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what makes a cur dog for u JACK? ...........and what signifies that of game ............i ask these questions because i personally have seen dogs stratch until they coundnt and still were labelled curs .........for some a dog must be dead game in order to be labelled game those are not my beliefs ........what are ur ideas on this topic ????? JACK
The word "cur" is over-used IMO ... and is now almost invariably used in a pejorative/derogatory fashion. If we want to pull out the ol' microscope and discuss some basic definitions (in a cool and reasonable manner), that is fine and I am happy to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by puma
That said, in my judgment a "cur" is a dog that acts cowardly at some point. What I mean by this is not every dog who stops is a "cur." For example, if a bulldog fights his heart out for 1:20, but is really getting beat badly and stands the line, yeah he is definitely not "dead game," but IMO he is not a "cur" (coward) either ... unless he screams or tries to jump.
What I am getting at is, while I agree quitting is never good, I don't think every quitter is a "cur." A dog that quits on top is a cur. A dog that screams and jumps the pit is a cur (rank cur). A dog that is frustrated for :30 and stands there, basically unhurt, is a cur.
But a bulldog who stands the line after giving it his all, in a life-and-death struggle, all broken- and chopped-up to pieces is no "cur" in my opinion. He may not be "dead game," but by God he is no punk or coward either.
To me, "gameness" is simply the will to win, and it is present (or absent) to varying degrees among individual dogs. A "dead game" dog is simply a dog that "wants to win" all the way up to the last breath of life leaves his body. Most true bulldogs are reasonably game (meaning, they have enough gameness to compete), but are not DEAD game. At some point, most dogs will "stop," but IMO this doesn't necessarily make them curs (cowards). They're fairly game dogs, just not DEAD game.Quote:
Originally Posted by puma
I agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by puma
It is a matter of simple logic: dead game means the dog will continue to "try to win" until he is dead. If you can't kill him, you will lose to him eventually on the scratch line (unless you have a DG dog too).
A "fairly" game dog simply means an animal will really try his ass off to win in a good effort ... but, if he's busted up too bad, or gets too tired, at some point his "gameness" (will to win) will cease and he'll stand there, but he is more than willing to try his best ... until his life or energy level reaches a critical point. Meanwhile, a "cur" (a coward) will either quit in some disgraceful/cowardly way ... or will simply quit while he's ahead, showing absolutely no resolve or "gameness" whatsoever.
Too many people confuse the word "gameness" with "dead gameness." The word "game" or "gameness" is actually useless by itself. It's like the word "tall." If I say so-and-so is "tall," what does that mean really? Tall in comparison to what? Very tall, fairly tall, etc. Therefore, when a man says a dog is "game," he really hasn't defined anything exactly ... but, for the most part, he essentially means the animal has shown a good desire to win without making a bad move ... but that does not mean the dog is DEAD game. It only means the animal has displayed a reasonable degree of gameness (will to win) to put him at a competitive level. When a man says a dog is DEEP game, he's basically saying this dog was taken pretty close to the "death" mark ... without ever making a bad move and still expressing the "will to win" regardless of his nearly-fatal injuries/fatigue.
Hope this clarifies!
Jack
Thank u Jack it sure does but may i add in my belief there is no certainty in these dog a dead game dog in 2012 may be matched a yr later and refuse to scratch ... there it little certainty in the word GAME in my belief ....................what do u think ???
One can't be deadgame and be matched again :shock: , hence the term DEADgame :?Quote:
Originally Posted by puma
yes he cant that does not mean the dog is dead it mean he is a dog that has to be killed in order for his challenger to win again him
can****
if you get hem off the hog before he's dead there is no way to know, and if the hog kills him before he can make he scratch there is no way to tell either. imo, screw all these terms. if a dog makes the scratch after being severely injured, he did all you could ask for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl Tudor
Okay, Puma, you wandered off the path and got lost here.
A dog that loses dead game cannot be matched again. By the very fact he proved he was "dead" game means he died and is DEAD.
Jack
i understand thanks again Jack
Oh sure, give Jack all the credit for saying the same thing I did :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by puma
Excellent veiws Jack.....that's a read all beginners need to read
I've seen some severly injured dogs counted out while scratching and have heard some fools call them curs because the were counted out trying to get across.
How can you in good conscious count out a dog that is scratching.
Thats why I prefer Cajun Rules. In a nutshell rule #11 states that a dog must start across the moment the referee say release, (Hesitate and lose. Don't hesitate and continue). Simple as that.
http://www.sporting-dog.com/select-p...ajunrules.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by STONEWALL
It's a damned shame the thoughtless stupidity that some truly game, truly wonderful dogs have to endure in this sport. Would lick an owner to death, would sleep at his feet, would protect him at night while he slept, would die to prevent him from harm, and will fight as hard as they can ... until they just can't get across anymore ... and the mindless bozo will just toss him over the wall and plug him as a "reward" because he can't be bothered with the aftercare for a "loser" ... just makes me mad every time I think of it.
Jack
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by backcome
Great views from everyone, and I completely agree with Jack, the word "cur" (as well as the word "game.") are tossed around way too much, without any thought behind the meaning. Like these are the only two words that CAN be associated with our dogs. Reminds me of this quote. "Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end, we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that will ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten..... every year fewer and fewer words, and the range of consciousness always a little smaller." It applies not only to our dog community, but to society in general, sadly.
And why is it that people always put a time on gameness ?
What do you mean exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by lilpitgirl
game tested 30 minutes = game
going over the hour in pull = game
why? stupid... sry, uneducated right jack :lol:
I agree "proven gameness" isn't a function of time, per se, but yet I do believe a certain amount of time has to elapse before you can call a dog game.Quote:
Originally Posted by R2L
For example, I rolled Stormbringer with Gusto back in 1999, and Stormy was on a down dog within fifty seconds, immediately shot deep in the windpipe, and by 0:02 (yes, TWO minutes) I had to get Stormy out of there as he was choking Gusto TF out. The Gusto dog would literally have been DEAD in less than five minutes. I tried them again, and it was the same thing all over again. Gusto was kind of a scrawny dog, whereas Stormbinger had the most awesome body strength of any dog I have ever seen, and when you put the two together it was just an utter blowout.
Now, when separated, Gusto screamed and screamed and screamed for more ... but could I really call him "game" because he was still going berserk after a 0:02 roll ... even though I don't think he would have lived much longer than that? :rolleyes:
Interestingly, Gusto later won GIS in :44 over a son of Eliiot's Six Bits, and then he lost DG in 1:58 to Roadblock (winning another GIS), so in point of fact the dog was a proven DG dog ... but to call him as such over his getting steamrolled by Stormbringer would have been a joke.
So, yes, SOME amount of time has to pass for a dog to properly be called game ... which will have to be enough time to show 1) a certain amount of fatigue, 2) a certain amount of abuse, and 3) a certain amount of time being continuously dominated. Another example, I put Icon with U-Nhan-Rha, and both dogs went a fast-paced 1:10 off the chain with each other ... but I really don't think either dog was game-tested here either. Why? Because they both had GREAT natural stamina and, though fairly tired by that point, neither dog was really all that tired. They were simply two PROFESSIONAL MACHINES, and so I stopped it because I had seen all I needed to see to rate these dogs as having World Class Ability and Stamina ... but (even though they went over an hour) I cannot properly say they were "tested hard." By contrast, I have picked up short-winded dogs in :25 - :30, and declared them "pretty game," because they were so freakin' tired that they were at the point of heat stroke ... and were spotting weight and behind the whole time, trying as fiercely and hard as they could, but just couldn't do anything besides lose and get dominated the whole way.
So, no, time doesn't necessarily prove a dog's game ... but, yes, enough time has to elapse to where the dog gets beaten, dead-ass-tired, and dominated the whole way (without a bad move) before you can call a dog game. A still-fresh dog, no matter how injured, cannot be called "game" ... whether he went an hour or just because he got shipwrecked and "still acted good." A certain amount of utter fatigue must be present IMO.
Jack
i have to dissagree with a dog who quits on top being a cur because that dog was not acting cowardly because he had nothing to fear to me a dog like thaat lacks the desire to finish not the will to win, because in his mind he already won, he sees no need to scratch because he kicked that dogs ass already
Mmmm, I would have to see the dog to agree/disagree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by bolero
Plenty of athletic dogs will shit all over themselves to a game dog they can "physically overpower," but who nonetheless is so game they keep scrambling after the more talented dog's ass.
In other words, just because a dog is "winning" doesn't mean he WON ... he is just winning "for now" ... and plenty of dogs, the moment they get tired, start to panic if they're in there against a game dog that can breathe ... precisely because the more talented dog senses he won't be able to stay ahead much longer.
So it all depends on the circumstances ... and I personally wouldn't want anything to do with any dog who would "stop scratching" while he knows he has an opponent in the corner ... seeing as, in Cajun Rules, scratching is the name of the game.
Jack
Edit: I would also like to add that the desire to finish (meaning to hit true kill spots), and the desire to "keep fighting" (meaning to continue to attack the other dog, even if it's only to shake a leg or a shoulder) are not the same thing ... and a dog who lacks the desire to "keep fighting" a dog he's whipping can hardly be called a game dog IMO.
I have seen dead game dogs gone under ten minutes. It's not the time, but the punishment they withstand during that time. Someone I know have a Nasty Nasty bitch who is on the bigger side. He puts his smaller females on her for ten mins, if they can handle that he considered them game enough.
I personally would find it hard to call a dog "dead game" who got snuffed in under :10. I would just say the dog got killed.
While I understand there are no clear-cut definitions, time-wise, as to "how long" a dog has to go before he can be called "game" ... in my mind a "game test" presupposes a certain amount of weariness and sustained abuse. In other words, there has to be a certain amount of fatigue that plays into it also, on top of a certain amount of sustained domination and constant abuse. A dog that gets killed in :10 is basically a fresh dog (fatigue-wise); he just got quickly murdered (injury-wise).
I would feel comfortable saying, "The dog got killed and never made a bad move," but I personally wouldn't say he showed "dead game" ... as ten minutes is a joke time frame IMO.
For example, four times Silverback has had dogs stretched-out getting killed in the throat in under :10, and on each case (when SB was pried out) the other dogs, after flopping-around and getting their air back, all "wanted more" ... but I sure as hell wouldn't call anything they did even remotely close to a "game test."
The truth is, these dog were choked TF out by Silverback while still fresh, and they simply would have been "dead dogs" had I not pried The Gorilla out of their throats. But they were not even remotely "game tested" by what happened ... they just would have been killed in the throat very quickly.
Jack
I understand what you mean, and my point wasn't that 10 minute frame. But to show my point of view deep gameness doesn't have to pass the hour or anything like that. A dog that scratchers with broken legs, guts hanging out, to a certain death is a dead game dog in my book. If he would go with that kind of injury I find it hard he would've stopped in other situations. JMHO
I understand what you mean as well.
I know of dogs that would take a killing ... so long as they can at least get their own holds and "bite back" ... but that same dog quit on all fours, without much damage at all, because it couldn't take being held out by the ear to where it could never get a single hold and, ultimately, he ran out of gas. So different dogs have different breaking points ...
I guess this just goes to show why each case is unique, and (as such) must be looked at individually :)
Cheers,
Jack
True. We all sea things the way we believe are best for our dogs. Thats whats makes this sport so exciting.
I would have to agree with Jack in that no dog that gets killed in 10 minutes is deadgame. It could have been a fluke event, but chances are, the dog was simply an outclassed, below average dog in there with something that it should have never seen. Time is but a factor of measurement. There is not enough accumulated damage inside of 10 minutes to render anything dead game. It is simply rendered as dead.
a lot of dogs get called a cur for the wrong reason,fatigue ,sick ,poor condition,and under wght. all these play a major role in the CUR factor.when you can tel the diff, you are on your way to being good dog man.most dogmen don't see it "EVER" .here are some famous words of idiots ."IF HE CAN STAND ,HE CAN SCRATCH."
well that is not always true .eamples EXTREME FATIGUE ,BABESIA ,WRONG WGHT.
Here are the ways to fix it .Learn what you are doing ,get some common sense ,unfortunately is not to common.
To a large degree, I agree with you Sonny.Quote:
Originally Posted by waccamaw
These dogs have a tough row to hoe, and it only makes sense to allow them to have the best chance of "digging deep" by having them 1) healthy, 2) at their best weight, and 3) in top condition.
Fatigue is one thing that can really make a dog quit, and it takes a dogman to know the difference between a dog quitting "winded" and a dog being so exhausted and shocky he does not know where he is.
All of these are judgement calls, and (unfortunately) many don't have very good judgement. Just because a dog "can stand" doesn't mean he knows where he is. Just because "5 minutes later" a dog can recognize what is in front of him doesn't mean he could at the moment of release.
I have said many times before that, if you throw any man in a huge vat of water, that man will be forced to tread-water-and-tread-water-and-tread-water ... but at some point he simply will not be able to tread water anymore ... and so he will drown. And the same is true of these dogs and fighting: no animal can physically go on-and-on-and-on forever. At some point they're going to collapse. This doesn't make them "curs" (cowards); it means they have simply run out of gas.
Jack
i have always said a good dog in the hands of a IDIOT is a doomed dog
WORDQuote:
Originally Posted by waccamaw