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I would like to know more about the men behind the dogs. For some reason I'd like to know more about the lesser known North Carolina dogmen. Why did chavis only have one arm? How many dogs did he run? I like knowing that I think Tudor was a blacksmith. It tells me about the man.
I'd like to know more of the history. Stuff like limey picking his foundation dog up out of the pit and saving him after he was left for dead. Any old schoolers with knowledge to share.
Corvino was a blacksmith . Tudor ran chicken pits and was a bootlegger among other hustles .
I got that backwards. You think that affects his dogs?
I'm sure whatever occupation he had provided money to feed, keep, and care for his dogs.
I have this idea that what people do comes out in their dogs. Maybe he was a crooked black smith that conned people out of money.
I doubt that. He worked around hot ass ovens banging out steel products. Had to be a tough dude. Prob why his line was known for gameness. I'm just getting into breeding. I bet in the end. My dogs will be smart, athletic, game good temperament, good conformation. Solid on average. If you do your part you will be in the game.
A lot of military guys that I know are some of the hardest people I know in the dog game. Maybe it's because of the life they have to live.
Vernon Jackson was a Marine. His dogs were rough and ready. They fought hard and bit hard and they have the conditioning to go all night every night. He used young marines to run his dogs.
CYK would be the firsthand expert on Mr. Jackson and his approach.
Carl Mims came from a pulp wood background in SC and then moved to NC and remained in the wood industry. To say he was a full-grown man would be a huge understatement. I think he the greatest breeder of game dogs of all time. I don't know of another yard that has consistently produced a high percentage of game dogs for 40-50 years. He is a second-generation dog man, so he has been in and around top-notch dogs his entire life. He went off his yard only a handful to times to breed to someone else's dog. From there it was him and his dogs for over fifty years. For a really long stretch of time you could spend $300 and just about know you would be able to scratch. You may not bite like the others, and you may not be all that skillful at times, but you knew you would be there til someone else decided it was over. And those old school pulp wood guys are a lot like that. They work hard, they keep going, the over come every obstacle that is put in front of them, like nature, or the economy, or mechanical breakdown, whatever, they keep going with a durability and willingness to stay. The reward is being able to do it again tomorrow.
EWO II
I may be partial but i think that military and some athletes are good at dogs. The reason is this. A person who is good at fighting war and competition has a clearer window into things. There are quiet polite marines. In the world where the average person doesn’t know crap people think these tatted up loud mouth are the tough guys. The marine has seen the little country boy or the one from the city. He carry’s himself a certain way. When they get to the combat training there is a beast in him. He’s trust a trust worthy friend, but will flat kill an enemy.
There are a lot of different types of fighters. I was discussing this with a friend today. There are people who throw punches. There are people that set up knock out or kill shots. The second go out with serious intention. I wonder how many of these dogs got labeled cold. They may develop slower. They will have a strategy to end you.
How many times have you heard people saying mayweather should fight. In this hatten fight he saw a thing hatten did. Like Ali. He said. “ check hook”. He set it up the whole fight. Then “bam” kiss the turn buckle. You’re part of my highlight reel. I think dogs like titere were like this. There’s no way you make it to 8 trading with people. The ward gottis of the world end up brain dead.
https://youtu.be/6mz84dXgqbA
This is beautiful to me. I think the military types remember going to basic with people. Watching them run. Watching them fight. Get tested. I guess that’s the thing about war. It will expose things. Hitler was about to push America into the Atlantic. It took a bible raised midwestern guy that didn’t rank high in West Point. To say. “There shouldn’t be a sad face in the room. We have a unique opportunity.” He could see through fear that hitler was over extended. He saw a chance for victory. Without him the generals would have been scared. Then the other officers then the other men. There are people like George mcAuliff that when he received a communication from the Germans to surrender responded, “NUTS” a polite way of saying fuck you.
I did my time and retired but during Desert Storm made a promise .
I had no sons so I would leave my name another way in this world and that would be by way of an old hobby since I was a kid.
So after this journey ends as did the others I will leave behind stuff like this
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...6&dam_id=90830
and this
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=90827
I’m getting started. Making some progress. I Bred my hanna dog
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=82323
To this dog.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=65504
When I find the son I’m looking for and take him back to her the foundation of one wing of the family will be built
Taking this one to hanna should be nice if he grows like I think he will.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=89657
This one of my favorite guys
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=86638
To
Lana II
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=88654
Should build and give me a core. Built along qualities two men valued. Hollingsworth and crews.
George hanna should have a smart monster in it.
I guess you can say that the prototype of what I would put my name on is in there. The core of a family.
There are others out there. Sledges Frank Peterson aka Kobe, sledges George mcAuliff aka Zeus and sledges Caleb. We’re building a type of dog.
I guess I’m gonna tell a little story about little man. I took three in the litter to my dad. Somehow they ended up missing their second shot. I lost the three pups to parvovirus. Little man was left. Like the runt of the littler. His mom is my kind of crazy. His dad is one of those dogs good natured hard worker. I have little man. Walk-in from outside one day. His dad is spinning in the door way. Seems little man dove under him and was bitin him in the privates. There’s always away to win. Basically you combine clos brains with frank and nalas never quit. You get a dog that will bite your privates do whatever it takes to win.
https://youtu.be/JUrZp-rWOgU
This a beautiful one too. Makes me smile.
Ha got ‘em! Wow!
https://youtu.be/ilArqNp6PpE
It's a whole lot more to breeding a family of dogs than just picking 2 dogs to breed.
Even then once you locked in certain traits you can be using a breeding stand for the every breeding based on dogs too active even to breed.
It takes going through each and every dog in each and every litter to finding out what is the best dogs to breed.
No one cares how many just picked ou 1- 2 and sold the rest. Most from my time didn't let go of what they did not keep. You active let out there pwn stock so some one can come back and beat them with it.
Yes allot kept secret recipes but if you knew how to breed than the end result was all you needed anyway.
Allot these days make big claims with doing minimum work as if it's to be celebrated. Meaning at least breed your own family from end-end of a 4 generation pedigree.
You cannot possibly know as much of your product as you think with only 1-2 generations.
You just can't. It takes no less than 4 generations to lock in traits and after that it's up to the breeder to then fill in traits the end results is lacking in. Now after the next 4 generations you have to repat over .
Breeding too much of one thing wil over ride years and years of work and not breeding enough of something is just as if you added nothing in some cases because it takes more than 1 breeding in most cases to lock in traits.
I had hands on with 20 straight generations. I used more than 20 pure-almost pure families to create a single family. Every family was line bred down from grand champions with the exception of the Red Boy dogs used from the Hollands family.
Decades ago it was more and better bred family dogs IMO than there are today. In these times there are more scatter bred dogs than family bred dogs.
I used and stuck with my own method of line breeding battle crossed dogs while keeping them family bred.
Based on the breeder not a single dog.
It takes 1 breeder to establish and maintain 1 standard. As simple as that.
And as a breeder it's not a single family that you focus on but also breeding outcrosses to your base. I have put together over 1 dozen different strains conected to 1 single family so I never have to go outside my own dogs ever again.
If you are not going through 75% of each litter than you are not close to picking the best to go back into your family.
Even belly mates are different so just because they are belly mates does not mean they will perform nor produce the same or even close.
That's what going through whole litters for 18 generations and more teaches you.
No matter what you start out with the dogs change every 4 generations, Nothing stays the same. Learn your dogs. Books and stories are nothin close to hands on with each one.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...6&dam_id=90830
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=90827
Well said.
Hindsight being 20/20 I should have bred more dogs and should have forced myself to being a breeder.
It has always been a headache for me to deal with bitches and puppies and all the things that go with that endeavor.
I never once thought about leaving a mark or creating a legacy or seeing my name in a pedigree. That never did anything for me. I am really thankful others think differently than me and have put in that time.
In the late 70's as a kid I remember the very first 'lesson' I got in these dogs (actually listening to the guy that turned me onto the dogs give advice you a young guy in his 20's getting into the dogs...as a kid I was a sponge and soaked up any and everything bulldog).
He told this guy the dogs were about winning. Nothing more and nothing less. And if he stayed in the dogs 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years, or 200 years, if you decide to get out, enjoyed your times with dogs and dog men, and no one never knows your name, that is mission accomplished. Even as an old guy in the 70's and 80's I think he could see where society was going and how 'unpopular' a person would be who was involved in the dogs. (I might be wrong, but this also came from a guy who was busted twice for the dogs, once making the National news. If you have ever heard Tom Brokaw say, in other news, "and see your two childhood heroes being escorted by the police for dogfighting" you get the importance of anonymity.
But with that said, I do appreciate the people who committed a large part of their lives making a mark and leaving something behind.
Nice post.
I think we discussed one of your Holland bred dogs some years back, Ladybird. Her littermate Bobby was a bulldog who in turn threw bulldogs. I had a winning female out of him bred to a Mims/Snooty/Molly Bee bred bitch.
EWO II
I agree. I generally do not sell dogs away from me. I don’t breed a lot. I can get back to dogs that I breed and follow them. I do setup breedings proactively. Meaning. I want a certain thing out of a breeding not just tittle chasing. But certain styles and structures. I hear you. There are no short cuts. There are ways to do things than having piles of dogs that “didn’t make it”. I like family breedings. A post like yours. I will read a few times every few months ask honestly am I keeping it honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman311
I am a control freak and very particular. I’m going to end up building or modding anything I do. I like taking care of pups. I think you can tell a lot about dogs as pups. My gut feelings on dogs as pups has been on so far. The more dogs and choices you get the harder it is to making it into the gene pool.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO II
As for winning being everything. It is but it isn’t. Some chase the titles that won. Some look at traits and qualities that win and put it out consistently. They win sometimes. Some mix random things and how for the Hail Mary. Different way to. Point.
Agreed it takes all kinds to make the wheels go 'round.
Sometimes it is perspective and past experiences.
My first times in the dogs were as a kid when I was 10-11 years old. A guy sat on a five gallon bucket watching a dog on a mill. When his son blinked a flashlight the dog came off the mill and I walked him around the field as the incoming dog was placed on the mill. I got 2 or three dollars for my work and a whole five if I jogged around the field. Ten years old in rural North Carolina making three to five dollars a day was damn near like being a Rockefeller (or Elon Muck these days).
I was never included in breeding discussions and producing dog discussion, only the actual working of a dog. That discussion led to he has to be perfect to win and winning is really the only purpose/reasoning to owning a bulldog. When that is the first and foremost lesson and one ins only ten years old, it sticks, and it sticks/stays for a really long time. So much so it took a lot of years for this zebra to not only change his stripes but find appreciation in those who didn't have the stripes from the start.
I knew two older fellows who have since passed who would damn near fist fight over whether Bandit quit or was stopped. For me, I am glad the Mountain Man bred him because he threw Two Eyes which thru Miss Two Eyes that when bred to Patrick's Kasai gave me the best male I have ever owned and one of the best females I ever seen. I would have never had that insight.
To a lot who saw him, as a bulldog Snooty was trash. I am glad Carl Mims is so much smarter and wiser than me and incorporated him in the blends of Red Boy-Snooty-Bolio dogs for so many years. That blend of dogs created Mims Charlie who is by far the best all-around, everything dog I have ever seen. Those heavy Snooty bred dogs produced a female named Sugarfoot who is by far the hardest biting dog I have ever seen and would venture to say one of the hardest biting dogs that ever lived.
These are just two of the examples of why my way of thinking never has, nor ever had, a chance of being successful in the dogs.
I look back to those that made better decisions than I would have made and show my appreciation.
I grew up on a yard that had 8-10 spots, and all were winners or on their way to winning. Culling had nothing to do with curs. Culling was removing pretty good game dogs from the mix because the chain spot was needed for a better dog with a better shot at winning. If two match quality dogs landed at 37lbs, he did not have two dogs at 37, he found out which of the two were the 37 to keep. Archaic and asinine thinking as I look back.
But it takes all kinds.
EWO II
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO II
There’s nothing wrong with that. It does take all kinds. I do lead towards. Breeding. I was into art and science as a kid and adult. Athletics with sports. I have some friends I’m trying to teach something’s too. How not to screw off your best dog. Get to a point where you are constantly raising your average.
I see conformation in an instant. Like cow hocked. To thin etc. I have my favorite body styles. Does it make a difference. Do we breed for conformation. No. But the more faults a dog has the more they have to over come.
You’re right. It takes all kinds. I think about yard management a lot. The second order and third order thinking that goes into winning these conformation shows.
I recently acquired a pup from someone who used to contribute here. I like dogs down from dogs he bred.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=90958
Megan is coming here. Owww that’s a sweet white girl name. No Megan is sweet to her friends and serious to people that tries to hurt who she protects.
What does this have to do with winning. I’m fond of the Hollingsworth stuff. I like the temperament on the bull stuff. Basically it’s variation on a theme. I need dogs that I can trust around family. What does that have to do with winning? If I sell a man biter now the people are after me. It matters.
I can’t wait for her to get here.
Good luck with the pup. Hopefully she turns out to meet your expectations.
I have been in and around these dogs for a really long time and I have had only one that would bite a person and have never seen one that would actually defend a person. Every dog I have ever owned or been a part of, would load up and leave with anyone willing to pet him/her on the head.
I have heard stories of their protecting but never actually seen it. I had some man-dogs some years back (Fila Brasileiro, weak nerved, defensively driven man-dogs, as well as one SCH trained Rottweiler) and in those years learned dog that will actually engage and protect are very few and very far in between.
Granted, a display (which is what most dogs do) is 99.9% of all the protection a person needs. If you have a dog that barks at strangers and can be seen by strangers, is just about all the home security anyone would ever need.
A number of years ago a friend of mine had a yard dog in his fenced in property. He was a regular old run of the mill bulldog that hung on the fence in attempt to kill man, woman or child. Everyone that ever encountered the dog knew he would bite except for the crackhead who had a plan. His shop was broken into and a set of really expensive cylinder heads, a tunnel ram intake, a carburetor, headers, pistons, rods (the point is it took several trips to get all that out). The plan? There were six empty bologna packs at the edge of the fence. One guy hauled him off while another fed the dog bologna to off-set the 'killer' in him.
And to answer your questions, nothing in these dogs has to do with winning other than the pursuit if winning. Can a non-winning dog produce winning dogs? Absolutely. It happens everyday. Can it happen consistently over time? History says no.
EWO II
I hear you. For straight protection a malicious or Rottweiler. I don’t really like man aggressive pits. I like people directed dogs. How does it relate to winning? I like walking. I like walking in the woods. Stuff I do for fun keeps me and my dogs in shape. I like smart dogs. I don’t like dumb hot dogs. Dogs that know where a real threat is or aggression towards them. The longer I can keep dogs the greater my chance for success. If I sell a man biter best believe they want to come destroy my dogs. Probably want to do it anyway. I believe in closed gene pools. I don’t want man biter in my gene pool. I guess there are ways to win, conditions to win and traits that give a path to win. I’d rather have smart hard working dogs, with brains, certain styles. If it were pre 75 or whatever I think we could do well.
In the bulldogs I have seen all kinds. From fight crazy dogs who will relentlessly go after any thing with fur and four legs all the way to dogs that have the 'you hit me first' approach. And everywhere in between.
Out back I have one that the sun just came up so he started his daily thousand scratches between the two dogs next to him. He pops his chain all day and half the night. The male on one side looks at him like he is retarded and if the chain didn't stop him the big dog on the other end will take all of his lunch money. The dog on the other side is one of the best looking, most naturally chiseled dogs I have ever owned and bred down from the most freak athlete of a dog that I have ever seen. He is as cold as ice and has no idea why this dog charges him hundreds of times per day.
Just those three get across the gambit and there are ton more in between with varying traits.
I have never factored in my protection or property protection with my dogs. As stated, my dogs will load up and happily leave with anyone that will rub them on the head. They love all people and interaction with people, regardless of if the person is rubbing them or stealing them.
I guess I wish at times there would be some aversion to strangers so I could feel a little less weary of them being stolen. That is a double edged sword I suppose.
The origin of your dogs come from a good place. I enjoyed his contributions and conversations here some time back. He had a blue-eyed black and white Snooty dog and I always wondered how he turned out. I had some similar and it was a pretty good family of dogs.
Like several, he had some issues with the previous owner of the board and (like me) got the boot. He has a wealth of knowledge (unlike me) and I enjoyed his posts. Good people, too.
EWO II
We talk sometimes. I’m getting a dogs from him. Trying to build a family around it. I ended up getting a dog from garner. I read that thing vise grip wrote about Indian sunny bolio dogs. One of my dogs is like a thick bolio dog Fast and athletic. Garner chinaman frisco x mostly Hollingsworth dog. Hanna is faster than your average Hollingsworth dog. Can you get to the Indian sunny concept from another direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO II