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Not taking anything away from the hound, he's an outstanding producer. I have even..... well my dad had offspring that had some haymaker blood back in the day that either came directly off him or had him in 2nd and 3rd gen. They were damn good, but why I'm here, well back then I didn't know anything about bloodlines I just knew the names well now that I'm back and picking up were my pops left off, been trying to do a lot of homework, so my question is..... DID HAYMAKER REALLY QUIT?
Check pm
Did he??
This is from another site:
you and i both know haymaker quit in 12 on a smaller dog 4 months after his last hard check with a half ass one! i seen with my own eyes and you know it! your exact words were "so i'll just keep him and see what he throws. he's bred to good to shoot"! and if im wrong why is the only scar on haymaker on his hind legs? we both know why dont we ronnie? i did not think a dog could scream so loud did you? no matter how he is bred he needs to be put down. quit robbing folks on the red boy name! bull**** buster. you know who i am now dont you ronnie? you forgetful pill popping old bastard! buyers beware this guy wont rembember you 5mins after your gone and will try and push off everything on you while your there, it's funny he charges so much and lives like a bum.lol shoot haymaker! to who ever did put this board up , if you got one off haymaker you aint checked it hard yet!!!! if you did you would have put up a why buy haymaker board instead! go check your 2000.dollar haymaker dog for real. i bet it aint worth 20.
No correlation between quitting and throwing game dogs.
Breeding game dogs mostly gives us the warm fuzzies.
EWO
A post like that is what makes dog people look like trash.
After fifty siblings later. Pretty well a mute point. LOL Most of the heavy Dibo strains have quitting dogs in the background.. The Boudreaux's Scrub dog's picture shows it standing on the line taking the count.
I still am a big Fan of those Texas Tea Dibo strains of dogs. To me these dogs are like that 80's song, (Crack that Whip, Break your momma's Back, Now Crack it.). What those Dibo dogs do to other game strains of dogs, if they can not survive that hour to hour and half mark. LOL.
Now I do not believe in breeding a dog that quits especially on top winning. Still it is a pipe dream to believe all the dogs of today that have a sixteen generation papers. That all of it's ancestors were deep game to dead game dogs. Just being merrily foolish to believe that. So I reckon we will have to give ole Holland's Haymaker a pass. At least it is a nice looking well built dog. Cheers
Yes well I don't have a dog in this but I understand why ol boy called him out. I've seen way too many people just breed cur and the new buyer thinks he's got the next big one to find out he's out of a 5 min cur. Its not right to do folks that way. If your goi g to sell a pup as off of a good one sell pups off good ones regardless of how many red letters he has on a computer ped.
Very true. But half these dogs are sold based on 'guts on the floor and blood on the ceiling' war stories. The red and blue pedigree print is one more tool that was meant to be used on a positive way but gets flip flopped if it serves a purpose.
If Haymaker quit yesterday and was being bred today then tomorrow's puppy purchaser is getting screwed. No doubts. But since Haymaker was bred a number of years ago and there are several generations between him and puppies being sold today it really does not factor in at all whether he quit or not. It immediately jumps to whether the dogs he produced in turn produces game dogs. Performance and production have no link other than we get the warm fuzzies breeding game dogs. Granted stacking game dog on top of game dog increases the odds of more game dogs and even that is not an absolute.
If Haymaker did or did not indeed quit then so be it. He has some offspring/grandkids that have went out there and did it, mostly as crosses but did it the same.
The better question would be how around that time how those dogs became thick hided, rough and durable and could bite shit in just about half. If I were going to use the Holland strain of Red Boy I would want to breed toward those dogs understanding I had an unknown variable vs. wondering whether Haymaker quit or not.
The Banks Heatmaker dog is throwing dogs with real clamp. His offspring in turn are doing the same. A number of years back I never remembered anyone saying those Holland dogs could really shut it down....then all of a sudden CLAMP.
If he quit, he quit. So be it. If there were a true way to identify gamedogs in every pedigree there would be an awful lot of hurt feelings.
EWO
I agree.. I'm from the school of the only dead game dogs are dead and they would have stopped if the condition was right. The right time they All will stop or be made to stop.. You don't think so keep hunting that Champion"Dead Game dog " every day for 45 min. On day 5 or 6 you'll see.. They are All just as good as the shape there body will let them be in. But that's all another story! What I'm saying is Folks are still doing the SAME thing Every day Right now. And some times is rubs the wrong one side ways. If. You sell dogs as off Good solid Checked bull dogs. Then sell off of good solid Checked dogs. Because it all comes out even 15 years later!
I've got old sdj from 1980 on even have a bunch of old peat sparkes mags I found in his attic when I was helping clean up his old home place. I promise you Folks that was full of Shit still got called out! And they should f_(€ing crooks..
Boston Blacky came down to J. Spruill place, to breed his Gr Ch Daisy Mae to Spruill's GR CH Jack. Said he wanted to breed Gr CH To GR CH. I have not been able to contact Spruill. For as I know, either the Daisy Mae bitch did not catch. Or the pups got papered another way or the breeding was a flop.
I have seen the best to the best bred and it was a flop. Jones bred some of James Crenshaw's cur stock and got some dogs good as Crenshaw had. Was what Crenshaw told me and V.J.
Reading one of those recent breeding articles on our site. Was mentioned a cold dog should be put down as well. That would have gotten rid of Patrick's Tombstone's sibling sister, that produced some excellent dogs. Would be no Tudor's Dibo strain of dogs. No Jocko-Red Boy dogs as the Jackson's Hank dog was cold till moved to my yard and Howle's yard. Dog fired up at around three years old and was a monster in the show ring.
IMHO, I believe what is the biggest breeding problem today since the late 60's. Is to much emphasize and Glory is put on the Super Stud dog male line and ignoring the Bitch line. The really old timers believed you preserved the game gene through the bitch dogs.
Trying to buy up a bunch of puppies to start a dog yard is very expensive, and time consuming. Like ATKJJJ has said. A dog breeder that is dishonest. Has already put you behind the eight ball. Such a breeder that comes to mind was ole Max Coats (Alias Jamie Long). LOL
If I was to get back in the dog game. You would be surprised where I would go to get a good solid brood bitch to start again with. Both are members on here. One cannot get signed back on after his lap top crashed. One lives near the Virginia/N.C. line and the other in S.C. Now for the super bite/ruggedness, tough hide, foul traits etc. on the male side. Probably to Texas. LOL
To Texas I agree.
And Max Coats/Jami Long was an excellent listener. Once he identified what you were looking for he just so happened to have it right out back. A close friend of mine who ignored all the advice we could give spent a chunk of money with MC/JL. Every dog he bought fit the bill that the one before did not.
If a guy is new to the dogs and/or new to a family of dogs breeding cold dogs is not such a good idea. Just not enough experience with the family. On the other hand if a person has raised 5/6 generations off the same dogs/same family of dogs then breeding a cold dog can be a viable option.
If only game dogs were bred there would not be a lot of dogs out there. It takes all kinds.
EWO
Breeding cold dogs does in fact turn out more cold dogs. Cur dogs is different as what is identified as a cur is very subjective. it's so hard to diagnose why a dog actually stopped, most do not want to deal with the thinking part of it or the scrutiny that may come with it. Plenty of deep game dogs hang it up on the behalf of their owners fuck ups and then said owner is amazed to find out that the pups off that cur were deep game in another man's hands. Huge grey area there. Cold dogs... not so much. I've bred a cold bitch, she was also off a cold bitch... not hard to guess what those pups were like even when the sire is clean of cold dogs for at least 6 gen. You can probably guess what lines she is down from as well... because they are known to throw cold bitches and them cold bitches have also thrown some bad SOB's. But this ties sort of into my other post on working your dogs for dock diving, bite work, etc. you will always reap what you sow! The environment has a profound impact on the dogs. Genes constantly firing on and off, expression and dormancy. It is really not a coincidence that so many cold bitches come from the Hollingsworth tree, because he didn't look at his females. they will produce nice dogs, they have a shit ton of nice dogs stacked in with those cold bitches. But follow the genealogy and know that the little decisions you make can have great impact down the road. Even the slightest environmental change can have great impact if it continues for generations.
Black Hand very well said, and I couldn't agree more.
S_B
Agreed. Then not so much.
I'm not a Hollingsworth fancier so I can't comment on them as far as cold dog producers.
I will agree if a cold bitch from a cold bitch is bred, the chances, and likelihood, of cold bitches would increase. On the other hand if a cold bitch pops up and the majority of her brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, and parents and grandparents were bulldogs then the odds of her throwing more cold dogs go down.
That is where the experience comes in with an entire family of dogs of the same strain. If I had bred 5-6-7 generations of those Hollingsworth dogs and had success a high percentage of the time I can make a better decision about a cold dog.
If I go out and buy my first bull dog, or even my first Hollingsworth dog, and she turns out cold I am on a slippery slope if I breed her.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=48127
This dog is going on 4. He is cold. In my younger years he would have been culled at 2. He had a ~cousin bred similar from the same dogs who did not turn on to well after three, close to four and then won four by the time he was 5 1/2. Skull threw some good dogs along the way as well. I have given Sluggo that same chance.
He will get one more bump to start and if he shows no interest I will give him away.
The bottom side has Ruby a deep game winning bitch with a lot of finish. Out of Bobby, one of those thick hided, durable and hard mouthed Holland dogs and Ramera a deep game bitch that scratched after having her shoulder socket exposed (GBK Sugarfoot 2XW). Never walked the same. Her top side is out of a Boo who proved to be a match dog and in turn produced match dogs. Mick was a deep game dog who threw game dogs. We owned a lot of dogs out of Rainbow dogs never seen one quit,Backed up by Jiggs who threw rough and solid mouth Red Boy dogs.
I'm waiting on Sluggo. I have thought about breeding him as he is a good looking dog, well bred, yet cold. The only reason that I will not breed to him is that the only experience I have with the Holland strain is what I have seen in Ruby and Bobby. Bobby had a sister who I heard was a fair dog and another sister who made one half hearted scratch and the GAME box was checked in order to get to the brood pen. Not enough personal experience which is more variable than I am comfortable with when breeding.
If I had a lot of Holland experiences, seen a lot of Holland dogs, and felt comfortable the hard mouth, thick hided, durable dogs were indeed straight Holland dogs I would be inclined to breed to Sluggo. Based on all involved. Since that is not the case I do not I have enough information to breed to him. But if I did......
With all that said I am not a breeder. I always left breeding to the people who were willing to put their product out there. What little I breed stays at my house, or within striking distance. I only breed bitches when there are chain spaces available. The cold dog to hot dog opinion, is just that, opinion.
EWO
EWO I'm not sure I understand why you're hung up on the Holland blood as a decision maker on this particular dog. Especially being the fact that particular strain is basically Mr. Bulldog x Brandy Girl just like the Mims' Dopey/Jiggs stuff. If you're familiar with those dogs being late starters this strain shouldn't change things much. Now me personally I'd be looking at the Chinabuck portion of that ped to ask those questions. Especially since it's concentrated on Chinaman who didn't crank until 4.
We each have our own methods to breeding/using certain dogs and I respect that. I just personally wouldn't use any dog lacking the very trait that I was looking for unless they were the last of the mohicans and there was no other choice to preserve a particular line.
S_B
Agreed.
My point is that I believe the Dopey/Jiggs stuff to be correct and they throw the same. I have a female out there that might as well be Brandy Girl herself.
On the Holland side there is much speculation that those particular Holland dogs in the pedigree are not down from Dopey/Brandy.
As far as Ramera and her lineage. Low percentage dogs down from the Snooty/Molly Bee/Chinabuck type dogs. Granted they could all bite but percentages were low. The kicker is that when you had one that would stay you could ride up and down the road with anyone. The ones that were game threw low percentages as well. This factors as well.
This factors as well. If he were an easy keeper, laid back, slow on the chain Snooty/Molly Bee/Chinabuck type dog, like the others I have owned, I would have pulled the plug earlier because it would be cold but leaning toward the lower percentage strain.
But since he is more Red Boy like and a lot like Skull I have decided to wait. Maybe his fourth birthday will be a magic pill.
I was mostly using him as an example as there is a difference between cold and simply choosing not to know at all.
EWO
There are basically two types of Curs. First type is in the schooling faze and the schooling is properly done. The dog is hot and mad to have dog contact. Once given the chance and things start to get rough. It starts wanting out of the situation and when the pressure is off this type dog. It shows great relief and will stand the line.
The worst of the worst type cur is the one that is in top shape and makes it to a show. IMHO is why I believe one should never put up a large Show ring fee on the first get go. No matter how well a show dog shows out in it's schooling.
This type Cur stays mostly top dog or even. Needing too make one more scratch or two to win, stands the line. IMHO both types should be discarded and never given away to a newbie in the game. These are those dogs in a lot of our pedigrees from the past that can come back to haunt us when the stakes are high.
Now I do not advocate just breeding every cold dog. But there are those situations where one that has a lot of experience with their own family of dogs can do so. There are many variables. Certain strains of these dogs mature slower than other strains. One defiantly is dogs heavily bred around those Tudor Dibo strain of dogs.
Some times the better female siblings of a female cold dog will not raise puppies or produce a bunch of high strung nut cases. The other is being the last living sibling of a great breeding. One last thing if a cold dog is used at least one time to see how it produces. That dog should be very well built with no bad psychical traits. Still a cold dog should only be used as a last resort.
IMHO opinion the best breeding's are the ones that produced a high percentage of game dogs hopefully with great ability. Many times I have seen this done. Yet that breeding is never repeated much as possible. Instead it's off to the next hottest stud dog on the market. By the time most of this is figured out. The original dogs are dead or to old to breed or the breeder has gotten discourage and quit the game. Sounds like a big ole Minnie Me. LOL Cheers
Hey, the way things are today. Cold dogs or quitting dogs being bred would be the least of my worries.
The over all best way to operate. Is too work at being a top show dog conditioner. Keep up with the shows, the newbies and small dog yards like Mr. Maurice Carver did.
Find the type dog you like, you then can stay under the radar. Able to deal with one dog and give it all the attention it needs. When the Dog Show is over, generally the winning dogs and the top conditioners are the ones ever remembered. Cheers
Agreed. I'm not a breeder so these are just my opinions on what I have seen from other breeders.
I can't breed to a cold dog because I do not have the space to wait and see how things turn out. I have often debated waiting on Sluggo.
On the flip side I can see where someone with a ton of experience within a family of tight bred dogs could use a cold bitch from within that family.
I think my biggest shortcoming when it comes to the dogs is measuring gameness. I like all the terms, deep game, pit game, dead game, etc. etc. The one that always factored in my decision making process was 'game enough'. I measured the qualities I was looking for in a bulldog gave them a rating and if they rated high enough we found a cheap one to get them out on the playing field.
What I have also seen is a ton of mouth or top notch conditioning hide the cur for a number of gatherings. I'm thinking at some point they used the 'game enough' rating system as well.
It is a slippery slope. A lot of programs are centered on game dogs and preserving the gameness of the breed. Some are simply concerned with having enough dog to win.
Sometimes the two coincide sometimes they are completely separate from one another.
EWO
Ok EWO, makes more sense that you explained it and he acts more like the RB side of his ped. I don't see anything wrong with waiting on a dog. If you have a time line of past dogs you should at least give him the same opportunity, especially if you have the room and he's not hard to keep.
He's bred freggin awesome, maybe he'll turn on and kick the world's ass! :D
S_B
CYJ, always a pleasure to read what you post.
S_B
Even though we've gone far beyond Haymaker, this turned out to be a great thread! :-bd
For those that have had a dog turn on in their later years (3+), what do you think flipped the switch? The dog has already been an adult for some time at that point. I would think its maturation process would be complete. Any thoughts?
Great threads, like good conversation, often change directions. This one the same.
I'm not much on just having an opinion on these dogs. My opinions are usually, and most often, based on dogs that I have actually owned or seen or had personally experienced.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=8836
This female has been grown since about 10-12 weeks old. Just ask her. Sweet as pie. As friendly and warm hearted to people as any dog I have ever seen. Since 10-12 weeks old she will grab anything of any size with four legs and fur. And be mad about it as well. Separate her from the dog and in an instant she returns to the cute and cuddle little puppy. Fast forward as she is just over a year now. Exact same thing. I think she would be the perfect house dog. Her switch does not flip until something is within her grasp. A complete sociopath.
Sluggo on the other had has a pedigree and family members that suggest he should be chomping at the bit for a shot at the title. Zero interest. Period.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=48129
Molly has been hot from way early and puts on a demonstrative display whenever there is dog movement on the yard. Take another off the chain, spend two minutes with another dog horsing around or simply rub the dog next to her. She turned on really early as well. She has issues with other people as well. Nothing but a loving dog to me but even my son she does not like.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=47590
Hatchet and his littermate sister had to be separated early. I blamed him as the aggressor until she just picked another target in the pen. She was a real aggressive puppy. And when separated would stay mad and geeked up for several minutes afterwards. Star acted ready really early. Hatchet was more like a normal dog. 18-20 months before he got going.
In the end it depends on the individual dog. Sometimes there is stark differences between littermates. Most of the time when they 'turn on' or 'act ready' really early, in reality they are not. Sort of like the young teenage kid who already knows everything and thinks he can whoop the world. The world usually wins. Same with the dogs.
It is hard enough to wait on a dog that is slow to start. It is really hard to have patience when the youngster is chomping at the bit. This has been the end to many who would have ended up being a good dog, or the very least having a plausible chance of being a good dog.
EWO
Not much on opinion without experience.......
EWO
Look I'm going to let everyone on a secret. Its individual Dogs that Produce! Not so much just perfect bred dogs.
I have had and seen it way too often. Hell I got a male here that can breed to a cold -cur -or Game bitch and you got a real shot at a real dog. Don't think just because a ped is pretty or you went to some breeder that has 7 gens of GrCh ped lined up for you. Some dogs just produce good. Hell one of the best producing bredings I ever seen was off of TKK's. Tina Louise when she was bred to monster man. And I hate palidin dogs. But them two put out stone cold game ass bulldogs. Or Clayhills miss rage (cold or cur) and that sorry ass shaliko dog. Hell that was 6 pups = 5 Champion and GrChampion and I got the SDJ to prove it ( for those that don't think it didn't happen unless it was in the sdj (2003)
So all these theories are fine and dandy but its all just talking points.
The bull Shit stops when they drop in the box...
It's both.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATKJJJ
What is behind the individual and the individual itself. Selection. The longer the generations spent of you selecting the dogs you like, the more likely the individuals born will have and produce those traits. No secrets to it. Keep them, select the best dogs.
Agreed with the box scenario. No doubts there.
It is the individual dog but the purpose of a breeding program is to stack those individual dogs together, within the same family and with the same desired traits.
EWO
Yes but you can have litter mates and one just produces good solid game dogs every time. And his Brother or sister can't hit a lick. Same ped same blood line. This game ain't as easy as stacking bloodlines and peds. Its more about time and knowing the dogs in the fam personally. I wish it was as easy as breeding pretty dog with pretty less. I would have been a rich man in life.
Same here.
I think we said the same thing. Same flavor, different labels.
Time and knowing the dogs in the family. That is selection. If you bred a dog for a certain reason and you see that certain reason in his offspring that is the dog you are going with.
Does that mean he is the producer and his brother is not? Nope, not in the least. But we base that selection on personal knowledge.
The kicker is that his cur brother or sister that was culled may have been the producer all along.
I'm no breeder but the Mountain Man told us once as soon as guy tells you he knows how to breed dogs to get dogs, RUN!.
You do the best you can with what you have, select, and go from there.
And if it were easy tons of people would be making tons of money. But even then someone has to be proofing these dogs.
EWO
Ditto EWO on the top conditioner being able too hide the cur. A super rough cur that is put in top shape and shown against a dog man of inferior conditioning methods, even having a great dog. Will generally lose every time. Until a newbie gets to see all the variables of the game. Opinions of gaminess is all over the place.
I have seen some considered deep game dogs go up to two hours or more. Maybe up to thirty scratches back and forth. I can tell you except for the betters involved. It starts out exciting, then can get real boring fast.
Then that same deep game winning dog later runs into a super aggressive and powerful dog. Get's piled into a corner, unable to work itself out of a bad situation. Either quits or has to be picked up.
IMHO, I feel there has always been two classes of these type dogs. With both types having very few deep game dogs under various show conditions. IMHO, if you got the monster show dog, show it in the cold weather season. This type dog put in top shape, has a much better chance of winning. These type dogs can wear themselves out by the ninety minute mark.
One has the big boned deep game acting dog. Without a lot of the Monster dog's attributes. Bring this type dog out in the middle of Summer and hope they bring that monster. Remember how Don Mayfield played that game with Tombstone X Bullyson. I believe it was Earl Tudor that said a match well made is a match well won.
The conclusion of all of this. It always boils down to a couple of things. The dog conditioner always wants to win and the dog breeder always wants to sell the dogs. One has to decide which one they want to be. To be able to pull it all off is quite a feat indeed. My Hat off to you. Especially in these days and times. Hey, good dog food per pound, costs about as much as a nice steak per pound today. LOL Cheers
Very true.
There have been a bunch of game dogs that were losing dogs due to conditioning and talent on the other side. There is nothing wrong with being a losing game dog. What happens most of the time is that they are left down hoping against hope that the other dog quits on top or there is some sort of miracle come back. Lots of really game dogs lost this way.
Agreed it is a line in the sand between working dogs and selling puppies. There is also nothing wrong with selling puppies it is the pitch that makes the difference. Selling puppies off the sweat of another man's brow coupled with fake war stories is peddling. Peddling has been the Achilles heel to all working breeds, not bulldogs only.
I can remember when the harshest insult that could be made about some one was, "Oh, he is just selling puppies". That was the worst. You could call him every name under the sun, everything fell short.
Also agree on a 'match well made'. Giving your own dog an honest evaluation can be tough at times. There is a lot of kennel blindness in performance dogs. Sometimes it does not allow a person's dogs to get better and at other times it leads them into the wrong place at the wrong time. Most people wait to the cold weather as it gives leniency to being off in the keep. Those summer time dogs and summer time camps can be a sight to behold. That cold weather monster might be a summer time bum.
The times have changed as well. It is different time now. Privacy is just a word now, no real meaning to the masses. I can remember when the neighbor could come borrow a cup of sugar and you did not have to worry about him running to tell what he saw. Those days a re pretty much gone.
Sorry for getting off track with the Haymaker thread. Great posts/topics often change directions.
To the original poster, my apologies. I would not really worry about whether Haymaker did or did not quit. BY now it really does not matter. He has produced some dogs and in turn produced dogs that produced dogs. I hit you up with a really good strain down out of him. Solid dogs. Solid camp.
EWO
Pretty much it. I'd say probably every dog has some dust in the corner if you look hard enough. And they is a big difference between production and battle record.
Good dogs are where they are. But now a days folks don't look at what's under the hood they look at a ped. Half assed pre school him and expect him to be a Ch and when he fails they get another bloodline to run down.
The dogs are only as good as the man or woman behind them. You want good dogs look at how the dogs LOOK you are buying. Not just the ped..
Seeing is believing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATKJJJ
S_B
Round and round we go.. It's a never ending story who-what-where-when-how.. It all boils down to the end user and if in fact they using them.. 80% chance they are nothing more than coffee table dog men.. Sitting around the coffee table talking about the grandparents and great grandparents of there newly acquired shit eater.