the one off of Diesel was a complete madman he was extremly fight crazy and would bite you if not released quick enough. I Really like that cross everyway I had it it worked.Had some stuff down from Mojo that I think was the best, those dogs were the only dogs I had that were not crosses, the line was kept true and not peddled like a lot of other Frisco dogs
Some of the gamest, and overall best dogs I've seen came down from the frisco/lee ling stuff. Don't know much about frisco dogs of today. But I seriously doubt they are of the quality as they were in the 90's
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurstmob
I have heard that Kelly's Mojo Rising really did produce some good, game dogs too ... which only goes to show that there are certain pockets of any line that are superior to others. These same dogmen didn't like the Frisco dogs in general, but yet they made Champion with MacGuyver.
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I have heard by some who saw dogs like Gr CH Shotsie, and there can be no doubt these were truly great dogs, though there was a lot of extra top-shelf Bolio blood in there to help them be that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by skipper
I know Ed Center has some good Frisco blood that he likes, and I actually owned a bitch of his named Blade, who was a solid bitch (albeit a little shy). I bred her to my U-Nhan-Rha dog and got some pretty good dogs out of it. Ed's a good dogman who keeps his dogs to high standard.
I guess as with any mass-produced line there are going to be pockets of them that are held to a high standard, and so really are excellent dogs, while most are going to be paper-bred nothings, forever being bred & changing hands amongst the masses.
Jack
Nice looking dogs there jack. We've had good results with Frisco crosses.
REMO`S GORM This one is one of the best dogs I've seen. Beat 2 really good ones, Facedog and a finisher to boot.
FEZ! This one beat a ch and a 1xw. Hell of a dog.
KELSO! THE gamest dog I've seen. Won over a 1 xw in over 2hours.
The missing dog in the pedigree is this one. (EVOLUTION KNLS)MACHO (1XW) ROM
Very nice dogs there Skipper.
I'v also owned dogs from the same Novosel Frisco/Leeling blood that you have in your dogs pedigrees. One of the gamest dogs, if not the gamest i'v ever owned was from that blood, funny though as he was the exact polar opposite of what i'v read and heard a Frisco dog should be.
Thank you. I don't know what Frisco dogs are supposed to be like. But i certainly like these ones. Tough and all round gamedogs, very capable of handling pressure. And the frank white stuff goes very well with it.
You're welcome and thank you for sharing your pedigrees too. (FYI, I went ahead and altered the pedigrees to the "public" version so everyone could see them ;) )Quote:
Originally Posted by skipper
That Gorm dog is seriously lean and slick-looking! However, genetically-speaking (while I do see the Frisco blood there through the intensely-bred Dunder) ... there is more Bolio/Tombstone blood in Gorm than anything else.
And he looks it!Quote:
Originally Posted by skipper
There is lots of old Bolio/Tombstone blood running through this one too (though not quite as much), but the addition of the old Mt.Man blood makes it a bit different.
Nice-looking brother to Fez ... really spectacular physique on him 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by skipper
They all really look like topshelf athletes, so thanks for sharing!
Jack
Thnx for the kind words Jack. I meant to put that into my post as well. I do not consider these dogs Frisco dogs per say, but I really like the Bolio/tombstone-Eli/carver blend. Just wanted to share these dogs purely out of the topic of this thread. Since we liked these dogs so much we are repeating this breeding very soon. Space is always an issue though.
Which breeding are you repeating, the one that produced Kelso and Fez?Quote:
Originally Posted by skipper
Yes! Gorm / Miss Francess. There were one more male from that litter that lost in an hour against one of the top players out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Nothing wrong with that.
Macho was my dog. He made ROM in just 4 breedings. I can tell you this. He was TO THIS DAY the HARDEST ROCKET SCRATCHING DOG that I have ever seen. His daughter Ch.Xena (bred by your's truly) and son Ch.Awesomebuck were the same.. ROCKETS and deadgame. He was a PREPOTENT producer. He beat a dog that was going for his grandchampionship . That dog had beat Havannah Chico, Cuban Missing Link, and Strictly Business. Here is his pedigree (Diesel) I think of that dog EVERY day. he was PERFECT! could finish EARLY, you couldn't HOLD him, and was a f*cking BEAUTIFUL SPECIMEN. I loved that dog. I then purchased his sister Macha who ended up putting me on the map when I bred her to Ch.357 to get Gr.Ch.Machobuck. I LOVED THAT DOG WITH ALL MY HEART, and up until Machobear II came along, I never had one anything close to him. Just a piece of History fellas. With all due respect skipper, it is my FIRM opinion, that if that dog was the gamest you ever saw, and the brother was an ACE, it had a large part to do with the Awesome Dolly bitch. Those dogs HAD IT ALL. That is the very reason that I am sticking to that line.Quote:
Originally Posted by skipper
Thnx for your input evo. I don't doubt for a second that much of their quality's comes from Awesome dolly. Dunder was a super solid dog from one of the gamest frisco strains there is. Miss francess is a serious bitch. Probably one the most devastating bitches I've seen. The point is,there are solid dogs behind this breeding. But I'm with you. I really like the blood that comes with the dolly bitch.
WOW! Very nice History! 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
These dogs have done well and seem to be phenomenal. However. I would not call them Frisco Dogs. I would call them Bolio-Tombstone X Chinaman dogs. On the topside of KELSO, Dunder is is 62.5% Chinaman, 50% Frisco, and 34.3% Bolio-Tombstone. When they bred that to Awesome Dolly, it made it 31.25% Chinaman and only 25% Frisco, and 48.4% Bolio-Tombstone adding 18.75% Redboy-Jocko to the mix. Take that and breed it to the the Miss Francis female and you get 12.5% Frisco only. but you add more Chinaman through the Earl Jr stuff. That is where it gets interesting. Frances is 37.5% Chinaman and 25% Bolio-Tombstone through Garner's Spice, 25% Spider Bitem POR, and is 0% Frisco.Quote:
Originally Posted by skipper
The pedigree breakdown is that those dogs are 36.7% Bolio-Tombstone, 34.375% Chinaman, 12.5% Spider Bitem POR, 12.5% Frisco only, 9.375&% Redboy-Jocko through Awesome Dolly. What probably makes it work is that the Bolio-Tombstone in Lee Ling clicks with the Hollingsworth in Awesome Dolly AND Garner's Spice on the bottom side. You CANNOT call these Frisco dogs being that the genetic contribution is only 12.5%, if you do that.. you might as well say it's a redboy-jocko dog since it is only a few points lesser percentage (9.375%). Frisco plays a VERY small role in this breeding.
I appreciate your input, but I've never called these dogs Frisco dogs. As I said in an earlier post "Frisco crosses" meaning the Gorm dog. I am fully aware that Kelso and Fez aren't Frisco dogs. Maybe I should have been more clear about that. Just wanted to show what that Frisco/lee ling cross (gorm) Not only what he accomplished as a performer but also as a producer. If the topic would've been Chinaman or Bolio/tombstone dogs I would've posted these dogs here as well.
I got dogs bred down from the Novosel stuff also and it have worked out good for me aswell. Alot of people are bashing and talking smack about the dogs but the records speaks for itself. The dogs are out there and doing well !
Me Too, we got dogs directly off Novosel that he got directly off TG. They was good all round dogs, plenty game, good mouth and high prey drive.
I had own that was just like that he would destoy a dog if it was just me and him, but in a crowd he would be to scared to even move. Then i have some that will bite the shit out of you too.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=6821
Never really liked the Frisco stuff till I saw this one. Game and rough!
So we added her to our program.
Not my kind of dogs these frisco's
These are some that made huge impact in South Africa.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...=5337&sex_id=2
As I mentioned a few months back, I owned a fairly heavy (59.375%) Frisco bitch named Center's Blade. She produced a DG winner for me when bred to my U-Nhan-Rha dog.
Ability-wise, she was strong but average, and temperament-wise she was mildly shy, but not too bad.
There are good and bad dogs in every line. Although some may have higher percentages in there line then others , it is not due to the line in itself but based more on each individual breeders yard.
Ca Jack I must say here publicly that you're a class act. The truth is T.G. Is a good friend and confidante. When my brother and wife battled cancer he was there, my Mom passed on to glory. He was there so it's hard to see and read people tear at the character of a friend. Many years ago I asked T.G. For an opinion on you. And he was very complementary. He admired your brain. I asked cause at the time I was looking to add some "Poncho" blood to the yard back when you were in the volunteer state of Tennessee. So no matter how much people hate on T.G. & California Jack. You guys are still at the top of the food chain. IMHO.
What is your opinion on this kind of frisco cross?
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=5322
I think that is a good cross. We have some dogs that are CH Spike blood with some Tonka Red Baron blood and they are some good dogs.
BDB has a lot of good dogs with Frisco blood mixed up with the Alligator blood too.
You shold get some match dogs right there!
I dont use this blood anymore ........good and bad ones like other lines....had two that really excelled
Years ago when I was introduced to bulldogs, a guy I was aquatinted with purchased a 2xw from someone who found himself on hard times. He was a son of Kelly's Mojo Rising. A big brindle male who was calm and alway's quiet. He had a great disposition about him. The new owners yard was't far from my friends yard, so they would often school dogs together. One day the owner come home to find Lil Mojo missing. None of his other dogs were touched so he thought someone stole him. Surely, if he got loose he would have came home to a blood bath. The neighbors haven't seen or heard any suspicious vehicles, so the thief must have walked through the woods. He came to my friends house and asked us if we heard his dogs or saw anything. We said know and began asking others and looking for the dog. My friends son told us he saw a big dog loose walking into the woods. Believe it or not, when we found him he was siting in a corner of the box that they used to school dogs in. He walked through two dog yards and didn't touch a single dog only to go and jump in the box. I haven't seen a Frisco dog since then that I have liked as much as I liked that one. My kennel partner and I have purchased dogs off of El Negro and Dynamite hoping to get another Lil Mojo but nothing has worked out so far.
Lil Mojo was 4 or 5 when he was purchased and this was around 99 or 2000
Kelly is a very good friend of mine as well as the guys from krunch. Impo the best of the mojo dogs come when you add Kelly's taz in the mix. Ch macguyver, ch Meister, ch Bentley, marley, satch(2:12 winner after an hr & 1/2 beating) etc etc all are descendants of taz. I also think when krunch bred hootens miss chinaman to mojo and chinaboy they produced some very important dogs. Obviously the mojo x little cow breeding produced gr ch Goldie who was a hell of a dog! There were a couple from those breedings that were 2hr dogs. Goldie was just to much of a monster to have to go that long. Why she was not bred to Meister or macguyver still has me shaking my head to this day.
You got a good dog in little mojo. I loved that dog as a pup! He was a tall rangy pup but sounds like he filled out nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by ResidentKennel
I owned 2 litter sisters to Lil Mojo. One became 2xw, 1xgl to a CH. One of the greatest displays of gamenees ever seen, wayyyy behind for nearly 2 hours, came back up top to earn the W. This over a big name in the game, in front of some of the biggest players in the games history.
Seen good hounds....no doubt they paper hung though....a bunch of redboy in them....met an european guy about 10 years ago that had a male of cottinghams redman bred to a double daughter of frisco....plus the look of the dogs changed and performance levels from atleast 12 years ago....if you are breeding a family of dogs they dont change all of a sudden without something being added....jack is right about the stuff from ed...they had a violent mouth but if they couldnt get in done in 30-45 they ran for the hills....addind your blood probably made them stick it out
Mike Kellys dogs absolutely not paper hung
Garner himself....i know some people who had the real dogs off frisco....never seen a mojo dog but heard nothing but good things on the line of hounds
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=33718
This dog is absolutely bred this way! Alive and well at 11yrs old.
This is a letter that was sent to Jack Kelly,editor of The Sporting Dog Journal in May - June 1997.The letter was sent by a guy called CHAINSAW,and he writes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Officially Retired
Dear Journal-
I've heard one story after another about Garner's FRISCO over the past several years.I have heard that he was a 2X winner before he was sold in North Carolina and even that the current owner took him back because he had been mistreated by his former owner.I will tell everyone the truth because I was the fellow that owned FRISCO for a year and a half and I am the guy who sent him there.
FRISCO started out in the Bay Area of California at a couple of different dogmens yards.He was moved around so often because he was extremely shy and not kept in good health.It was up in Oregon in May of 1988 where a bunch of us gathered for a bbq. After we were through we decided to take a look at FRISCO.He disappointed everyone.His owner at the time V.R wanted to put him down right after he quit,but I talked him into letting me take him home and work with him a little.My brother and I did get him to come out of his shell a little but never to the point where we would have bet a dime on him winning a match.Since FRISCO'S mother,CHINA GIRL had quit in 15 minutes,we were very skeptical about FRISCO to start with.Finally,one day we decided to try FRISCO again,against a scatter bred dog that was sent to us by a friend in California.This dog had never been touched before,but was very hot and had weighed about 5lbs smaller than FRISCO.He tore into FRISCO and had him singing in three minutes.We separated them and tried to scratch FRISCO and he wouldn't scratch.My brother took the other dog who was screaming to go back,and I turned FRISCO loose.He just stood there and made no attempt to look for the other dog.I called V.R and told him and said that I should have gotten rid of him 18 months ago.He told me that Tom wanted the dog and the next day I shipped him to North Carolina.I had never been paid for the shipping charges or the kennel.I was given a pup off of FRISCO in what I took to be compensation for the shipping charges.He quit in 6 minutes.
If anyone finds this hard to believe,there are a lot of people who can verify what I have said.I'm not looking to start a ragging war with anyone,just to end the rumor's that I hear everyday about FRISCO.
CHAINSAW.