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What are your thoughts on sporting dog events such as wall climbs, high jump (springpole), weight pull, etc.?
I personally think is a good thing. We can showcase the amazing abilites of the breed in a legal way. However, I have mixed feelings when the breeding program is centered around this. They tend to forget about gameness and breed more for extreme drive and mouth.
I have no issues with it and really no issues changing the direction of their program.
In any sporting event the object is to win. If a guy has to breed in a certain direction to win in a particular event then that is no different than a game dog guy breeding for gameness.
Tons of game dog guys have bred to freaks or aces, and better yet bought puppies off of freaks and aces, who never displayed gameness based on physical skill.
All in attempts of winning down the road.
I think it is a great thing. I go with responsible ownership first and foremost, regardless of the endeavors, and whatever can fit under the responsible ownership umbrella, then so be it.
I'm a fan of any dog that will do what he was bred to do or what he was trained to do.
EWO
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip11
Most definitely a good thing.
I think it's great and I don't care if people breed these dogs for other activities. As long as it's not human aggression. Those of us who care will always find the real game dogs. At some point we may have to separate the idea of a gamedog and the APBT. Doesn't matter. Game dogs will always be game dogs and APBTs will be whatever APBT people want them to be.
That's a good way of putting it IWK. I enjoy going out to the local show to support the breed and the club. It's relaxing to see a well conditioned APBT. I think it's a good thing for the show breeders to have the dogs in that kind of spot light. Show a more positive side to them.
Agreed. I do not have a problem with bite work. It too would fall under the umbrella of responsible ownership.
I met a guy once who had dogs down out of Snooty and Pool Hall Red that most would drool on the pedigree. They were all trained bite dogs who performed in French Ring, Mondio and Pro Sport work. They were very good at what they were trained to do. I thought it was a beautiful sight to watch.
But everyone has their opinion. I know a lot of guys who are anti-bite work the with the APBT. I can see the point but at the same time I think there is a mile of difference between human aggression and trained bite work.
Good topic.
EWO
With ya 100%. The more people do that is positive with these dogs, the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misfit
Ya I'm totally fine with bite work. I think it looks like a lot of fun, actually. I just don't want them bred for HA.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
I'm totally fine with bite work too. I'm OK training the APBT for protection sports (French Ring, IPO, etc.) however I'm not OK with training the APBT for real protection work (not sport). With real protection work I think you can easily start to breed them for HA since they're job is to be a man stopper.
"In any sporting event the object is to win. If a guy has to breed in a certain direction to win in a particular event then that is no different than a game dog guy breeding for gameness.
Tons of game dog guys have bred to freaks or aces, and better yet bought puppies off of freaks and aces, who never displayed gameness based on physical skill."
That's true.
I wouldn't give a dog to someone who was going to use it for any of those things unless they neutered it... bite work included. There is something else besides selection that changes the direction of a family and that's environmental impact. Gene regulation plays a big role in what is being expressed and aids the changes we see in something like apbt>amstaff. While it's easy to say that the amstaff took a turn because they had no idea if they were selecting the best or worst pup of each litter... eventually from not looking at them there would be no best in the litter. Like the term "use it or lose it". I think the same could be said about bite work. Enticing the animal to bite people will naturally make for a more HA dog inheritedly just from actively participating in it. Not really something I would want with my dogs. But if others like it, go about it. Bad news for our already bad news dogs.
@Black Hand: I do agree with the HA if it's real protection work (biting a person). But if it's sport (biting a guy in a suit or a sleeve), it has nothing to do with HA. The dogs know it's a game and will not bite a guy without a suit or sleeve.
I wouldn't be concerned with the individual and what the dog is trained to do but more so the impact and effect it would have on later generations of dogs when you are working them that way. Changes are taking place that the eye cannot see.
I would not see it as that big of a deal. I can't see the game dog guy going to the bite work guy and asking to breed to his dog. Maybe the other way around.
There is a weight pull guy near here that has one of the better bred Mims Red Boy dogs out there. 3/4, maybe 7/8th's Red Boy from dogs that throw all nite game dogs. When he sees a lack of drive or a lack of desire to work the Red Boy dog is infused into the next breeding.
I would have loved to have bred to the Red Boy male but I would not have bred to one of those sons in order to get at the Mims male.
The guy that runs the detection unit at Atlanta's international airport also works both personal protection and sport dogs. He has all kinds. He had two that would make a Snooty/Pool Hall Red fan stand up on their head.
I could see the point of neutering before hand but not many sport/performance people will buy a dog that has been neutered/spayed unless the intend for it ti be a pet from the go.
Great topic as it takes all kinds.
EWO