Bulldogs and Terriers

Do you think there is any terrier blood in the APBT? Stratton maintains that they're all bulldog with no terrier blood crossed into it. However I think there are strains that have terrier blood in them. If you look at Colby's Galtie, you can see he has some terrier in him. How about those 25l bs bulldogs? If we go by the 19th century painting, a lot of them show bigger bulldogs depicted not smaller ones.

Now look at terriers such as Patterdales and Jagd. I would argue they're as game as they come. These little dogs are like miniatures pit bulls. What are your thoughts on this?

Hello Skip11. The older standard of a perfect built American Pit Bull (Terrier) not a Bulldog. Can be seen on the cover's of the My Friend and Yours dog magazine. That was published years back by Pete Sparks. Some Pit Bull dog historians believe what we call the American Pit Bull Terrier is one and same breed of dog of yesterday called a English Bulldog or Bulldogge etc.

IMHO do not agree totally with that approach. A article and pictures back in the 70's of a breeder of dogs we call today the American Bulldog. Was in one of Ralph Greenwood's ADBA Gazette magazines. This person lived in Georgia and claimed his family had these dogs from before the Civil war. Said the first original dogs were shipped from England. These original dogs were very nice looking with mixed colors of white and brindle etc. IMHO, were better built Mastiff type looking dogs without the excessive head and lips of the Mastiff. He claimed these dogs were the original English Bulldog.

If you can find some pictures of his original dogs. You can see how the show dog people's new standard. Has changed the over all looks of the original dogs to worse and not better. It appears most show type breeders of this breed of dogs today. Prefer the white ones over the mixed colored ones if the mix colored ones exist today.

We should strive to breed more to a Pit Bull Terrier standard and not to a so called Bulldog standard. I know this is hard due to the fact that gaminess and serious pulling traits come first before just looks. Still, better put together dogs toward a more Bull Terrier standard like the Pete Sparks dog, IMHO is the better type build than a more Bulldog/Mastiff type build.

Myself in the last years used a good amount of the Bully Son x Carver crosses. I got into much bigger dogs over night. Was the same for those using the Williams' Paladin x Red Boy and Jocko X Red Boy. Some of these dogs were up to seventy and eighty pounds on the chain. These bigger dogs become more what we call having a Bulldog look with the longer heavier type bodies. Some of the Bully Son dogs being one and a half dogs long and one half dog high,heavy muscled and big boned.

So today, it appears if you can keep your stock in the forty pound and smaller mid thirty pound range. You get more Bull Terrier type looking dogs with the rat tails and tight seal skin, etc. Having a more active agility weasel type movements, most terriers are noted for.

The big catch weight dogs in the upper fifties and sixties tend to be more Bulldog type looking with bigger and longer tails and sometimes a rougher coat. lacking sometimes the nice seal skin of the smaller dogs.

There is today another breed of dog called a Bully Pit or something to that effect. Seems to be a blend of the American Bulldog x American Staff and American Pit Bull. As one can see these dogs are defiantly not the same type dogs we have. LOL

This should create some good discussion. Since many believe our dogs originated from a English Bulldog x English type Terrier which well my be true. Cheers

Thanks for the info CYJ, definitely some stuff I've never heard before. I firmly believe that the gamebred APBTs today are not "pure" bulldog but there is terrier blood in there.

If one had the time and money. Could breed a well built deep game male Patterdale Terrier to a female American Bulldog. See what sort of dogs are produced. Reasons for a male Patterdale over a female American Bulldog. Is a female Patterdale dog may not be able to carry and birth the pups.

This might could be the beginning of a new breed of varmint and catch dogs. Would be something if one showed up at one of our dog pulling contest. Whupped our breed of dogs. LOL

I had many years back seen two pretty darn game English x Pit crossed dogs in the show ring. A American Bulldog crossed to a deep game Patterdale might be a Holy Terror. LOL I can hear some of you fellows now. Saying Oh Yeah, what is the weight and bring it on my man. LOL Cheers

I have read some old articles and seen 15th and 16th century tapestries. That show some dogs along with hunting hounds. That look just like our dogs today. In one of these articles, the writer felt that these particular breed of dogs. That we today call a American Pit Bull Terrier is a ancient breed maybe old as the Bloodhound and Greyhound.

On the ironic side of all this. I watched a romantic murder thriller with my wife today. The TV movie special was titled " The Making of a Lady". This movie was set in the late to early Elisabeth era on a huge land estate with the large many roomed four story house etc. What kept catching my eye was a statue of a protective brood bitch with nursing pups. This statue was in the center of the main drive way. This dog looked just like many of our dogs today. Cheers

There are few breeds today that have been kept since pre-industrial revolution era. The bloodhound and the greyhound were mentioned above. To the common person, breed type and standard for breed was not a thought until mid 1800's and was predominantly exclusive to the upperclass (like the greyhound and their coursing clubs). Common class people who mainly kept these type of working terriers and bulldogs had a type more than a breed. If it was the type to do the job then it was the type to be bred as a lot of these folks had to make due with what they had locally. The american pitbull terrier would come to fruition as these commoners would come to the new world and bring their local working type dogs with them. Who's to say what these folks had in their dogs some generations back... the folks from Ireland probably didn't have the same background as the folks from England and the Blend of the two would create the dogs we have today.

Ditto Black Hand. Believe you have pretty well nailed it on the head. Many a great breed of working type dogs of the past. Has been ruined by show dog type standards to a large degree. Preferring looks over true functionality.

If any of you have the book on the original English Bull Terrier or seen some of the older breed of English Bull Terriers of India. You can quickly see the newer standard of the modern English and American bred English Bull Terrier are very dissimilar.

Two other breeds are the German Shepard and the Doberman Pincher. The original Doberman Pincher was a big boned powerful dog that ranged up to a hundred or so pounds. The original German Shepard was much larger, bigger boned and did not suffer from hip dysplasia. That is so common with the American breed of the German Shepard.

For a excellent farm and work dog. I really liked the looks of those Bulldogs that the Georgia breeder had. He did not at that time call them a American Bulldog but claimed his dogs were the original English Bulldog from England. Today called the American Bulldog. Cheers

Great topic. The common denominator in all lines is getting the job done. At some point it has always been crossing to and creating what works.

I had Filas for a long stretch in the 90's and late 2000's. This is a breed that once had a beautiful working dog back ground doing farm work all through South America. From herding to guarding to protecting to tracking. It was an all around worker. Two things happened that crippled this breed of dogs is the industrialization of the world and the creation of a breed standard. First, as the world industrialized a lot of these farm dogs became unemployed. Then the dogs were bred on phenotype to match a written standard. When breeding for phenotype the working ability slides on a slippery slope.

Then factor in that in America every working breed dog turned show dog has been creamed with 'bigger is better'. The Rott, the German Shephard, the Doberman, all the forms of bulldog, they all have 'size sells' lined in their lineage.

Every breed has families that show traits of 'something else in the recipe'. If the working and winning APBT were "PURE" there would be little variation in shape and size. Crossing lines within a breed can swing the size, shape and weight of a dog but the faster means is to cross breeds to do the same.

Based on the title American Pit Bull TERRIER I would say yes, there is a terrier mix way back when. Crossing dogs and lining up traits to perform a task was the purpose of breeding dogs since he became man's best friend. Breeding dogs with phenotype first is a slippery slope, breeding for genotype is a much more difficult task. Genotype breeding allows ugly dogs to do good work too.

Nailing down the when, why's and who's would be the hard part in writing down the pit bull recipe.

EWO

The bulldog, the bulldog variations, and the many numbers of accepted looks is the perfect breed to see how and why dogs were crossed to obtain a desired effect.

There is a weight pull guy near here. He has American Staffordshire Terriers and Blue-type dogs. Gorgeous animals that could pull hell up off its hinges if the harness and traces hold up. Incredible strength. We are walking thru his dogs and over in the corner is a really nice, well built good looking pit bull. He shows me the pedigrees and it was a 3/4 to 7/8 Mims Red Boy male. I would stand on my head for a dog like that. He says he pulling dogs after a few generations get lazy and have little drive. He used that pit for what he called 'spirit'. One shot of him and those half and half dogs were bred back to those straight pullers and the work ethic was revived. I am sure there were hard working pulling dogs with work ethic available somewhere but he had a booster shot right there at his yard.

I'm sure the fanciers of the pure Am Staffs whispered in the background about his 'mixed dogs' but when he got the trophy at the end of the pull their comments carried little weight.

At some point there has always been a guy who crossed lines within a family to get a desired effect and at the same time his counterpart who was willing to cross breeds to get to a desired effect. All out dogs originated from these two guys and their mindsets.

Great topic.

EWO

All of our dogs originated....typing too fast.

EWO

Great thread, enjoyed everyone's contributions to the topic.

I say I LOVE BULLDOGS ANYWAY! :D

If they were crossed with poodle and retained their spirit I'd probably have a yard full of curly headed show stoppers! Haha

S_B

Great discussion! What's interesting to me is that if you look at old school pit bulls (Colbys, Tudor's Black Jack, Black Jack Jr., Corvino, etc.), a lot of them look more like AmStaffs today rather than gamebred APBTs. So now comes the question: is it maybe possible that genetically, working AmStaffs today (such as Esoteric AmStaffs or even the X-Pert line, which are down from Tacoma Jack) are more similar to the old dogs than gamebred dogs today? I do think in general, most AmStaffs are bred so far down a different purpose that they're a different breed but there are working lines (schutzhund etc.) that the owner claimed are breeding true to type based on the old AmStaff standard.

Most Pit Bull bloodlines will have some old Am Staff dogs back in their pedigrees. Using any today would be a experiment that may or may not work out under proper pit bull testing methods. If used, would only use a line of Am Staff bred down from the Tacoma-Doyle dogs of the 60's-70's era. Then would only use a AM Staff male bred to a very well built deep game A.P.B.T female.

Even then another problem will arise, is the Am Staff built to a good solid A.P.B.T. standard or too the new AM Staff show dog standard. Am Staff show dog breeders today prefer a stockier fatter looking type dog. Or they just keep them too fat period. LOL

The last Time I was at Garner's Bar-B-Q get together. I saw a few nice looking dogs. Then some I could only wonder where or what kind of dog was that. Reckon what I am trying to say is, you need too have been around some of the older dog men of the past. So you can develop a good eye for what are the best type looking dogs with a good knowledge of pedigrees and performance as well.

Dog's like Weldon's Jimmy Boots or dogs that show a lot of bone size etc. yet at a lower body weight. That was always part of the magic formula of the Jocko-Red Boy dogs. Those dogs were built strong like the old Colby and Jim Williams type dogs. Mr. Gainey near the end of his time in the dogs had perfected his own line of those dogs. I was looking at them one day and said to him. Mr. Gainey looks like you have about recreated that old Jim Williams line of dogs.

The Dog game is just full of too many variables and will always be like that. The dog men/conditioners that are the most successful are like a Top of the line Boxing or Wrestling Coach. Those Coach's know the persons that have the greatest potential to win. They also know one can have great potential to be a winner but will not if the heart and drive is not there.

I know I am getting some what off subject. Professional Race Horse trainers know the main reason for those Triple Crown winners. Is that most of those Horses are bred down from Gamer well bred Race horse descendants. Which gives those Horses bigger and better built bodies and a horse heart that is much larger than the other average to good Race Horses.

So to me it is never wrong to try a old or new idea and see what turns up. If you get some really good dogs from a modern day AM Staff cross. You are the person feeding them. They make you happy that is all that matters. But still be honest with the papers and tell anyone that might be interested in those dogs etc. They may not want any modern AM Staff in their blood lines. Cheers

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If used, would only use a line of Am Staff bred down from the Tacoma-Doyle dogs of the 60's-70's era. Then would only use a AM Staff male bred to a very well built deep game A.P.B.T female.

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I guess the problem with using working line AmStaffs is still the gameness. Even though maybe a few breeders are still trying to breed true to type, they're still generations away from breeding for the original purpose. I just felt there strains of gamebred APBTs today that are too whippety and thin boned which to me doesn't look like the original dogs of old like the Colbys.

I'm still all for the gamebred lines, don't get me wrong. But if I were to get another breed other than the APBT, I would probably go with a gamebred (if there are still any) or sporting line Staffordshire Bull Terriers instead of AmStaffs.

Skip a lot of the fine boned bulldogs are poorly fed and poorly bred imo.

Plenty of thick boned gamedogs. Heres and example, this fella is a brute and his pups aren't lacking in the bone department either.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=58427

S_B

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Originally Posted by S_B

Skip a lot of the fine boned bulldogs are poorly fed and poorly bred imo.

Plenty of thick boned gamedogs. Heres and example, this fella is a brute and his pups aren't lacking in the bone department either.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=58427

S_B

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That's a nice thick boned 1. Here's an example of what I consider a bulldog that's on the thin side. https://pedigree.gamedogs.cz/details.php?id=108935 Gr Ch Tyson Jr. Maybe it's just the pictures but I've seen pups videos and pics of pups off of him and they're all on the thin side imo.

Not to turn this into a conformation thread but I love a well built, well conformed bulldog. Buck, Machobuck, Chinaman, Dynomite, Silverback are great examples of what a bulldog should look like in my opinion.

That dogs bone is a little fine for his size, to me he looked a bit under fed as a young dog. A lot of dogmen believe in keeping a thin waist on a dog their entire life, slightly above show weight. I disagree, although I also don't think keeping them 10+ pounds over is good either.

Pups should be fed what they'll eat, I like feeding mine 3x daily to start then 2x daily until around 6 months of age. Never raised a thin boned dog, but I have seen some bred similar who are.

I don't know if there truly is terrier blood in these dogs as I simply wasn't there when they were started and the documentation is sketchy. But I do know when you have a breed who's purpose is to work their looks will vary from kennel to kennel due to selection and husbandry. Look at sled dogs for example, they don't look like the thick boned huskies we see as pets. Thick bones look nice but they can be too thick to function properly. The pet huskies wouldn't last on a long sled run as they'd tire out way too fast caring the weight of that bone. Something to consider, looks never did much but look good.

S_B

I think in the case of huskies, it's a little different because they're doing insane distances for the iditarod. I agree just breeding for looks will never do any breed good. However the saying "form follows function" should also still be true. I feel some dogmen are so consumed with gameness that they disregard conformation. All things being equal (although it never is), the dog with better conformation will win.

I feed mine 2x a day always from when he took him home at 4.5 months till now and will always feed him 2x a day. I fed him about 2-3% of his estimated full grown weight (so about 240-260 grams of meat, organs, bones, and fruits 2x/day + egg, veggies, kefir,and salmon oil which I don't count towards the 240-260g).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNHsIAbdyx0 here's a video on the original bulldog by Robert Leighton. I agree, when you bred for performance it's unclear whether the terrier was added or not. I just felt there certain strains that have the terrier look more so than others.

Like any working dog,bulldogs will vary when bred for winning or performance. Often the variations are looked over as there are weight classes for all of them. The big dog that wins is bred just like the little dog and often to one another. Size and shape follow that variation.

Even when within a family, even a tight bred family there will be an occasional big dog or little dog, away from the family norm. If that turned out to be a good one, then the variations start to mount.

Then, as will all working dogs, someone starts breeding for an outward appearance or a certain size or shape, or even color. The working ability starts to slide.

I would imagine at some point if a guy has a bone crushing killer and one of those little game ass terriers were available....etc.etc...
Maybe he says if the little terrier can give me ten more minutes I'm good.

Like the above post suggests, I was not there so I will have to work with what I have at my house. Just hard to say.

EWO

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THE PIT BULLDOG IS THE ORIGINAL. THIS BREED WAS USED TO CREATE SO MANY OTHER BREEDS. THEY CAN'T GET WHAT THE PIT BULLDOG HAS TO OFFER. FROM ANY OTHER BREED OUT THERE. GAMENESS, DETERMINATION, COURAGE AND ETC...

THERE MAY BE SOME TERRIER BUT I SEE ALOT OF HOUND AS WELL. I GUESS BACK IN THE DAY THEY HAD TO USE WHAT WORKED NO MATTER BREED OR PEDIGREE.

what always puzzled me is the separation and the different way things went between when the dogs arrived in the USA and how different it went with what was left in the UK and Ireland

where in fact the gamedog evolved to become the apbt and what little was left in Europe between 1900 and 1970
although I read a fascinating story about an indian or half indian fella that was stationed in the UK and exchanged dogs briefly with some people
also some staffs were send over in the late 70's
think it had a lot to do with the potato famine but not sure

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Originally Posted by S_B

That dogs bone is a little fine for his size, to me he looked a bit under fed as a young dog. A lot of dogmen believe in keeping a thin waist on a dog their entire life, slightly above show weight. I disagree, although I also don't think keeping them 10+ pounds over is good either.

Pups should be fed what they'll eat, I like feeding mine 3x daily to start then 2x daily until around 6 months of age. Never raised a thin boned dog, but I have seen some bred similar who are.

I don't know if there truly is terrier blood in these dogs as I simply wasn't there when they were started and the documentation is sketchy. But I do know when you have a breed who's purpose is to work their looks will vary from kennel to kennel due to selection and husbandry. Look at sled dogs for example, they don't look like the thick boned huskies we see as pets. Thick bones look nice but they can be too thick to function properly. The pet huskies wouldn't last on a long sled run as they'd tire out way too fast caring the weight of that bone. Something to consider, looks never did much but look good.

S_B

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Ive always felt that the two most contributing factors to size is what we would call environment and genetics
I keep a high standard yard and I mean really High standard , feeding the best twice a day , shit cleaned every day , water cleaned every other day , walked and or excersized twice a week( my motto is the easiest thing is culling the hardest is management)
still with all every litter I get one or two with what I call a chicken ass , a weak back end u can seen it already when there 6 months old
funny thing is they always seem to be the hottest and have the most bottom
have been trying for 20 years to breed it out , no such luck yet

on a side note there is no reason to increase weight when it gets cold , u just need to feed more times a day and increase fat ratio of the food
4 pounds above show weight is more than enough to carry one trough the winter

endurance athletes keep a small ratio between show and off season weight

Bulldoghistorian you're exactly right about management being the hardest. Managing these dogs is endless work and definitely the hardest part above all.

I get something like a "chicken ass" as you mention. I just simply call it a weak backend and also slip hicks from time to time. I try to factor that into my breeding selection, but the fact is they choose we don't.

While Bulldogs all look similar they are all selected differently by their breeders. I get where some look more terrier type while others more houndish. Who really knows what has been woven in there. I've heard of bitches being bred by strays and some really game dogs coming of it, they very well could have been bred back and continued with many many times in the breeds history.

What's interesting to me I have a few dogs with very intense noses. My house dog never fails to smell when anything different is around, whether it be a human driving by, a varmint or stale bread I sneak out and put in the yard for the birds. She without fail finds everything with her nose, makes me wonder what is in her background. lol

S_B

I feel there were two types of the breed in America. The farm/hunting dog and the pit dog. Farmers and hunters in the countryside needed a reliable and dependable dog. It is my opinion that they crossed bulldogs with hounds and other farm dogs. This breeding was done to produce the desired dog(s) that the farmers/hunters needed the dogs to do. The pit dogs in my opinion were bred close to true. There may have been cases were a stray may have slipped in and bred to one of the females that were bred back into these dogs. Because in that era it was perfectly acceptable for a dogs to run loose. It was also frowned upon to have a bulldog tied up.

The predecessors of all terriers is the White English and the Black & Tan. The White English is the predecessor to the English Bull Terrier, Fox Terrier, Old Bedlington Terrier, Jack Russell Terrier. The Black & Tan is the predecessor to the Manchester Terrier, German Pincher, Airedale, Welsh, Patterdale, and etc...

So my question is if a A.P.B.T. is a bulldog/terrier cross. Why doesn't it come from the two terriers who produced all Terriers?

White English
http://i68.tinypic.com/2zodopf.jpg

Was lookin at some old photos of bulldogs, there are 2 or 3 that resembles a bull terrier. Unfortunately I forgot the names.