I always go natural when pulling the water out of my dog, but lets hear some thoughts from others about properly doing it with Dex.
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I always go natural when pulling the water out of my dog, but lets hear some thoughts from others about properly doing it with Dex.
I use Dex the last few days and right before show time, for both the diuretic effects as well as the anti swelling properties. But I also saturate their feed with pedialyte the last week to counter act some of the fluid loss that is going to happen. I admit, I don't use anywhere near the amounts I use to, nor what I see in printed keeps or what others say they use
By feeding raw, you really don't have to worry about drying them out much. Kibble and creatine are water retainers, so if that's what you feed on a regular bases, then I beilieve you should dry out the dog to remove eccess or retained water within the tissue. Things that cause water retention can also give you a false weight on your dog, which is one reason why dogs are dried out, as well as to reduce bleeding. Using Dex can also hurt your dog a great deal, Dex disables the body immune system to fight off infection, so by giving it early, your making it easier for your dog to get a infection. JMO
While this is true about dex and all other corticosteriods (like dex), the immune suppression effects would be due to long term use or high dosage use (like life saving doses after a show), not from a few mg. In that case you would have to wean your dog off of them over a week or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by PurePit19
Don't dry out your dog. Simply quit giving excess water.
Drying them out is a terrible idea, unless we're looking across from each other. In that case pump them full of Dex.
KMSLQuote:
Originally Posted by BulldogConnection
Why has the opinion changed on drying out? Saw a yard video that mentioned it was a thing of the past and shouldn't be done today.
The opinion has changed due to the fact that there are advances always being made, and one of those advances was learning exactly how important water is for the performance animal. The term "drying out" that was so frequently used many years ago was smart dummy speak for dehydration. Dogs are usually close to some form of mild dehydration simply due to the amount of fluid they lose everyday.
The dog needs to be hydrated for the body to work as it should. Water is the most ingredient in a keep. Without water, wastes can't be excreted, nutrients can't be transported, oxygen doesn't get to where it needs to be as quickly as needed, well, you get the picture.
There is nothing wrong with taking off excess water weight. There is something seriously wrong with someone drying their dog out.
Bump for more opinions on drying one out vs keeping them hydrated.
Kibbles is a water retainer? Could someone explain that?Quote:
Originally Posted by PurePit19
I give +1 vote to keeping them hydrated.
Btw: Cutting is going to accomplish the opposite. Give your dog 3 liter water and it will use what it needs and urinates the rest of it. Give your 300 ml of water and your dog will start retaining it. This is a natural reaction of the body.
I am not sure about the kibbles retaining water. Maybe because it is dry and opposite of raw, whereas raw food contains a lot of water content . My best guess anyway.
My first experiences way back when the dogs were dried out. This would be about 1982-83. I was a kid and my first real job was walking dogs. One of the rules were to avoid puddles or wet grass, stay in the middle of the path. ( $1 per mile in '82 and 13 yrs, old. In rural NC that made me damn near a Rockefeller) That gentlemen cut water and used diuretics to dry them out. I didn't know squat but I watched him mix/weigh food and do the same with water, especially the water at the end.
As I got older I changed with the times. The dog are not what I would call 'wet' but a far cry from the 'dry' of yesteryear. Feeding RAW also adds a twist as well. Feeding RAW a dog gets closer to his own individual wetness factor (that is not an actual term) so when the work begins there is not lot of adjustment needed. I have learned that if the water amounts are monitored the dog will come off water on his own as time winds down. Then finely tuned in the last days. Another benefit of RAW I would not have expected. EWO
I call a dog "wet" when you check his count and the skin snaps back immediately. I call a dog "dry" when the skin takes 1/2 a second or longer to snap back. I am only familiar with bringing dogs in with some sort of count as this is what i was taught and has worked for me. On the other hand i also believe that water is needed in the system for proper cooling of the dog but i have never brought one without some type of count. So my question is to the people that believe that drying a dog is a thing of the past do you bring your dog in wet and let him drink until his show?
We did a 30 hour feed cycle and on that last rest day leading up to weigh in. Counting backwards, Water was taken away at the 24 hour mark. Dog already had it's last feeding and water added in feed etc. six hours prior to that or better put 30 hours back from weigh in time. This last 30 hour feeding was doubled. Sort of a Protein/Carb/Fat loading to make the dog feel good. LOL
On that last 30 hour feeding the feed was doubled based on the last hardest work day and the amount the dog had been fed. On the previous two 30 hour rest days. The first rest day, dog was fed one third of that amount and the second rest day it was 1/2 that amount. Dog would weigh around one pound light before getting that heavy feeding. Would look like it was pregnant. Water was left with dog at all times till the 24 hour mark counting backwards from the weigh in time.
Water was reintroduced at 12 hours from weigh in time. Dog was walked first to clean out, rubbed down , then weighed. Was allowed to drink water till lifted head. Given 3cc of PREDEF 2X sterile aqueous suspension under the skin on the lower back area of the neck.
Six hours from weigh in, dog was walked to clean out, weighed, rubbed down and allowed to drink water till lifting head. Unless dog weighed light. Was given the amount of ounces in fluids that the dog was weighing light. I had earlier stated I gave 1cc of Dex under the skin at the six hour mark before weigh in time. I believe that was stopped over time because the PREDEF 2X anti inflammatory medications was getting the job done.
Four hours till weigh in dog was walked to clean out, rubbed down and put up. If dog still was still a little light was given the amount of fluids in ounces dog was weighing light. Still preferred to stop all fluids at the six hour mark.
One hour before weigh in dog was walked, weighed, and put up. 30 minutes from weigh in, dog was walked , and put up if felt it was necessary. If could get one more walk right before weigh in say in ten minutes did so. Wanted dog's kidney's cleared of all fluids and any stool in bowels. If anything was left. After that it was Show Time.
Giving a dog any kind of Dex or Predef 2X earlier than that and leaving dog with water, I figure dog would drink it's whole water pan dry and be looking for some more. Cheers
I leave water readily available until the last two to three days. I add water to the feed and supplementation meals thru out and when the results of the work, the feed and the rest peak together the dogs come off water on their own. The last week or so they hardly drink at all. I leave the water there but check the amounts throughout the day. The last three days I pick it up as I am fine tuning for weight. The last two weeks everything, including water is based on his weight throughout each day. So yes, I leave water out the entire keep except for the last three days. EWO
Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
Thanks @CYJ and @EWO for your replies. Im judging from your responses that both of you bring the entry in with some sort of cojnt. Is there anyone who brings them in consistantly with no count at all?
CYJ you were sure giving big amounts of dex. Im not sure what's fref2x dex is which u gave 3 cc of. But 1 cc of dex azium 6 houres before the show, didnt that make the dog drop a lot of water weight? No dex here before the show, if i would do it would be like 0,5 cc 1 hour before the show.
I just give the dog water in its feed, same like he would be getting on a rest day. 24 houres before, then remove the bowl. thats it.
R2L, that type of Predef 2X sterile aqueous suspension was kept a secret for a long time and maybe still today. This med was not Prednisolone. Predef 2X sterile aqueous suspension was a potent corticosteroid. The glucocorticoid activity is 10 times that of Prednisolone, 50 times that of hydrocortisone, and 67 times that of cortisone. Pull it up on the internet and read up on this med. Mostly used by Dairy Farmers/Horse and swine usage.
My Vet loved it, but did not like the extra water drinking and urinating the dogs did in those small kennel Vet set ups. Created more daily cleaning of those Kennels. Even his techs complained about it's use causing to much clean up problems. Yet Drinking plenty of water etc. for our dogs after a dog pull is very important.
The PREDEF 2X was a thick yellowish type of medication kept in a light brown glass bottle. It worked much slower in the dog's system when given under the skin. This medication could stay in the dog's system up to three days.
After a hard bout the dog was given 3cc shot in both shoulders and both back legs. Never lost a dog from shock. Dog was up and walking in 3 to 6 hours and drinking plenty of water. Started the antibiotics at the 24 hour mark after cleaning the dog with a disinfectant soap etc. Dog kept up off the ground to keep dog clean. Dog would be acting like new in about three days or so, like nothing ever happened.
The PREDEF 2X had a powerful effect on preventing swelling and bleeding. Helped the dog to slow it's breathing rate down to a long slower deep type breathing. Some of the dog men back then could not get a handle on this. See a dog going full blast but breathing nice and deep like a air bellow works. The dog will appear to be running a little hot for 5 to ten minutes at first. But the PREDEF 2X was clearing the excessive moisture from the lungs and dog would cool out. At least that is what I was told and observed.
B. Davis, Hands, McDougal, and the Florida dog men camp. Had a Vet that liked to try all sorts of things, on their dogs. Came to some of the very private events to get some field feed back to help them out. That would never happen today. LOL
The only draw back was you could not use it in a Multi dog pulling show unless you were going first. You also had to include losing one's forfeit if not there on time for weigh in. Should be like that anyway. The Dog would be at it's peak around that weigh in time. Get delayed over a hour could work against you. Dog would start drying out to much and could go stale.
I see no reason today to have multi dog shows. Not a very wise thing to do. We all heard what happen last year and this year. Cheers
If you read Barney Fife's keep he talks about the Dex amounts. Which should be correct for Azium or Dex. That was what most of the other dog men used at that time.
We used the PREDEF 2X sterile aqueous suspension product . Some dogs in earlier dog shows were given 1cc of Azium at the six hour mark before weigh in. Believe that was stopped later on and just used the PREDEF 2X at 3cc, under the skin, 12 hours before weigh in time. V. Jackson did not have to worry about the drying of the dog. Just making the weight and the other dog puller weighing in on time. Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Be careful. I do not recommended any Dex before. Can have adverse effects and ruin 6 weeks worth of work. Seen too many punch drunk on release. In today's competition, you can't be lethargic for the first few minutes.
The PREDEF 2X sterile aqueous suspension we used was made by the Upjohn drug company. Only knew it worked wonders for us. My last go show was into P. Powell. Powell brought a nasty nose chewing head dog. Being he was one of V. Jackson protégé as well. He knew our type dogs and pulling style.
My dog's head never swelled, or had any heavy bleeding or breathing problems. Even after the show never swelled or the next day before it was planted under some trees for plant food. This dog was able to run back to the truck on lease, jumped up into the back of truck into her kennel.
But none of this will make one deep game. My little bitch was a 50 minute ass kicking cur. She knew how to tell time. Quit on me on the round table work at 50 minutes near the last two weeks of the keep. Never heard or seen that before, even her tail swelled up like a quitting cur. I said what the heck we got going on here.
Why I never bet big on a first time out dog off my yard or anyone else's yard. Never bet what I could not afford to lose. A very different world in that square show ring. Many dogs do get pulled to much back at home before ever entering the show ring, for the real deal.. To each his own and there are many ways to skin a cat. What ever is working for you best stick with it.
As the ole saying goes, Do not fix what is not broken. Cheers
My final thoughts on the drying out of a dog. I feel if you have the pulling dog on it's best pulling weight. Do not over work it,Dog works well and stays on it's weight. Weight should not be jumping up and down through each week. We did not weigh every single day just kept a eye on the dog and weighed about every third day.
If dropped a 1/4 pound would increase the raw food. The amount of kibble that was used was the amount the dog was eating in the pre keep when it was on it's strongest lowest weight. If cold weather may go up a 1/2 pound or pound. Hot weather went with lowest weight with still having it's strength.
So if dog is working well, on weight, skin not slack when pulled. Gums and under lips nice and blood red. Is probably dry as needed . In the dog pull dog event will get plenty of time to dry out some more. LOL In other words V. J. did not dry out a dog and told me not to do it. There is a right way to rub a dog down as well, that helps to remove any excessive water under the skin. That today may be considered a wives' tail. But most in my time era did it. Cheers
Sorry for not knowing the correct name of this medication, when I started posting about this medication on earlier posts. Was Predef 2X sterile aqueous suspension medication by the Upjohn company. Today it is shown made by another drug company. Sorry for any confusion. Went back and made corrections. Was many years ago. So have forgotten a lot of things. Cheers
If a person wants to know if dex will have negative effects on their dog, give the dog dex halfway through the keep and see how it effects the dog. Give the dog dex before the keep and pay attention to your dog. That will go a long way in telling you what you need to see about the animal. I'd used dex for many years before a show and never had any issues with it, so it's a case by case basis. It may also have to do with the amounts given.
On a previous post in this thread, I wouldn't consider a 1/2 count a dry dog personally. I've seen dogs before with a 2-3 count, and to me, those dogs were dry.
Agree with Frosty on this one. I think anything done to the dog should be done prior to the keep just to know the reaction. Most dogs who have made it to the keep stage have had some dex experience. There should be some mental notes made here about how it affected the dog. The case by case basis is always a good idea. Good post. EWO
What's in your experience the average amount to be given and what time before the show? (lets say 40 lbs)
I heard people vary injecting it from 1 till 6 hours before the show. I would like to test and weigh/skincheck/empty a dog, every hour for 6 hours. Will do the same thing the day before, with no dex been given. Will post the results ;)
Dex has about a 3 day half life on it. Thats where i believe the whole 3-2-1 method of dexing comes from. I usually give one shot about 24 hours out.
Finally found the correct name of this inflammatory medication etc. It is still available through a Veterinarian. Used mostly on sick dilapidated Cattle/Horses/Swine.
It is called Predef 2X Sterile aqueous suspension. Can be pulled up on the internet and read about what it does and not do.
Is in the inflammatory steroid groups, I believe this medication is not Prednisone. Is listed more powerful than Prednisone and the other inflammatory type steroids. Been a long time, even though I did list using 1cc of Dexamethasone 6 hours under the skin before weigh in time.
I believe on my last dog I only used 3cc of the Predef 2X under the skin at 12 hours before the weigh in. This product pretty well covered all bases including balancing out the water in the body. Believe that is mentioned in the write up effects on this medication.
So as I said before did not have to put a dog through a drying process. Removed water 24 hours before weigh in time, reintroduced at the 12 hour mark and 6 hour mark. Even at four hours if dog was still weighing a little light.
If dog was on weight at 12 hours and 6 hours before weigh in. Allowed dog to drink at each time till lifted head. If dog weighed light at either weigh in, gave that amount in ounces To help dog stay on weight.
This is important, dog should be given it's water after walked/weighed and rubbed down. Have to use your own judgment on the fluids according to how the dog was weighing at each session.
Only works for a one dog show and should include a forfeit lost, if the other dog man decides to show up two hours late etc. This medication helped to point and peak a dog at just that right time.
If a dog went through a very bad match, was the very best to keep shock off a dog, dog would drink plenty of water within minutes after a hard dog pull. Medication stayed around three days in the system. A good shot of penicillin,dog's body washed and cleaned up next day, put up off the ground. In three days or so, dog would running around like nothing ever happened.
I know many wish to stay with 100% natural keeps and that is just fine. Probably can not get this type medication much less take a injured dog to many of these new pacifist type veterinarians. Cheers
It is a fine line on the last days and even a finer line the last hours going in. It is hard enough to call the right weight but it is also very hard to hit that weight in the right proportion.
If 50lbs is the right weight and the dog has been dialed in to 50 the right way, all is well. But it always important to remember that 50 is nothing more than a number. What is important is what makes up that 50lbs. and the proportion of muscle mass/bone/coat/hair/water etc.. Adjusting water the last few hours can be very tricky. If a dog is proportionately correct at 51 and is dried to 50 then at 50 he is no longer in proportion. If the water content is over proportioned at 51 and then dried to the correct and proportionate 50lbs. then all is well.
Lots of dogs run hot 10-15 minutes in and everything from B-12 to steroids is to blame. When in reality they were on 'weight' but on that fine line of proportion they are one way or the other, usually on the dehydration side.
Dex and predef are fine when they are used correctly. The issue is when they are used as a fixer in the final hours. Basically I put in 8 weeks of work and yet missed my mark, but these couple of shots will make it all better. It is really not that simple.
Corticasteroids are really no different than anabolic steroids in a sense that either of them used correctly will benefit the dog, and at the same time used incorrectly will have undesired effects.
I prefer the dog to be wet in the last hours leading in and let the natural fall hit the mark. I have never been a fan of working a dog a pound or so heavy and then drawing him to weight the last few days. I get him to pit weight sooner in the keep and leave water readily available to him throughout. I always add water to the food and after about 5-6 weeks of hard work and watered food they seldom go to the water bowl. The last three or four days I remove it and they are watered thru feeding.
This leaves the dog slightly wetter in proportion and allows him to fall to the proportionate weight at show time.
More than likely I am not a 'dex' guy because simply I was never taught it was needed. With that said, I know a bunch of guys who are very successful using dex beforehand. EWO
That is an excellent post EWO!
Those fine tuning details are very important and I think you explained it perfectly.
Thank you,
S_B
I agree 100%. Great Information EWO.
The keep and all that it entails is my favorite part of the dogs. So many different ways to get to the same place. I am always interested in the different ways. EWO