Convo I once had with Mr Jack Kelly

I didn't know Mr Jack Kelly but we did exchange emails a few times.
I seen they had mentioned him in the last ADBA gazette.
Mr Kelly shared with me some info about dogs & people in my pedigrees.
One such conversation was about something we both had heard of pertaining to the Red Boy dogs & the Sorrells dog Ch Number one son.
It was a rumor about the dog Cleo I had heard of .
This is the reply in which Mr Jack Kelly had sent me.
Hello that Bert Sorrells/Cleo pedigree was posted by jdoranc. Seems he has only posted a topic on this site but one time. Which was not well received.
Would be nice to know who he actually is and where he got his info. Mr. Carl Mims told me that the Cleo bitch was out of a daughter of Bullet bred back to Bullet. But did not tell me the breeding on the dam side of the first breeding to Bullet. That would be important to know. Then you have the Fancier insisting that the Red Devil breeding in Lopassay's Bouncer is correct.
From my years in the dogs I learned that certain older inbred/line bred bloodlines carried certain traits of color, body build, even the type ears. Even if the pedigrees shown were correct or half correct.
The Basic lines were Colby/Colby-Corvino/Lightner brindles-Lightner Red nose strains. Take a good look at that McGee/Johnson's Apostle dog. This dog carries some of what is called Eli/Dibo breeding etc. The Colby gene is predominant in that dog. Looks just like a Colby dog. My Colby/Dibo Heinzl bred bitch Tina looked a lot like that dog.
The Red Boy line to me showed a lot of that Red Devil/Wilder-Wise-Hemphill Red Nose cross traits and maybe the Sorrels cross. Look more so like those dogs than Bullet bred dogs. Mr. Teal had two older brood bitches on his yard that were directly off Cotton's Bullet. They were mostly black with some white markings in chest. Looked nothing like a Red Boy bred line of dogs.
For as any Bullet breeding never saw a Bullet looking Black- Black/White marked dog on K.Marlowes dog yard. The Bullet bred dogs I ever saw or owned from dogs bred off Lopassay's Bullet/Bullet Two dogs were black or black/White marked dogs.
The only reason I mentioned any of this was seeing that same pedigree posted. Had seen a lot of Red Boy/Cleo bred dogs. They looked nothing like any Bullet dogs I have ever seen.
In this day and time best just deal with the dogs at the end of your chains. The breeding on Red Boy/Bullet/Eli have been argued about since I was in the game back in the 70's. The people that could have corrected the pedigrees are long dead.
If I was to get back into the game. Would start with some male dogs off McGee/Johnson's yard for the male line and hard bite traits. I knew TarHill when he was just getting into the dogs around his early twentys. He has the correct bred dogs that the pedigrees show. He and Ozzie Stevens were friends and TarHill got some good brood bitches from Ozzie.
For some brood bitches would go visit TaTonka Kennels and see what she has. Like those BLK &Tan off colored dogs shown. Shows that Hunter Sam/Tana breeding. Good Corvino blood in that line.
Just some of my opinions is all. You like your dogs you pay the feed bill. Enjoy your dogs. No one ever had a monopoly on the Dog game/Horse racing game/Game Chicken game. Good pulling dogs are where you find them. What is really hard to find is good dog conditioners. Good Luck
Here's the ped that was a starting point to that convo.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...&dog_id=446664
Just about most of what I feed is Sorrells topside with Ch Number One Son in it & Red Boy on bottom.
Most can pass more for pure Sorrells than pure Red Boy
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...&dog_id=574424
Just something to think about.

Hello bossman 311. Is this a mixture of several peoples thoughts on the Red Boy/Cleo line? Some of it looks like some of my first posts on this subject maybe not on this site. But on the on lines pedigree site. Not all of this article, maybe the part on Tar Heel Matt's dogs.

At first those Ta Tonka black and tans did catch my eye. There were some Black and Tan Bull Terrier looking dogs way back in the 1900 era dogs. I later learned that Ta Tonka also raised and sold Rottweiler's. So IMHO, there was a sudden color change in those dogs from the original buckskin colored Bert Sorrels' dogs. Not so sure I would try any of that line today, still just my opinion. That type of Black and Tan mix colors is very odd indeed. I would also shy away from any APBT dog that was merle colored like Great Danes.

Bass' Tramp Red Boy was hard game tested in the middle of the summer. On a, at least ninety to one hundred pound Great Dane/APBT cross. If you had not been told how that catch weight Great Dane /APBT cross was bred. You would have thought it was a large Catch weight APBT. Did not have a Great Dane looking head and it's ears was trimmed to boot.

When I saw Bass' Red Boy and Bass' Cleo chained in the back of Mr. Bass' yard. As I was studying this nice looking brood dog. What jumped in my mind and I asked Mr. Bass the question. Is Cleo a Bert Sorrells' bred dog. Cleo was built a lot like those early Bert Sorrels dogs. Still after seeing a picture of Cotton's Bullet and Bullet having a lot of Corvino blood as well.

Cleo being a black in color. May well have been bred down from Cotton's Bullet. Mr. Mims' told me what dog man Bass bought Cleo from. That he believed Cleo was from Cotton's Bullet breeding. Mr. Mims talks about a lot of stuff real fast and will chat for a good while. I would need the memory of a elephant or able to take all that info down with short hand writing. LOL

My thoughts are that whether through Cotton's Bullet or Bert Sorrells'. When those early breeding's were made with the Red Boy and early Bert Sorrells' bloodlines. Some dog fanciers on the on lines pedigree site. Said some very good dogs were produced.

One person with pad and pen might can solve this Cleo etc. saga. Lives close by, is a personal friend and admirer of Mr. Carl Mims. Might find out the dam pedigree or name of the first or last dam on the two Bullet line breeding's that produced Cleo. If it can be done, sooner than the later would be better. Mr. Mims is getting up in age.

It is possible, Cotton's Bullet may have been dead by the time Bass' Cleo was living. Cleo may be off a son or grand son of Cotton's Bullet. Back in the early 70's when I was visiting Mr. Teal's dog yard behind the Bowman Restaurant. He had two, I assumed were two direct daughters out of Cotton's Bullet. Both were solid black with white in the center of the chest. Both were old dogs.

I never saw all of Mr. Teal's dogs or saw the Cotton's Bullet dog if it was still alive. He owned a large farm as well. Kept more dogs out there in the country. Cheers

CYJ when I first read that yesterday I thought man that sure sounds like Johnny!!!!! I never had the pleasure of knowing Jack or talking to him but I have you, and this post has your signature all over it.

Bossman311 your post is kind of hard to follow without breaks in the paragraphs and it isn't clear where your thoughts are within the post.

I do think as usual it will turn into a good thread though!

S_B

Ditto S_B. I saw and met Jack Kelley in a passing moment. When he came down to Mr. Teal's place. Never knew him personally or had any in depth talks with him. Kelley's story on Red Boy is not 100% correct. Mr. Bass and Bass' Tramp Red Boy was no big mystery to any of us in that time era. Bass' Red Boy/later Katie's Red Boy, who bred Red Boy the most. Along with V. Jackson's Hank and William Kelley's Willie were the most prominent stud dogs in the S.C. Pee Dee area.

Sadly, The Hank dog and Willie dog did not get bred enough. Hank dog dying around four years old and Willie had to be artificially bred. Bass' Tramp Red Boy ( originally AKA Martin's) lived to a ripe old age for dogs. If I remember correctly around 16 years old. Died on Katie's yard. Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CYJ

Hello bossman 311. Is this a mixture of several peoples thoughts on the Red Boy/Cleo line? Some of it looks like some of my first posts on this subject maybe not on this site. But on the on lines pedigree site. Not all of this article, maybe the part on Tar Heel Matt's dogs.

At first those Ta Tonka black and tans did catch my eye. There were some Black and Tan Bull Terrier looking dogs way back in the 1900 era dogs. I later learned that Ta Tonka also raised and sold Rottweiler's. So IMHO, there was a sudden color change in those dogs from the original buckskin colored Bert Sorrels' dogs. Not so sure I would try any of that line today, still just my opinion. That type of Black and Tan mix colors is very odd indeed. I would also shy away from any APBT dog that was merle colored like Great Danes.

Bass' Tramp Red Boy was hard game tested in the middle of the summer. On a, at least ninety to one hundred pound Great Dane/APBT cross. If you had not been told how that catch weight Great Dane /APBT cross was bred. You would have thought it was a large Catch weight APBT. Did not have a Great Dane looking head and it's ears was trimmed to boot.

When I saw Bass' Red Boy and Bass' Cleo chained in the back of Mr. Bass' yard. As I was studying this nice looking brood dog. What jumped in my mind and I asked Mr. Bass the question. Is Cleo a Bert Sorrells' bred dog. Cleo was built a lot like those early Bert Sorrels dogs. Still after seeing a picture of Cotton's Bullet and Bullet having a lot of Corvino blood as well.

Cleo being a black in color. May well have been bred down from Cotton's Bullet. Mr. Mims' told me what dog man Bass bought Cleo from. That he believed Cleo was from Cotton's Bullet breeding. Mr. Mims talks about a lot of stuff real fast and will chat for a good while. I would need the memory of a elephant or able to take all that info down with short hand writing. LOL

My thoughts are that whether through Cotton's Bullet or Bert Sorrells'. When those early breeding's were made with the Red Boy and early Bert Sorrells' bloodlines. Some dog fanciers on the on lines pedigree site. Said some very good dogs were produced.

One person with pad and pen might can solve this Cleo etc. saga. Lives close by, is a personal friend and admirer of Mr. Carl Mims. Might find out the dam pedigree or name of the first or last dam on the two Bullet line breeding's that produced Cleo. If it can be done, sooner than the later would be better. Mr. Mims is getting up in age.

It is possible, Cotton's Bullet may have been dead by the time Bass' Cleo was living. Cleo may be off a son or grand son of Cotton's Bullet. Back in the early 70's when I was visiting Mr. Teal's dog yard behind the Bowman Restaurant. He had two, I assumed were two direct daughters out of Cotton's Bullet. Both were solid black with white in the center of the chest. Both were old dogs.

I never saw all of Mr. Teal's dogs or saw the Cotton's Bullet dog if it was still alive. He owned a large farm as well. Kept more dogs out there in the country. Cheers

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No Sir CYJ , this is a one of a few messages I got From JJY ( Jack Kelly) on pedigrees online dated Tue Feb 05,2013 9:36 am.
If you want I can forward it to you. We went back and forth with a few things.
I have a few more he sent me. I can post here or forward them to you on the pedigrees online's account.
There's one or two @ least where he & another guy I know talked about my dogs & the History of the Sorrells & others.

From: JJY
To: MRHX
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:54 pm
Subject:
Re: Question about a dogs breeding. Quote message
Looks like a great breeding to me. Take time to look at the Lopassay Bullet one or Two dog. Bullet had a strong gene expression on his pups.

Even when R.Carter and F.Jacobs bred some Yellow John breeding to Carter's Blackie dog. Those Assasin dogs still came black with the white marking in the chest. They looked more like Bullet dogs than Red boy dogs. Was a good breeding and was all that really matters in the long run.

Jacob and his brother got busted big time about a year ago this coming spring. Do not know what happen to them or their dogs. Mims does not know either. They were on the local news down this way and even on the internet. Tried to reach J.Spruill but have had no luck. Good luck

Here's whole copy of message Sir.

Inbox :: Message
From: JJY
To: MRHX
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:36 am
Subject:
Re: Question about a dogs breeding. Quote message
Hello that Bert Sorrells/Cleo pedigree was posted by jdoranc. Seems he has only posted a topic on this site but one time. Which was not well received.

Would be nice to know who he actually is and where he got his info. Mr. Carl Mims told me that the Cleo bitch was out of a daughter of Bullet bred back to Bullet. But did not tell me the breeding on the dam side of the first breeding to Bullet. That would be important to know. Then you have the Fancier insisting that the Red Devil breeding in Lopassay's Bouncer is correct.

From my years in the dogs I learned that certain older inbred/line bred bloodlines carried certain traits of color, body build, even the type ears. Even if the pedigrees shown were correct or half correct.

The Basic lines were Colby/Colby-Corvino/Lightner brindles-Lightner Red nose strains. Take a good look at that McGee/Johnson's Apostle dog. This dog carries some of what is called Eli/Dibo breeding etc. The Colby gene is predominant in that dog. Looks just like a Colby dog. My Colby/Dibo Heinzl bred bitch Tina looked a lot like that dog.

The Red Boy line to me showed a lot of that Red Devil/Wilder-Wise-Hemphill Red Nose cross traits and maybe the Sorrels cross. Look more so like those dogs than Bullet bred dogs. Mr. Teal had two older brood bitches on his yard that were directly off Cotton's Bullet. They were mostly black with some white markings in chest. Looked nothing like a Red Boy bred line of dogs.

For as any Bullet breeding never saw a Bullet looking Black- Black/White marked dog on K.Marlowes dog yard. The Bullet bred dogs I ever saw or owned from dogs bred off Lopassay's Bullet/Bullet Two dogs were black or black/White marked dogs.

The only reason I mentioned any of this was seeing that same pedigree posted. Had seen a lot of Red Boy/Cleo bred dogs. They looked nothing like any Bullet dogs I have ever seen.

In this day and time best just deal with the dogs at the end of your chains. The breeding on Red Boy/Bullet/Eli have been argued about since I was in the game back in the 70's. The people that could have corrected the pedigrees are long dead.

If I was to get back into the game. Would start with some male dogs off McGee/Johnson's yard for the male line and hard bite traits. I knew TarHill when he was just getting into the dogs around his early twentys. He has the correct bred dogs that the pedigrees show. He and Ozzie Stevens were friends and TarHill got some good brood bitches from Ozzie.

For some brood bitches would go visit TaTonka Kennels and see what she has. Like those BLK &Tan off colored dogs shown. Shows that Hunter Sam/Tana breeding. Good Corvino blood in that line.

Just some of my opinions is all. You like your dogs you pay the feed bill. Enjoy your dogs. No one ever had a monopoly on the Dog game/Horse racing game/Game Chicken game. Good pulling dogs are where you find them. What is really hard to find is good dog conditioners. Good Luck

This is another one we had.

From: JJY
To: MRHX
Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:45 pm
Subject:
Re: pups Quote message
Thanks very much for the offer. I no longer have any dogs of any kind or even a cat. Was a great time when I was active. Spend a lot of time with Grands and family these days.

Old age and R.A. caught up with me. May try to attend some up coming dog shows close to me later on this year. Will miss one this May in N. C.

Was more curious if any of my blood lines survived. Some of it did and some breeders are looking for it to cross with their dogs.

It was a sad day way back when. When Perry and Stinson's Sampson dog was lost. Hooten's Butcher Boy was lost as well. I always liked the Tudor Red Bill line/ Howard Tobe-Rose etc. that Sampson came out of. This blood line seemed to click and improve any line it was crossed to.

Another is the Ozzie Steven's Virgil line. Would like to see a cross of Mc Gee's Apostle over some of my old stock. Good luck with your dogs

I have a few more not much to talk about .
Just seen him in the gazette & thought would share.

I'm pretty sure JJY is CYJ...he can clear that up tho! :D

S_B

You could be right Sir! LOL! You could be right!

Mr. Mims may be the last link to whatever the most correct version is out there.

I'm not sure he would sit down with pen and paper, if he would it would be historical. Two sentences about Red Boy would turn into South Carolina pulp wood before you could take pen to paper.

I was always told the version from Mr. Mims. HC had dogs straight off Red Boy, Bass bred and then Marlowe bred. I was like 10 years old and we walked dogs for HC. (me and his son, different times, different eras).

HC had some of the early Bullet dogs and they were a large part of his yard. The Red Boy dogs off Cleo could bite, even Cat. Red Boy dogs off a lot of other bitches did not show a lot of mouth. He is where I always heard the saying, "The Red Boy dogs are no more game than any other dog, but they can breathe underwater".

Always a great topic.

EWO

Ditto S_B. I was JJY over on the on lines pedigree site. That was me Boss Man 311. I came over here and used the member name CYJ. You can see over time as my memory became clearer on past events. Some things I might have changed my mind on. I do like those dog's looks and bloodline that Tar Heel Matt and Johnson bred up.

I wanted to breed my Young's Tina bitch to a Lonzo Pratt bred dog named Black Friday that Atlas Brewer had. Was a no go after V. Jackson had won over Atlas several times.

I and my wife did the conditioning and Braddock the owner was the handler of MR. Clean. We had made the match with Atlas and thought our show dog match was with him.

When we got there, were driven around up and down high hills for over a hour, which made our dog car sick. We finally get to the show ring. Too find Mr. Pratt in the other corner with a fresh well conditioned dog.

Braddock's Mr. Clean was not named that for it's all white/red nose/yellow eyes. Even driven four hours and made car sick. Braddock's Mr. Clean still showed Mr. Pratt and Atlas how the west was won. LOL Cheers.

P.S. Braddock's Mr. Cleans pedigree is on this site. Mr. Cleans' Dam was bred out of Cotton's Bullet.

One member on here wrote a article on his thoughts of breeding certain types of dogs. I certainly agree with most of what he says. Katie Marlowe told me that Bass' Tramp Red Boy's dam, Mc'Cleod's Susie Que Gal. Would let the chickens eat with it out of the feed pan. Was a docile type dog. Maybe even a cold dog.

I never saw Susie Que Gal or got too met Mr. Mc'Cleod. Never heard of Mr. Mc'cleod doing anything with dogs. Except selling puppies through the local news paper. He may have passed on by the time I had gotten into the game.

From the looks of Red Boy, IMHO, I feel there was a strong Corvino gene pool in Bass' Red Boy. Red Boy looked a lot like Corvino's Shorty and the Ross' Red Devil stud dog. Corvino's dogs were not noted for being hard biters but known for deep gaminess. Cheers

Do a test breeding to Mc'Cleod's Susie Que Gal with Teal's Tip dog. Do a 14 generation search. Just start scrolling down. You will see the good Colby blood. You will also see a lot of Red dogs of Lightner etc. Will see a lot of Corvino's Shorty over and over. IMHO I feel the Corvino genes and the Lightner genes expressed themselves the most in Bass' Tramp Red Boy.

From what I saw Bass' Tramp Red Boy go through. I do believe Red Boy was a very deep to a dead game dog and lived. Cheers

OH OK! That I was talking to someone else CYJ.

Ditto bossman 311. I wrote a article on this site about the Tramp Red Boy dog. Title may be Bass' (Martin's ) Red Boy. The Red Boy dog was first owned by Wilbur Martin who also lived in Dillon S.C. I visited and talked with him over the years back then. He sold Red Boy to Bass. No longer sure how old Red Boy was before sold. Wilbur did breed Red Boy to some of his Loposay Colby/Loposay Bullet II females. Martin had some of that Carver's (Loposay's) Tiger Jack dogs as well.

I owned and gave a great little black/white bitch named Liz to my brother. Liz was sired by Red Boy x one of Wilbur's Bullet bred females. Saw this little Liz bitch rolled on a big bitch dog and was beat down and appeared dead. Was able to be revived, and once seeing the bigger roll dog. Scratched right back into that big rough dog and took a solid holt. Now I did not approve of doing that. Was not my dog though.

Liz full brother was owned by Rowell and proved to be a hard biting dead game dog. EWO knows a whole lot more about those Red Boy x Loposay Bullet dogs than I do. The ones I saw had a good mouth and were deep game. Liz had a gimp back leg and could not be properly conditioned. My brother raised one litter off Liz, but no longer know where or what happened to the off spring. Cheers

I would defer to CYJ based on his knowledge and most of all his first hand experience. I think now the foremost expert now would be Mr. Mims. He has the first hand knowledge from years ago and then 30-40 years of breeding the strain. I'm not in either of those ballparks.

As a young kid I petted a couple off Red Boy. The first did not have a lot of mouth but he had one gear and it was all out. As some would say, he could breathe under water and he was coming all night. It seems like they killed him three or four times but as it was also said, there must have been three or four hairs on the tip of his tail still alive and that is all a Red Boy dog needs to make scratch.

I have heard it both ways from way back then but the other was a male that was either a litter mate to Yellow John or a repeat breeding. No idea which way. This one was called JR. He had pretty good mouth but not enough to write home about. He too had all night desire and not only knocked on death's door he kicked it and walked right in. It was said, 'he will die for your money'.

How Red Boy was bred and how Red Boy came about has been more lore than fact since the 80's. From the 80's on the number of people with first hand knowledge dwindled. That number now is maybe less than a handful and I am not one of the handful.

The guy that turned me onto the dogs was a funny guy and he was known to shoot curves. A good guy in the dogs but he could sure tell a story. His mom once told us that he would rather stand on top of a telephone pole on one foot in the high wind and tell a lie just so he did not have to stand on the ground to tell the truth. That was from his own mom.

He would tell us how Red Boy was bred. Then one of the Red Boy dogs would show a lot of mouth and he would say that is that Bullet blood I told you about. The next time a puppy would be born and there would be some white or brindle and he would say there is that Colby blood I told you about. Then a heavy red boy breeding would throw a black dog and he would say I told you those son of a bitches lied about how he was bred.

It was like Red Boy was bred differently every time one of his offspring showed a different trait.

Those days seem like a hundred years ago.

EWO