Appears that everyone these days are backing up dogs to unproven dogs
Just peddling...smh
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Appears that everyone these days are backing up dogs to unproven dogs
Just peddling...smh
It has always been that way.
What we tend to do is take a nostalgic look back into the past always wearing rose colored glasses.
Even one of the greats down in Louisiana said the dog will throw what the dog is going to throw regardless of age.
But there are two trains of thought:
1. The guy has bred six-seven-eight generations of the same family of dogs. He has some insight. If he has selected for the same traits and he has been getting those traits consistently then sees them in a younger dog, he is on a better path than......
2. Then there is the guy who buys two dogs and he has zero input into their pedigree and breeds them at a year partly in the hopes of grandeur and partly to get his money back and partly to make a few dollars.
But this is no different than the paper hangers, crooks and thieves we look back on so fondly.
EWO
Oh, I know it has always occurred. Been around the hounds 48 years and counting.lol
The game has always had that element unfortunately. Though I would not buy a dog period these days off the new generation breeders.
I have lived the theory of breeding scatter breed dogs, cold dogs..Never used a dog under a year. We let the bitches mature. The percentages weren't that great in our situation. We had a handful of decent ones. It was good for the minor league.. Didn't work in the Open Division.
If the guys are just hoarder of certain lines and aren't hog hunting with it. That's fine. If they are putting it out there of Open Division dogs ..Well, you must have coin to loses..lol
Just because it's been done doesn't make it a success down the road
I was not defending the practice just saying it is nothing new.
EWO
there is also a guy that gets a breeding pair from a good breeder. From working with the dogs he knows their traits. He knows how hard it is to get you hand on a good dog as an outsider. He breeds them and monitors the pups. none are peddled. none are risked until loses can be taken. Maybe its risky or less than ideal. Sometimes a loss hurts more than other times. by looking at the dogs he tries to figure out what is coming from where to lock it in. its not really peddling. its less than ideal.
Seen it from both sides.. If your looking at just breeding pretty paper. That's fine .Just don't lie about the quality of the hounds for a coin. I had ole timer give me a Hemphill/ Wilders Max bitch. Off both proven parents.. He told us to test her and use here as a brood. At 25 months she checked out. And was a decent brood.That was in the late 70's.
Always been exception to the rules and that's what the novice always put their faith in. Lol
Our time has come and gone..Good luck yis..
Agreed. It is similar in theory to breeding to the freak out of a family of plugs. Most will chase the freak in their plans but end up with mostly plugs. It just works that way.
My buddy had CH Angel. She was a newspaper dog a kid bought and through his legal issues she was pawned off on his grandmother. She would escape any 10X10 before you could close the door. Climb the fence like she was a monkey. She ran up the road and ran along the fence line his dogs trying to play. Tail wagging and just being a 6 month old puppy. He would carry her down the road, put her in the pen and she just about beat him back home.
The grandma asked him if he would take the dog. With it he got a 10X10 in great shape, a nice igloo doghouse, two bags of food in a metal can and a set of papers with a pedigree. He did the older lady a favor and took the dog. He chained her out and let her grow up.
He had moved from the game birds to the game dogs and had amassed quite the collection of well bred solid game dogs. He spent some $$$ to get there as well.
When the time came Angel stopped one of the best bitches I ever owned. Then planted two more. Then went on to win three with two RIP for sure and one I am not sure about the ride home.
If you can name a family or bloodline from the 80's and 90's it was in Angel. I am not sure how a dog could be that scatterbred. it would be hard to do on purpose. Red Boy, Snooty, Miss Pool Hall Red, Molly Bee, Midnight Cowboy/Boomerang, the dogs that made Maverick and Skull, the dogs that made Dirty Mary, Bolio and Andy Capp. Just a hodge podge of dogs. Frisco being the only dog on the top and the bottom. Just crazy.
And she ran along the river near here with two Blue Heelers and wrestled and play fought like a puppy in her retirement.
When she was rolled once her owner had a broke leg. She looked like shit with no effort and just taking it just to take it. This old guy who had seen her told him to step over the wall and talk to her and within just a few minutes she had planted another.
All that from the bottom. Laying on her back she put dogs to sleep.
When bred to males that had already produced maybe one or two games dogs out of the litters but nothing that made it to the show. And if she had been a male with the same resume she would have been bred a hundred times on reputation/resume alone. And I am pretty sure it would have been a lottery type win to get CH Angel all over again.
So the good dogs, even the great dogs, can come from anywhere.
Repeating the process will prove difficult.
EWO
Without a doubt my friend.
We had one in the 70's that his breeding was unknown.. Very good dog. He would put his nose to the floor to find the hog. We bred him to a Wilder bitch.. Got one decent one. But, nothing worth hunting.
There is a reason why you follow the blue print. It has been successful for many centuries prior to us.
You are correct but it is so much more fun chasing freaks. LOL
EWO
Lol..No doubt.
Not only is it nothing wrong with breeding a dog at a year's natural and normal.
It's sad that common sense isn't common and the masses are more in the state of novice than seasoned.
Many has always done this and it is not a fluke that you get good results.
It makes me and others shake our heads hearing peole questioning it as a tell they don't understand basic DNA.
A female does not have to be 2 or 3 years to go back her father. Nor and uncle or an aunt opr especialy and grand parent.
If people had the basics understanding of breeding and breeding concept they will see tat most of all families line bred especially on specific males use this concept over and over regardless of what family. You will always see the same specific male on both top and bottom o beeing bred to another top and bottom.
The common sense is DNA don't change and when you are doing a breeding such as Father/daughter the outcome is 75% the Father.
The daughter is just carring the egg and noting more .
Linebred dogs such as 1/2 brother and sister carry and take after the common grand parent ,often the father, and if taken back to grandfather again the female does not matter regardless of age.
This is the difference between actually playing chess vs those who just do tic tac toe.. A chess player always playes way more than 1 move at a time.
1 move is needed to open up and do another and inmost cases it maybe 3 or more moves in advance. Same with dogs. If you have a good male you will breed to at least a handfull if not 2 handfull of different females with the intentions of combining all 1/2 siblings together , father to daughter a few times or all of the above.
Now when someone has 4 or more generations they are not guessing what they will turn out like such as a newby who only owns the 1st generations parents. Someone who has hands on 8 generations will not guess what will be the results when breeding 2 dogs they have seen each and eveyone in every litter..
Now when you get on my level breeding and havng hands on with each and everyone in each and every litter for 17 strait generations ad hands on fro 20 generations is something you know in your sleep what you will get breeding a pair especially doing a Father daughter ,Uncle niece, Grandfather/Granddaughter and so on. That's just a common sense issue.
The same novices that talk about and can't understand hwo someone who has hands on so many can know an outcome with thier own dogs some how pretend to know what you will get crossing dogs from families they did not put together nmor dogs they never had thiier own hands on..
It's basic breeding and standard breeding that people do Old dogs to young dogs and if or when they breed 2 young ones it maybe just to go to and old grandfather while he can still breed.
The seasoned dogmen should know it's a long term planning or game of chess not a case by case just buying other peole dogs each generation. That's not chess , that's tic tac toe. aka step by step..
All of my breedings are planned years and generations in advanced.. If one breeding does n ot turn out another one that did replaces it..
Again you breed key dogs to a handfull or more when line breeding so you already know what will be bred to what and why and if someone thinks you need to wait years to breed a Father to his daughter just to have one to go to another father daughter based on the exact same male someting is real wrong with that person.
Over 45 years of hands on experience with this breed and whole life with dogs breeders and oher breeds.
There is an old book "Dog Breeding for Professionals" that cam out around the early 90's that will inform some who need to hear the same thing from some one who looks different.
Breeding young to old is just as basic as it gets .. But the basics are not basic anymore.. too many of the misslead only looks at 1/2 the game and not the whole game.. It doesn't matter when going back to something it came off.
Just 1 of many hands on experience. You can pull up all 15 generations and my name still goes back further.
This breeding
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...thumb_id=25291 .
was bred to go with this breeding
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=87666 .
[QUOTE=bossman311;49104]Not only is it nothing wrong with breeding a dog at a year's natural and normal.
It's sad that common sense isn't common and the masses are more in the state of novice than seasoned.
Many has always done this and it is not a fluke that you get good results.
It makes me and others shake our heads hearing peole questioning it as a tell they don't understand basic DNA.
A female does not have to be 2 or 3 years to go back her father. Nor and uncle or an aunt opr especialy and grand parent.
If people had the basics understanding of breeding and breeding concept they will see tat most of all families line bred especially on specific males use this concept over and over regardless of what family. You will always see the same specific male on both top and bottom o beeing bred to another top and bottom.
The common sense is DNA don't change and when you are doing a breeding such as Father/daughter the outcome is 75% the Father.
The daughter is just carring the egg and noting more .
Linebred dogs such as 1/2 brother and sister carry and take after the common grand parent ,often the father, and if taken back to grandfather again the female does not matter regardless of age.
This is the difference between actually playing chess vs those who just do tic tac toe.. A chess player always playes way more than 1 move at a time.
1 move is needed to open up and do another and inmost cases it maybe 3 or more moves in advance. Same with dogs. If you have a good male you will breed to at least a handfull if not 2 handfull of different females with the intentions of combining all 1/2 siblings together , father to daughter a few times or all of the above.
Now when someone has 4 or more generations they are not guessing what they will turn out like such as a newby who only owns the 1st generations parents. Someone who has hands on 8 generations will not guess what will be the results when breeding 2 dogs they have seen each and eveyone in every litter..
Now when you get on my level breeding and havng hands on with each and everyone in each and every litter for 17 strait generations ad hands on fro 20 generations is something you know in your sleep what you will get breeding a pair especially doing a Father daughter ,Uncle niece, Grandfather/Granddaughter and so on. That's just a common sense issue.
The same novices that talk about and can't understand hwo someone who has hands on so many can know an outcome with thier own dogs some how pretend to know what you will get crossing dogs from families they did not put together nmor dogs they never had thiier own hands on..
It's basic breeding and standard breeding that people do Old dogs to young dogs and if or when they breed 2 young ones it maybe just to go to and old grandfather while he can still breed.
The seasoned dogmen should know it's a long term planning or game of chess not a case by case just buying other peole dogs each generation. That's not chess , that's tic tac toe. aka step by step..
All of my breedings are planned years and generations in advanced.. If one breeding does n ot turn out another one that did replaces it..
Again you breed key dogs to a handfull or more when line breeding so you already know what will be bred to what and why and if someone thinks you need to wait years to breed a Father to his daughter just to have one to go to another father daughter based on the exact same male someting is real wrong with that person.
Over 45 years of hands on experience with this breed and whole life with dogs breeders and oher breeds.
There is an old book "Dog Breeding for Professionals" that cam out around the early 90's that will inform some who need to hear the same thing from some one who looks different.
Breeding young to old is just as basic as it gets .. But the basics are not basic anymore.. too many of the misslead only looks at 1/2 the game and not the whole game.. It doesn't matter when going back to something it came off.
Just 1 of many hands on experience. You can pull up all 15 generations and my name still goes back further.
This breeding
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...thumb_id=25291 .
was bred to go with this breeding
[url]http://www.thepitbullbible.com/for
Only people that I have know that breed dogs from seven months to year old males and two year old bitches normally. In the dog show ring it's about looks! Mainly scattered bred dogs also.
It's about what your breeding for!! Untested young dogs off untested sire and dams have historically throw anything you can use in the open division! We did that in the open division against seasoned dogmen when we started over 38 years ago. We got our asses sent to boot hill..lol
There levels to the open division and years prior we have seen these theories applied many times with negative long lasting results.
But, we live and we learn. We came up in the 70's. If Breeding year old untested dogs was successful, trust everyone would have breed the pants off those young dogs years prior.lol
Everyone uses the exception to the rule situation..
[QUOTE=State Bull;49114]Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman311
Thanks for posting this. Yard management is a different skill. I do have value for testing and earning. There is a point where you can lose everything. If you feel you have something you may need to make the breeding and monitor the children. You make me feel good saying that you plan your breedings years in advance. I think you can do this when you know what you are trying to create.
[QUOTE=Frank43;49115]Quote:
Originally Posted by State Bull
I doubt that Floyd waited years with each dog before going right back to the same male and this dog was at the start iof what most feed these days
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=460
Same with Patrick and this dog
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=1297
Dogs like this
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=48378 and so on.
Too many did have will breed in patterns keying on a certain dog or cross .
They don't alwasy have to guess each generation what will go with what .
each breeding is a risk. When you learn more about the family you are dealing with you adjust. more chances you take for putting a weak link in the gene pool is on the breeder. Starting from zero to build something probably means taking a risk and dealing with it once your numbers are up. otherwise you're always starting over.
Making breedings are not a risk knowning how to breed not just what to breed.
You learn what you don't know from actaully doing and no other way when it comes to these dogs.
No matter what you feed and why , you have to actuially go thru each one to see what and what does not meet the standard.
Dogs don't have to be related , you make dogs that turn out related.
Breeding schemes, Punnet squares and so on that were well known in the past or all but gone these days.
I used dogs no one had with house hold names everyone had all built down from families based on Gr Ch's .
We didn't have computers nor did will read and stick with books.
Hands on and talking to those with hands on was the best teachers.
After hands on and 1st hand experience with 20 strait generation & from 20 pure families there is little guess work going on these days.
You know what you got long before you even breed them.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=87666
Tells me everything i need to know about that perspns breeding practices and yard. Not somebody i'd ever want to take a chance ons stock.
RIGHT NOW I HAVE A 10 YEAR OLD BITCH THAT HAS NEVER BEEN BRED. REASONS BEING IS BECAUSE WHEN SHE CAME IN THE FIRST COUPLE OF TIMES MY PRIDE WAS LIKE "I AIN'T BREEDING NO DAMN PUPPY" . THEN AFTER THAT SHE HAS NEVER SWELLED UP OR BLED LIKE HER FIRST 2 HEATS.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=19466
Our RB bitches back in the day.. Came in once a year..But, when bred tight that happens at times.
I would have taken her to a good reproductive vet, to find out yet when she younger to find out what her issue was.
In shows dogs they breed them at sevens months .But, that's a different game.with them using young dog's, the semen is more vaiable off the younger dogs.
[QUOTE=bossman311;49126]Facts he wasn't waiting, hell the most famous breeding of all time was a young black dog bred to a 8 month old gyp Eli x Spook. 2 young unproven dogs bred together and Jerry chose Eli strictly off color lol. If you ever talk to Mitch Kemmer and he give you the history of dogs that they bred and his father was known as a hardcore dogman. They bred them young as well and they kept them and went through him. Hell he would say how floyd bred them young all the time and even bred the curs lol. Nobody cares if it turns out good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank43
Everybody has to earn their own merit regardless of who the parents are who the grandparents are etc. When you use your own judgment, money and rules you determine what your future becomes. I don't knock anybody for their practices even if I disagree. I know good dogs are where you find them.
I have seen alot of scatter bred young breedings in my time..We got dogs from Clouse prior to his death..The dogs were off Clouse Judge.. We bred them to few good scatter bred young bitches.. Unproven.. All we got were hot acting puppies, that once mature were just rough curs..Now we had some very good dogs off Hemphill Geronimo/Wilder's Maxmillion blood. Now that taught us a valuable lesson..lol.. Follow the blue print..It's a reason why, the best of the pass had the success they did.
But, those days are long gone..With the current fad, if you have good dogs and they don't have five different lines in it.I would try to preserve it.
AMEN