Has anyone ever heard of this food? Is it any good?
https://sportdogfood.com/elite-grain...yABEgLYD_D_BwE
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Has anyone ever heard of this food? Is it any good?
https://sportdogfood.com/elite-grain...yABEgLYD_D_BwE
I'm not much on feeding fish when working a dog really hard.
The few times I tried to use a feed with fish as a main ingredient the dogs ran hot. It took a couple of times before I narrowed it down to the fish made feed.
Off season it is a good source of nutrient dense protein.
I'd be looking for more fat and less protein that what this bag advertises.
EWO
Misfit. Read Ca Jack's Blog on Kibble feeds. The moisture may be to low on this feed. With it's main source of Protein being Fish. Could be very hard on a dog's kidneys with such a low moisture content. Especially in the hotter parts of the country.
Chicken meat and Chicken fat has proven to be the better protein and fat source over all for our breed of dogs. Much Easier on the kidneys. Especially in the warmer climate areas.
Now way up North and into Canada may be a different story. If you watch how that dog sled person, feeds his sled dogs on that Zero Below series. He still uses a lot of fluids in his feed. Dogs look like they are eating Fish soup with kibble thrown in.
J. Crenshaw and V. Jackson both used Chicken meat as the main protein source. I like the way V.J. did it with Chicken necks and Chicken backs. This way you got enough meat protein in balance with the natural bone protein and Chicken fat from the skin off the backs. He used only the amount of kibble feed that kept the dog on show weight in the pre keep.
In hot weather a lower protein/fat kibble was used and in cold weather a higher protein/fat kibble was used. Were still a Chicken based kibble.
During the pre keep V.J reduced the dog on the kibble with his added supplements. Dog was wormed out during this time period also. When dog was on weight, feeling good, match was made. One chicken neck and back was added with enough of the chicken broth to cover kibble. Then the hard work began. Dog was kept on weight by adding more necks and backs with added broth in the feed. No added kibble. This was closer to what many call a raw diet.
J. Crenshaw in the main phase of the keep used the kibble to maintain the body weight. I do not believe he increased his amount of Chicken meat. He tells all this on the video on the You tube.
J. Crenshaw used the Chicken meat taken off the bone and fed in what he considered the required amount of chicken meat for that particular dog. He maintain the weight of the dog by adding the Purina Pro kibble as needed. I am pretty sure that the majority of what Purina used for Protein in their feed formula was a lot of bone meal.
If you try to add too much water to this Fish meal Kibble. It will dilute the vitamin/mineral formula etc.. Some things in feeding may have improved some what. Still a dog is a dog and the basics of what they eat have not changed over all.
When some one asks me about conditioning dogs. I first ask them where and what part of the country do you live in? How many free hours in a day do you have to spend working a dog. How much privacy do you have? That has a big bearing on everything. Especially today. Cheers
Great info EWO, I like to supplement with various types of fish but only a couple times a week.
What about oils, do you use fish oil?
This feed reads great, and I bet it's very good quality. I have to agree with EWO on too high protein in dog feed, it tends to work the kidneys harder and you'll get dehydrated easier I've noticed.
Overall I'd feed some of these formulas, the food has great ingredients.
S_B
Great info CYJ, I too have noticed fish formula kibble to be dryer than chicken.
What about red meat, what do you feel about it as a protein and fat source?
S_B
I use fish oil during the year but sparingly when working hard.
I feed a lot of fat and a lot of protein. Little to no carbs and steer clear of the fish based proteins.
I would think if one was successful with fish the amounts of water needed would be huge. The dog would have to be really wet and the temperatures would have to be extremely cold.
Rural NC just does not get that cold for long periods of time. It may drop really cold at night but seldom is it freezing over a day or so. That would play a part in why the fish did not work around here.
CYJ is spot on lining up certain dogs in certain areas in certain temps.
EWO
I prefer chicken and chicken fat as a primary but use beef fat as well.
One of the red meats that I do like is cow cheek. It is not all that popular in stores. It is a really fatty cut of red meat. It works well.
EWO
From my understanding I was told a dog when under strong exertion breathed cooler and recovered faster when fed Chicken fat versus beef fat etc. was primarly used. Not sure about Beef meat protein and how the absorption of the beef protein compares to the chicken meat protein. I believe all Protein amino acid profiles are based upon the Egg. So probably the Protein factor is not always the issue over all.
Probably with the beef it is the type fat not so much the protein. Mayfield liked to use very lean cut up pieces of beef. Still today, who would want to do his keep down to the minute details? Would be a long drawn out day for sure. Day after day of that. I would be a wrack of nerves and half crazy. LOL
With some Proteins like Fish, where there is not enough need, to produce more heat in the body, for warmth. Where I live, fish meal even when using the whole fish. Becomes to rich and the dog will have kidney problems/dry skin and become listless.. I ruined a good dog in a keep using predominately whole ground up fish. Was way to rich and sure I fed way to much.
Chicken Necks/Backs and the broth will not hurt a dog balanced with some Kibble. Feed to much, the dog will just fatten up. Still feel great and shine like a new penny. LoL
I've heard of cow cheek also pork cheeks but never saw it offered for sale, at the slaughterhouse I use. Would this be a cut that's usually disregarded or a select cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
Walmart carries it from time to time.
It is way cheap. It is a low end cut.
EWO
Okay thanks buddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
One thing I learned from my mistakes and from finally taking some good advice from Vernon. You see for awhile I was trying V.J's ways and reading all sorts of dog nutrition books to boot. What I started too doing was trying to make things ten times better. LOL
There are many ways of doing something and the simpler one keeps it. The easier it is to solve a problem when one occurs. V.J's. feed method/times of feeding and pointing a dog the last three days was the easiest and simplest way I had saw or read about. Mayfield's way though not incorrect would be a tedious nightmare to me.
Unfortunately I was not a Master Staff Sargent and had a gang of young marines to help me. I did not have enough hours in the day and access to long soft back roads to work dogs. I knew I had to try a different approach and went with a large building and a extra large low to the ground running round table. Things started looking much better and everything got much easier.The way I worked a dog near the end of my time in the dogs. I was hitting all around it, but knew something was missing.
Was what EWO had learned from watching his son train for collegiate wrestling. The Karate and other type martial arts fighters had to learn this type training, when they got involved with Cage fighting. Thinking they were in top condition were getting their asses handed to them in short order.
That info. shared by EWO, hit me like a ton of bricks. I was thirty years to late. LOL In return I encouraged him to at some time build a extra big (16 FT To 20 FT) across round table out of the weather. That will not bounce and running at knee level when sitting in a chair close to dog.
When one can work a dog and it can grab and drive it's opponent back into it's corner and pound on it like Mr. T pounded Rocky in their first bout with no let up. That is indeed some great conditioning. LOL Cheers
Sorry Misfit, for getting off subject. With any of those better formula dog foods. If it has a high protein source especially fish based. Check the moisture content. I believe you want at least around 12 percent moisture. Reason those Fish based kibbles and some others have such lower moisture contents. Is to give the feed more shelf life. More moisture, the sooner it may spoil on the shelf or grow some sort of fungus among us. LOL
The amount of Ash may have some bearing as well. Not sure if Ca Jack mentioned that in that blog. I think to much ash or not enough is bad for cats. That the ash content is what makes cat food bad to feed dogs. Not sure about all that anymore. If wrong I stand corrected. Cheers
Thanks for all of the info. A buddy of mine was asking about that feed. I figured I'd ask here. Told him to just feed raw or use Jacks meat/brown rice recipe.
Reading the sled dogs sites for their feeding methods is a good place to start when working a dog. Hundreds of years ago the sled dogs were fed huge amounts of fat because the whale blubber was what was there for the dogs. When sled dogs became competitive athletes man decided he would re-invent the wheel. Fed those dogs like humans with carbs and proteins over time the dogs went to squat. Through research and trials it was found the dogs performed better on a higher fat percentage in their feed.
Few bulldog people are in a climate where they can match the fat content of the sled dog folks. At the same time few bulldog people allow their dog to sleep outside in freezing to sub freezing temperatures while in competition. The fish is nutrient dense. It takes time for the gut to digest and assimilate fish. For the bulldog guy in the rural south this leads to running hot. For the sled dog guy in the great northern lands it means the dog will maintain body heat through the night. Then that 'slow churn' of the fish nutrients is also great for muscle recovery.
Chicken is far better digested and far better assimilated. Chicken backs and chicken necks do wonders. I try to max the amount of fat for each dog. They are all different. The dogs body and demeanor will tell a lot about how he needs to be worked but his daily dumps dictates his diet, if that makes sense. The fat content can be increased slowly over time til the stool gets loose. Back off. As the work increases the fat content can track with it. Some dogs can get as much as 50% of their carbs from straight chicken/beef fat. What works best is when it is in a fatty/soupy (broth) mixture.
The dog works off of fat and the proteins provided are mostly used for recovery. Two meals usually work best a fatty/soupy brothy meal 10-12 hours prior to work. A protein heavy supplemented meal right after work. Both dialed in for a certain weight on the dog.
Again, CYJ is spot on. I'm a carpet mill guy at heart but the table builds a different dog. Mine was a little small, just a hair short of 15', outdoors and a little too free but even missing those points I'm sold.
The car analogy always works best. No one builds a pro-mod or top fuel dragster and then uses pump gas for fuel. Dogs no different.
EWO
50% of their diet....night shifts can scramble the brain at times....
EWO
funny EWO, Im the opposite, i only feed fish when they're getting worked hard, i find their less likely to run hot on the fish diet and i cut red meat out because i though it was a contributing factor too running hot :)Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
What is the temps where you live when working?
EWO
i would think a lot colder than your location
I am venturing a guess the difference in using fish is not in the dogs but in the location and the temperature.
Here we drop below freezing at night but even in the winter get well above during the day.
I would use fish if we did not have a heavy load the next morning.
EWO
I'm kind of hung up on the "huge amounts" of water if using fish. That kind of contradicts the digestibility of fish which is the most easily assimilated protein of all meats, even oily fish.
http://www.eatingdisorderpro.com/wp-...ionProtein.jpg
As far as dog kibble I tend to agree it runs on the "dry" side, maybe the processing as fish is a more delicate meat source? Anyhow it sounds backwards to me that fish would burn hotter in a dogs gut as it is digested with much less energy than other meats.
I tend to look at nature (don't laugh :D ) for simple answers to these types of questions, as the scientific answers are over thought and complicated imo.
What mammals feed on fish? Big brute types like Bears
What mammals feed on birds? Small scavengers
What mammals feed on red meat? The apex predators Lions and Tigers Oh My!
I like to incorporate all meat sources, I let the individual tell me which they work best on. What I've found for myself is the endurance runners tend to do best with more chicken while the true power houses need more red meat to support their strength.
I'm always open and continue to learn, this topic I very much enjoy.
S_B
I agree. I'm no science guy either.
I have to with what I see. And I usually reference one of my first posts on this board along this same topic. If a guy wins on corn flakes and cabbage, and turns another onto the corn flakes and cabbage. A person will be hard pressed to get the science of meats and fats and what not conveyed to the corn flakes and cabbage guy. People like to go with what works for them.
Lil Man was being worked for his fourth. A dog that had no stop in him and would work himself til he fell, all day and every day. His work load was near twice that of any other dog I had seen and I felt like I was killing him to make him breathe.
I tried to work some fish in as we got going and the next day he blew hot. I chalked it up to 'they are not machines'. Skipped a day and he was fine. I did not attribute anything to the fish. A week or so later I fed a fish filet, Flounder I think, and he blew out in less than 20 minutes.
I went back over everything I had done and the only thing different was the fish. I finished him out and he made #4 with no breathing issues.
Being I am not the smartest guy sometimes I have to be hit over the head. I took two young dogs and immediately started them thru the paces of a keep, just like it was several stacks involved. When I thought they were both off water and ready to really give it their all for an extended period of time I added a fish filet to their diet, rested a day, fed another filet and back to work. Neither dog made it 20 minutes without blowing hot. I pulled them off the fish and they both went back to being their normal.
Since it works so well for the sled dogs in the frigid temperatures my first thought is that it is the temperature moreso than the dogs. No science, just an assumption.
A friend of mine uses fish and he works his dogs on a 5 and 2 schedule. He says he uses fish on the 5th work day because the nutrient dense proteins really aid in recovery, but he pours the water to them on the 5th day of work and the 1st day of rest in their feed. The second day is back to the chicken based diet and he feels he gets a good recovery.
The kicker is he lived in up state New York, which is also much colder on average than rural NC.
But I have read others comments that it works for them.
Kinda sorta, go figure?
EWO
I have never seen that chart explained.
Is that rate for the time it is ate, assimilated and a dump?
Is it the time it is ate, assimilated and worked it's way out of the bloodstream, then dumped?
Not being a science guy I would say the fish proteins are quicker thru the gut but the nutrient dense proteins maybe hang around in the liver and kidneys/blood longer.
Great topic.
EWO
One thing I learned from not watching the dehydration process on a hard working dog. Was I did not pull up that skin everyday and I did not give a broth fluid drink with some liquid supplements 12 hours from main work out.
A excellent dog nutrition book I had at one time. Taught that a working dog's endurance was increased up to 85% with additional water in presence of good fats. A dog gets most of it's energy from the fats in presence of adequate water. Not so much from carbohydrates per say.
I had this dog up to six hours trotting and running on a 80 foot swinging jenny. Probably half of that was enough for the local completion I was dealing with. The results of missing enough water cost me the show. I lost a deep game dog to a rank hard biting cur that was never matched again or heard of. I was ahead for around thirty minutes, and was seeing the quit in the other dog. All of a sudden the bottom fell out of my dog,it could not even stand. Was not blowing hot for sure. Just no electrolytes to make the heart/lungs and muscles to continue working.
You can not just assume your dog is getting enough water in the keep. In the future I added enough broth to cover the kibble and let soak. I started adding a water/broth supplements 12 hours before work out. Things got to looking much better. I got a good win over Mr. Pratt with Braddock's Mr. Clean.
Certain proteins will digest slower or faster for sure. Still, if you use kibble in the feed mix. The main workout will eventually go out to a 28- 30 hour feeding. Those last three workout rest days need to stay at a 28 to 30 hour feed cycle. If using kibble in the feed mix. One will make a bad mistake if on those last three rest days one puts the dog back on a 24 hour feed cycle. When it has been on a 28 to 30 hour feed cycle for that last main week of work.
Dog will not have enough time to clean out all the way, can run the dog hot. Why it is a bad mistake to enter your dog in Multi dog shows.
The main dog show personnel always gets to go first, one can find themselves going too early or too late as the show continues. Either way can affect the way your dog performs.
Water drank by the dog at a specific time will clear the dog's kidneys in six hours. So in that 28 to 30 hour period as the dog goes through a making weight and peaking process. If your dog is weighing light after each clean out period and walk, rub down etc. You can give the specific amount of ounces of fluids to make weight up to six hours before final weigh in and show time. J, Crenshaw says it is possible up to three hours.
Most will not give any water after the 30-28- 24 hour last feeding before final weigh in and show time. If dog comes up 1/4/ 1/2 to 1 pound light or more. Could be from slow dehydration. Dog may not run hot. Still if the dog show goes a while,is a very rough show. One's dog will grow weaker as the time progress. Better to be a tad on the wet side than dry at all. I know I have this post bouncing all around. We have to try and see all the factors involved.
By the time one gets a lot of this figured out and has a good system that works for them. Murphy's law sets in and starts wrecking havoc in your life and your dog yard. If you are not a young person. Can break the will to keep going on. It takes a Spartan mind/Spartan body to handle these Spartan bred dogs. Cheers.
Agreed.
Hydration is the absolute key. Muscle tie up is almost a certainty when the water level goes south.
Early on I wanted/needed to be in total control so I dictated fluid intake in every feeding and did not leave a fresh water source for the dog during non-working hours. From then on I made sure the dog had a fresh water bowl. I still added all the fluids during the feedings. Within a few weeks the water level hit the mark and the dog no longer uses the water bowl. As CYJ stated the dog can be dialed in by counting backwards the last 3-4-5 days and space the feedings out. A dog with healthy kidneys will piss himself correct.
That is most important when using dry food. It will soak a lot of water from the dog for digestion.
If a dog is fed raw or a lot of raw with a kibble mix just drop the raw and go straight dry for a few days. His water intake will double-triple and more.
Again, good topics wander.
I have often wondered if the fish is so nutrient dense it stays in the bloodstream and the muscle tissue retains the proteins and amino acids for longer thus the better recovery ability. I am guessing it magnifies with outside temperature. Still, not a science guy so I can't give anything more than an opinion.
The times I used the fish the dogs were wet and in really good shape. After a couple of days with plenty of water they were back. My best guess would be the outside temperature was too warm, and then time and fluids flushed it through.
Reading up on the sled dog guys that use kibble and fish it is always a really soupy/slop type mixture. Around here I can get the fluids right but can't force the temps down.
Again great topic. Wandering at times but good conversation.
EWO
Hey I enjoy reading both of you guys' experience, ideas and opinions! :D
And that is as good a saying as I ever heard about these dogs and their people! Cheers CYJ!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
S_B
Me too. Once upon a time the dog had to be as game as their owner. These days the owner has to be as game as their dogs.
CYJ can really speak to the changing in times.
EWO
i would say thats a fair assessment EWO
Nice read.
Great read.