Does anyone have any info on Stidham and his old dogs? These dogs would have been in the Carolinas during the 60's, 70's, and 80's.
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Does anyone have any info on Stidham and his old dogs? These dogs would have been in the Carolinas during the 60's, 70's, and 80's.
If you could get CYJ to chime in on this one I would say he would be the resident expert.
Like all pedigrees, they have to be taken with a grain of salt.
(copied the below form another board)
The Stidham blood was well known in the hills of NC. It goes back to solid Hemphill and Really the old red dogs. I loved all the guys from those mountains and Stidham may not been a house hold name but he was a serious breeder....If you look on my Panther's pedigree...his sire Monzon was down from the same blood as Jocko....which is why I tried to secure this blood from Fletcher ...before he was sold. There were several men that utilized that blood...Cable, Long, Hughes and Crebbs...Calvin Crebbs may have been the best dogman I ever met and nearly nobody knows him at all. He was an elderly black gentleman that was a serious chicken man also. He had trouble reading and writing thus he never registered any dogs. He was nuts about gameness and when he rolled a dog after it was schooled out it was either a keeper or gone period. All his dogs came from Long and Stidham as did Cables....Mr Crebbs would sell dogs to many of the SC and Georgia dogmen with no papers....and he said he never heard from them again. He said that Red Boy was from his yard and bred similar to Jocko's dam....maybe the Red Boy Jocko cross was actually line bred? Anyway check the ped of Haney's Gr Ch Little Roy out of Longs female...sister to panther's grand dam.....all those dogs foundation was from deep game dogs from serious men not peddlers. Remember there was not much money in dogs in those days and what you had had to pass the grade because most of those men bet on their own stuff. I am glad someone ask about that blood as it was special and rare. Panther 's sire Monzon was from the same group and he was dead game which I think was the main reason my Zebo dogs had much more heart than most of the other strains....and for me...I learned from those wise old men....the cornerstone of all lines has to be gameness I was just lucky enough to have produced one of the hardest mouth dogs in pit history - Panther - and he was full of those dead game genes, much like what george Long did with using Duke, son of Andy over top those Stidham dogs....I still have it 40 years later and I dont let much out....mainly because most dont appreciate the real effort that went into securing a solid line of dogs....sorry to ramble but I hope I answered your question....Crebbs, cable, Long , Hughes, Morris....knew what Stidham had...and used it accordingly
Many believe a lot of the Stidham blood was back and forth from Mr. Crebbs/Krebbs (not sure on the spelling)
Some believe those Crebbs/Stidham dogs were the dogs that made and ended up being Red Boy.
Those dogs were hard tested, matched for peanuts and then bred when they were truer than true.
The kicker is that a lot of the Crebbs/Stidham dogs were bred under the names of the buyer's best dogs.
Mr. Crebbs said the best way to check a dog is to roll him hard, bite him down today. Get him off the chain 1st thing in the morning. If he will scratch when stiff and sore from the day before, he is a bulldog.
A lot of the Stidham dogs got 'lost' in the breedings of more popular breeders.
EWO
EWO,
Do you have more info on Calvin Crebbs?
I love history
Hello All. If my memory is correct. Sonny Shropshire from Eden N.C. Who was a accomplished Game Cock breeder and Game Cock conditioner. Whom I went several times with Sonny and Tar Heel Matt on at least one occasion, to Box Wood.
Box Wood was one of the last legal places to hold Cock Derbies back then. It was just over the N.C. line and into the Virginia line. Sonny was experimenting with some Jap/Hatch etc. crosses. These cocks were powerful/very hard to kill. but too slow. Yet any that went into the drag pit, the other cock was in big trouble. Sonny for awhile gave the game dogs a try and was successful. I had some great times at the Box Wood events and just visiting on week ends with Sonny. Sonny had some of my Carver/Creel x Coplin bred dogs along with a black colored, full brother to my Young's Jake dog.
Sonny later got discouraged,on how many of the dog men conducted themselves. Told me he felt the game cock men he knew were on the average far more honest. So later He quit the dogs and went back to his Game Chickens. He always liked the pure Hatch fowl. Some years later I tried to contact Sonny to find out where all his dogs went to. Sadly he had passed with a heart attack while out on his Game Fowl yard.
Now to the Stidham dogs. Most pedigrees showed the Stidham dogs carrying a lot of old family red nose lightner blood from Mr. Bob Hemphill's dog yard. I asked Sonny about the Stidham dogs and at that time Mr. Stidham was still alive. Sonny said that Mr Stidham was predominately a game cock fowl breeder and competitor. He also did keep some game dogs on his place. Most of that blood line came directly from Mr. Hemphill. Sonny said that Mr. Stidham game tested his game dogs hard as he checked out his game fowls. He checked them extra/extra hard once a dog was mature enough to take it.
So those that got any of his tested Hemphill old family red nose stock. You could count on some deep game dogs or pups bred from deep game dogs. With his dogs, gameness was first and foremost over ability. Sonny back then had planned for us to visit Mr. Stidham and a few other older N.C. dog men you see on a lot of the UKC registered dogs. Sadly I never got too
Not much on Mr. Crebbs. He was long before my time.
The guy that turned me onto dogs as kid was friends with Bass and Marlowe. He and Bass were a lot alike. Blowhards/border line bullies, but like most, picked the targets.
Red Boy has about four or five pedigrees floating around and maybe that many more theories.
I was taught to go the way of the Bullet dogs when I was younger but then over the years some things changed.
I was told the story of Mr. Calvin and his deep game line of dogs. He drug them hard and when they won it was pretty much being game and durable, not much conditioning, mostly heart. I was told of the way he checked his dogs and it sounded a bit much for me.
CYJ knew Mr. Teal back then and even then, there were a number of stories how Red Boy came to fruition.
I was told a story some years back about Mr. Teal getting the dog that ended up being Red Boy from an old black man. He had put together a line of dogs that would scratch to a sign post, over and over, all nite if need be. His name was Mr. Calvin.
Then maybe ten years ago I was with an older fellow who had dogs off of Red Boy and Cleo, owned a litter mate to Yellow John, and pretty much brought the Red Boy strain to our neck of the woods in NC way back when. Without asking or hinting he let in on a story about Mr. Teal and a restaurant and an old black man who could not read nor write but had amassed dogs that the more popular dog men (white) were getting dogs from. They were deep game, real durable, thick hided dogs that would simply stay, no matter. As he told the story he said Mr. Crebbs.
I had heard the story from a different person and come to find out Calvin was his first name and Crebbs was his last. Same person, same story, different story tellers.
Both men said a lot of the dogs that were Stidham bred were dogs back and forth from Mr. Crebbs yard, as well as some of the dogs of Cable and Teal breedings.
Like most stories around a dog's origin I lead off or end up with, I can't verify any of it, and if it is a lie, 'he' told it and I am indeed guilty of repeating it.
Where Mr. Crebbs's dogs came from or where they went to and who bred what and bred under what name. That is far beyond me.
Both story tellers said they saw Mr. Crebbs go get a dog off the chain that had been hammered really hard the night before. It was cold and the dog was banged up, sore, and pretty much pulled form the house. He was faced to another dog. If he scratched he was a bulldog.
Again, both guys told stories that were pretty much the same, some ten years a part and they knew of each other but did not knwo each other.
I am not sure how Red Boy was bred, and not that it really matters today, but for the sheer nostalgia and history, I am choosing the one that leads one to believe he was from the Crebbs yard.
Again, CYJ can add first hand experience form that neck of the woods during that time.
EWO
I find all these things interesting. I wouldn't doubt that they are true. There is another breeder I wouldn't mind knowing about. He name was V whitley. He had what looks like redboy/medilin outlaw crosses and some yellow john added in. The reason I think that the story is true. Is the climate in some of these areas and mentality. There is a high focus on mouth winning fast, best to best breeding. True line breeding is built on different things. Gameness being one. It requires a long term view. Most in some of these places have little respect for a dog that will scratch to its own death. A dead dog is just a dead dog. Plus most people don't want to pick that dog up. "that mf lost my money. He need to be punished." Everybody isn't like this but the person who is will be a internal independent thinker. His dogs will be more valuable as he makes better breeding decisions. You can't say how good your dogs are so you have to stay under the radar. maybe you can find someone with access to the big shows to see how your stock does. If it wins you may never get credit. He may never give up his source of good dogs. You loose credit and maybe history forgets these people. They are probably behind a lot of good dogs. Plus the day that the game became illegal you add the cops to the mix. You better stay real low key and not piss off someone who doesn't want you there in the first place, or peddle dogs to their competition. I can think of Roadblock and gr ch joey. He found legal problems when he started flooding the market with joey dogs. Crebbs was probably a bad ass. Like a black chavis. I'd like to know more about v. whitley. he looks like a civil engineer in the picture. His kennels seem well built and just by blood it looks like he like his dogs on the game side. they seem close to cottingham dogs. Is there any info on him? he seems like an honest competitor by the picture and not the shit talking loud mouth I can't stand. The fact that his kennel set up is so well done i would bet his dogs ate well, got picked up when they needed to. Something that a lot of loud mouth shit talkers don't do.
Finally,we may be getting much closer to actual facts on Red Boy. Unless I could catch Katie Marlowe to herself for awhile. Ask her about the Calvin Crebbs dogs. I am sure she knew of Mr. Crebbs. She will talk no dogs around her business or with her husband present. Red Boy is passed on but still lives today in infamy.
I will repeat again that Bass' Red Boy was a very deep game dog that liked the head and nose. Red Boy was a slow methodical thinking type dog. Was welled schooled,knew how to get out of a bad hold and was a hard pressure biting type dog. That big, bad to the bone female bitch, that was showed against Red Boy. Hit Red Boy hard in the shoulders then into the stifles. Red Boy was calm and slowly reached over and took her out of his stifle with a bad nose hold. Which Red Boy maintained till she broke from the intense pressure and tried to run. Red Boy was never out of holds.
The old timers like Earl Tudor believed in checking out the dog first and look up the papers at a later date. The most important thing to do is obtain dogs from real dog men that used their dogs and their money for what they were bred to do.
Majority of the dogs today probably have a Heinz 57 variety of made up pedigrees of so and so dogs. They do not become your blood line till you have spent time breeding and culling the ones you bred up. If one is a honest breeder,then where your name starts everything is good. If not, well we are right back to the registered Heinz 57 variety. LOL
Frank43, I am not much at writing and have poor English skills. Yet it does not hurt to use some spacing of your paragraphs. Instead of running all your comments into one continued line of words.
Excellent post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Will do sometimes I get excited talking about this.
Again, this is more in CYJ' wheelhouse but here goes....
Some believe the Stidham/Crebbs version of Red Boy because one of the more prolific 'clicks' of all time was when the Red Boy family was introduced to the Jocko family. Basically the Stidham family top and bottom of the Rast's Queenie dog.
The theory is you pretty much end up with 3/4 Stidham/Crebbs dogs with Mr. VJ's Hank dog being the out. So these dogs were bred to perform.
Then when they went to the brood pen that 3/4 consistently reproduced itself over time. Basically creating a new family in the dogs.
If one went with any of the other Red Boy versions, then the original Jocko-Red Boy dogs would have performed but it would have been a lot of different dogs in there and 'scatterbred' would come to mind. Not often will scatterbred dogs produce as well as the Jocko-Red Boy dogs, which later became Red Boy Jocko as the Red Boy fame balloned.
With this post an $1.25 you would be short on a soft drink or cup of coffee. Pretty much meaningless now. But great conversation.
EWO
Ditto EWO. The dam of Red Boy and where Red Boy and Red Boy's litter were born was in Florence S.C. I got to see all of those dogs. Owned for awhile one of Red Boy's litter mates. Was a tiger brindle named Bouncer, and was a game acting dog.
One of the gamest of those dogs was one that was a smaller looking version of Red Boy. This dog was owned by a Mr. Linsey, in Hartsville S.C. This dog had loose it's collar and gotten hold of a next door neighbor's pet dog. Mr. Linsey had no break stick, and too quickly get his dog off this yard dog. Mr. Linsey hit his dog in the back of the head near the spine with a coke bottle. If I remember correctly. His dog was knocked out cold. In the days that passed this litter mate to Red Boy went stone blind.
I saw this dog rolled more than one occasion in this condition and never failed to scratch like a freight train. If missed the other dog, would smell for the other dog and take hold. If my memory serves me right, all of the males in Red Boy's litter showed to be game acting, rough and tumble type dogs. Miles owned I believe the only female and was a black female. Was a cold bitch at two years old and Miles put her down. Probably a bad mistake, this female should have been bred at least one time.
IMHO, It has always been that the Red Nose Red Dog that was in the back of a pick up truck that drove up to the gas pumps at Mr. Teal's Restaurant.. That Mr. Teal either bought or borrowed and was the sire of Red Boy and it's litter mates.
Some thought Teal's Tip, some thought Red Devil bred dog etc. With this new information and thoughts. I am now inclined to believe that Red Boy's sire was a Calvin Crebbs/Stidham bred dog. That would make all the sense in the world how the Red Boy blood nicked with the Jocko/Mayfield Lightning etc. dogs.
Now the rest of the story is this. Right before Mr. Gainey quit the dogs. He had really refined his Red Boy/Jocko dogs. A yard of great looking, powerful, big boned, twice as big for their weight type dogs. As I looked over his dogs. I turned to Mr. Gainey and told him. Mr. Gainey I believe you have brought back to life and resurrected the ole Jim Williams Lightner/Dibo dogs. Cheers
I would like to add that Katie Marlowe's son Bo was coming to our Church for awhile. Bo's daughter was good friends with my Pastor's daughter. I asked Bo if he could set up a time and place to meet with Katie. I wanted to ask her about this very subject. Sadly he told me he and his mom had a falling out about something or the other. This was about two years ago now.
Katie told me a good many years back during a visit. That she was planning to post Red Boy's corrected pedigree. At that time she had started a dog registry. She was in a good mood that day. Just as I was going to ask her some more about this issue. A renter drove up to look at one of her rental mobile homes.
After that she did not bring it back up and I did not ask any more about it. Cheers