Obviously gameness is no. 1. But what are some of the other important traits that you like or looking for (athleticism, intelligence, finish, etc.)?
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Obviously gameness is no. 1. But what are some of the other important traits that you like or looking for (athleticism, intelligence, finish, etc.)?
From the top, I'm no breeder. My dogs are bred to fill my chain spots and place really close to home. So this may be a breeder question but I enjoy the topic so I will chime in....with the grain of salt in hand.
Years ago I never considered gameness as part of the decision. It was a given. It was simply understood. Then the decision was can or did the parents get to the show? It was all about winning or the ability to win, or what I thought it would take to win. Narrow minded to say the least.
Fast forward a bunch of years and I can see where a breeder, a guy who had competed with his dogs and placed/sold them into another's hands and they competed, could have a much more broader outlook than me. The breeder can see something in one dog that he saw in another and use that information to his benefit. With that knowledge a breeder of a family of dogs can breed game plugs and even cold dogs with success. Some have even bred curs to make game dogs who in turn threw game dogs.
I would say the trait to look for would be the 'combination of traits that could make him/her a winner'. If that makes sense.
EWO
A lot of breeders just breed what's selling at the time. Some guys start out reading the SDJ and use the same crosses that are winning. I have had A lot of good dogs over my time and have met and done deals with a lot of the big names of the 80s and 90s and even into now. I've gotten a lot of good dogs from almost all of the big name blood lines. And some of the forgotten ones..
To me a good dog is Very SMART in sport. They can finish in just a few holds. Much more than 2 or 3 good hits its over. They can hold a ruff strong hog out for as long as they need to become the stronger one. They understand HOW to finish and WHEN AND WHERE!.. AND HAVE the gameness to get it done.
Very Intelligent. Good Mouth with most prospects. Will hold out a hog. Not Too straight forward.. Good finish and deep game..
I found mine with the Turtle buster, Nigerino , China man. And just bred the best of them together. It works just look at what you want and keep breeding those dogs from the same lines. Takes a while to get it right sometimes. And you might find out you can't work with what you start with. I wanted Jeep/Redboy dogs when they came on. I wanted to use those because my buddy's had some beautiful pupsand it was the new best thing. Well 50 dogs later I realized I was not a Jeep/Redboy dogman.and should have realized it 40 dogs sooner.
So good luck with it..
The peddler and the breeder both make puppies but are miles apart.
Agreed a lot of puppies are made in one place because that similar recipe was made successful at another place. Not just bulldogs but in every breed where there is profit in the sale of puppies.
Not being a breeder my breeding decisions were always the same as 'can he make it to the show?' or 'can he win?'. Those questions had to be answered with a yes in order to consider them fro breeding. Again, narrow minded.
I've had slick, hard mouthed head dogs that I thought if he can only breathe a little bit and is willing to go 60 minutes I will ride up and down the road with him. At the same time I've had that game hard mouthed dog that is a galoot, not as talented, but is dumb game and will scratch to a sign post. I'd ride with him too. I've had all night game dogs that could not bite butter, would not come in out of the rain but will still scratch to an oncoming train. I might try to pull off one with him in the hot summer but I would take at least one ride with him to see.
Maybe the best way to describe my "breeding theory" is I will breed a dog I am willing to bet on. If I can't muster up and let him ride one weekend there is no need to perpetuate from there.
That is why my breeding skills are limited and narrow minded.
EWO
And then I get a little older and try to be a little smarter.
Some really nice winning dogs were bred down off non-winnable plugs, cold dogs and even curs.
I'm trying to be a little more open minded about things.
My Sluggo dog from an earlier post. I have had a number of the dogs in his pedigree. High percentages of game dogs. His pops was a winning capable dog. His mom was a winner. The Mom's brother and sister were taken to the door and had no issue with going on in. His Pops had 4 of 7 game dogs (really 4 of 5 with two dead as pups) in his litter. The Ramera dog showed she had no remorse in handing it out and no fear of taking it in either.
A pedigree chock full of good dogs who performed and produced. And then there was Sluggo. Cold as ice. My brain says give him a breeding and my heart says 'make him show you first'. A real split in thinking, and miles apart from years past. It was a time when he would be no more.
I'm always interested in others thoughts on this topic because it was one I never gave two squirts a piss about for a lot of years.
EWO
wind would definitely be up there for me, you can win with it alone and a hell of a lot of losses are due to lack of if.
Ditto Palooka. IMHO, If the dogs you are raising. Do not show good air first, stamina and that diesel power lugging strength. It is unlikely it will show deep gameness when caught in a tight spot. Most old timers believed a Race Horse, Game dog or Game cock could be no gamer than it's breathing ability. Next how much of it's power to execute it's dominance over it's opponent to the death if required..
The famous Green Bay Packer Coach, Vince Lombardi. Probably saying it wrong. Stated that tiredness makes Cowards out of all of us. Even Runners in a short/ long distance race, Boxers, Wrestlers, Cage Fighters. Know what the saying means, hitting the wall. After that is when the desire/gaminess kicks in to win. Cheers
higher percentages and uniformity.
How much can air/stamina be improved through conditioning? If you have a dog with natural short air can you improve it to a level where it'll match a dog with a natural good air?
I personally like a smart dog that's athletic. Some dogs are clumsy and I feel it's a shortcoming. A really athletic dog can maneuver his/her way out of trouble and get into spots easier (this is just from an observer perspective).
It can be improved. The benefit of having natural air is the dog can be worked hard for muscular endurance. And the best part of natural air in a dog is the ability to recover.
Regardless of keeps, and regardless of conditioners, at some point the dog will say, "Whew, give me a minute and I will go back to kicking the snot out of the other camp".
The object of the keep is to shorten that duration of WHEW! as much as possible while stretching the length between the two WHEWS!. Dogs with natural air make that a lot easier.
For the conditioner it is one less thing to work on or improve upon.
EWO
Everyone has a preference. I think a lot has to do with where you are in dogs also. Are you in a place where you can out game the woods and live or is it thick and nasty and anything over 30 -45 you need a shovel even if you win.
Breed what can be hunted where you are. I have always hunted the southern part of the country. And everyone has fast ass killer type hounds LOTS of hard mouth Boyles dogs and Eli hound every freaking place . then them damn dog Fat Bill had let out crunching every thing down. Hell I could keep going but you understand. I breed Game Smart hard mouth dogs off my stuff now. They naturally have solid wind. But I'm at a point to where Gameness and mouth are the two most important thing I check for style can be improved with proper school. Wind will improve in my keep but Gameness is where its at and mouth gets it finished. They say you can't pass it but it seems too. Power is easy to fix you can help fast twitch mussel. So if I was starting out I would find the deepest game dogs that could bite like hell from a solid line of dogs just like that and improve it along the way.
Good advice.
EWO
Another thing is you can teach a dog to scratch. I've seen it way too many times. I can tell you of a dog man that use to have to clap his hands to get his dogs to scratch. And they would as long as they could. Every time he even waited one time to 5 to show me.
True,
Lots of people even long count their dogs while schooling to teach them tot scratch at the same time its part of game checking. Lots of dogs will scratch when they are all geeked up. Same dog may not choose to do so if he settles down some.
Scratching is the name of the game.
EWO
Yes but I'm talking about he had his dogs frickin to where they wouldn't move until he clapped his hands. Then they would go. Not a second before. And they was some hard to beat hard hitting top of the line bed dogs. He was just that good of a handler and dog man he had his charge in tune.
I'm very new to breeding but not winning. When I finally grew a little more I started breeding my own. Its an even more fun of a challenge than working. I breed rbj base dogs down from crews/burns/cottingham/lockjaw/bbc/ates/wilder/smith. Sounds like a lot when you put all of them together but its all close neat. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...eeding_id=7529 I believe in gameness 1st but wont leave the house without either smarts or punch.
I haven't seen any Ates dogs in a while. Mr. Ates kept some fine dogs. I hated to hear of his passing.Quote:
Originally Posted by stopem
Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Can you pull groups of three months old pups walk them and see who has the best wind?