Springpole

I've read several threads here regarding the use of springpole in a keep or just general exercise. Many people don't like using it in a keep but ok just for general exercise when not in a keep. Just wondering why is it bad in a keep? Imo, other than the jenny while working a hide and with a counter weight, the springpole is the closest exercise that mimics the actual work. I understand if you don't want to do mouth work 1-3 weeks before the end of the keep but why against the springpole for a keep in general? If you keep all 4 feet or just the back feet on the ground, isn't it one of the best exercise you can do?

The spring pole is a great tool for conditioning. But I'd say as far as in a keep one that should be used very carefully. Early on if you keep your feet on the ground and let the dog mouth it, it is good for wind sprints.

As the dog gets more in shape it will be hard to be faster than the dog, the dog is very enthusiastic and could injure itself which would defeat your purpose. Also if the dog gets the hide, you'll be needing a tool to remove him from it, risking mouth injury.

So early on yes, as the keep advances no imo.

S_B

S_B your comment is a bit confusing.. it seems your confusing spring pole work with flirt work?

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Originally Posted by BLADE

S_B your comment is a bit confusing.. it seems your confusing spring pole work with flirt work?

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My bad lol I did get ahead of myself there didn't I. Thanks for correcting me Blade.

I like spring pole work, but like flirt would discontinue in the later stages of conditioning to avoid mouth injury.

S_B

I use both til late in the keep. I make sure all four feet are on the ground and the pull is on a level plane. From the base of the tree vs. from up the trunk or from a limb/branch. I like to see the dog pull straight back and basically crunch his 'abs/abdomen' with each tug. The shaking back and forth is OK and of the dog lean toward that I ease up/lessen the time. If he is a pull and snatch backwards hide worker then I add it a little more.

The flirt pole is a main stay. My best efforts with it was once when I had an open chain link pen, maybe 40X50. I could let the dog run loose. I had a long fiber glass rod like the ones with a little flag on the back of a kids bike. It was like 12' or so. I put the hide on the end and I could stretch the dog out in 30' plus sprints, change of direction and sprint the other way.

I used it all the way thru.

EWO

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Originally Posted by EWO

I use both til late in the keep. I make sure all four feet are on the ground and the pull is on a level plane. From the base of the tree vs. from up the trunk or from a limb/branch. I like to see the dog pull straight back and basically crunch his 'abs/abdomen' with each tug. The shaking back and forth is OK and of the dog lean toward that I ease up/lessen the time. If he is a pull and snatch backwards hide worker then I add it a little more.

The flirt pole is a main stay. My best efforts with it was once when I had an open chain link pen, maybe 40X50. I could let the dog run loose. I had a long fiber glass rod like the ones with a little flag on the back of a kids bike. It was like 12' or so. I put the hide on the end and I could stretch the dog out in 30' plus sprints, change of direction and sprint the other way.

I used it all the way thru.

EWO

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Wouldn't it better to have the front feet just barely off the ground to mimic if he's getting pushed back in the actual show and having to maintain a hold? He'll still crunch because it's low enough that he's not necessarily hanging off the ground.

I've read an interview with Ozzie Stevens in SDJ August 2010 that flirtpole was his secret for conditioning. He started with 25 jumps and ended up with 900 jumps in a day (450 in the morning, 450 at night). Not sure if he's telling the truth but that's an awful lots of jump.

I always question the amount of jumps too. But who am I? LOL

I like the feet on the ground. I have seen it done a ton of different ways. I like to see his front legs push against the ground, digging in while he tugs on the hide.

The flirt pole is/can be as effective as any tool in the shed. I am a big fan. For me, the hardest part is getting the most out of it. Putting the dog on a chain or cable run takes a little away from it. When I had the pen open I could let the dog go in any and every direction. I did not have to worry about him going after another dog or a squirrel/rabbit that happened to wander by. I could send him in circles, across the pen, changing direction, stops and starts.

On the chain and the cable runs works as well but an open free run works better. I wish I had not filled that pen back up.

EWO

I agree, flirtpole should be used w/ the dog off leash to gain the most benefit. S_B also has good points in stopping the flirtpole in the later stages of the keep, but I guess that also depends on the dog (how hard he goes, how you use the flirtpole, etc.). Also do you guys think dog that doesn't bite hard on the springpole (because he's not that interested or whatever reason) is a soft mouth dog in the real hunt, or is it a totally different thing?

Could be the same and at the same time have absolutely no connection.

Some dogs bite because they want to, and in turn they can bite when they want and bite what they want. There is a male out side right now that will grab onto the 1" cotton rope and fight it til he nearly passes out. The negatives are the strands of cotton come off and he swallows them. I see some strings in his stool on occasion. I tried cow hides and he will not sniff it much less bite it. Without the cotton rope to work three or four times per day he starts in on the bowls, chains, rocks and roots. He is on the edge of being a hard keeper, actually on the edge leaning over looking down.

His littermate sister will bite anything that comes in her chain spot.

I worked a big male once that was really awesome on the flirt pole. He would chase it til no end. No interest in the spring pole. He would not bite it at all. On the flirt pole he would chase it forever, and when he occasionally caught the hide. He would put it on the ground and push it with his foot to make it move again. Game on from there.

And after all that babbling. Every dog is different.

EWO

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Originally Posted by skip11

I agree, flirtpole should be used w/ the dog off leash to gain the most benefit. S_B also has good points in stopping the flirtpole in the later stages of the keep, but I guess that also depends on the dog (how hard he goes, how you use the flirtpole, etc.). Also do you guys think dog that doesn't bite hard on the springpole (because he's not that interested or whatever reason) is a soft mouth dog in the real hunt, or is it a totally different thing?

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Another question. Can a dog be a hard biter but has a shitty/ineffective hold? E.G. does a dog that can go 3 hours hanging on a springpole means he automatically has a hard bite or he can have a soft mouth but just determined enough to hold for a long time?

Actually I think you are right. And I think that is where the confusion and myths appears.

There is no way to tell which ones are sinking them the furthest. It is what they do after sinking them that matters.

GRCH Rufus was a pressure biter. He did very little surface damage. Wherever he put his mouth would swell like a balloon.
In the beginning he was not considered a hard mouth dog until they started dropping under him. Even trhu violent shakes and re grips seldom did he leave surface damage to 'indicate mouth'.

An example. With your right arm grab your left wrist. Squeeze as hard as you can and while squeezing attempt to move your right hand up and down your left arm. The harder your squeeze, the better your grip, the least amount of travel. Basically only the skin on your left arm will move.

The slightly lessen your grip. Repeat. Your hand will slide some up and down your left arm.

Completely release the pressure and your right hand will slide up and down the arm freely.

Example 1 is a freak mouth dog. Imagine if there were nails in your hand sunk in. They would be deep, and with the tight grip the holes would remain close to the same size of the nail. The damage would be deep.

Example 2 the damage would be just about as deep, but the holes at the surface would be bigger. And to the eye more damage had been done.

The third example would be appear to be a horrific murder scene, the lacerations would be all over the arm, not all that deep but all over the arm. It would appear to be a lot of damage when in turn mostly skin wounds.

Lots of dogs accredited with hard mouth are really in group 3. it is the lack of mouth that appears to be a lot of mouth. (on the surface)

Mouth should be determined by the total effect not just the outwardly appearance.

I agree with your post.

There is no correlation between the hide and actual mouth. I had a female once that would hang off a hide for just about forever. In the summer for so long til she passed out, wake up and then go again. Without a hide hanging she would eat rocks, roots houses, etc. So I kept her with a hide off a garage door spring and a hide 24/7.

She had so-so mouth. But what she had was violent shakes. Incredible neck strength and a powerful core. She did not bite incredibly hard but the aftermath looked like she was an axe murderer.

EWO

Gotcha. My 10.5 month old pup now who doesn't look like he has a hard bite because he can't hold on to the bait on the springpole. But I do think he does bite hard on the first bite but just can't hold. He accidentally bite my thigh when trying to grab my pants when he was 5 months old and got a good bruise from it.

Another story of mouth. DTA's Ch. Charlie. We were walking down a long dirt road with pastures on both sides. The snap hook on the lead broke and he made a 50-60 yard sprint, under the fence and latched onto a goat. It took us a minute or so to get over the fence and to him. We broke him off and headed for the truck. We carried him home and went back to pay for the goat.

Paid $150 for a busted up goat. We brought him home and put him down. As we skinned him the teeth marks looked amazingly similar to buckshot when skinning a dear. Holes were as big as a #2 pencil, the black blood had formed around the hole, the swelling had set it along with deep bruising. It looked awful on the inside.

On a mouth scale of 1-10 Charlie was a 7, an 8 would be stretching it. So if I factored in those freaks graded 9-10.

Then to think these dogs scratch back to this for hours on end. Amazing creatures.

EWO

Hahah that's crazy. The craziest bite I've ever seen on video was by Bad Rosemary. Left a big hole on the chest. Now that's a freak mouth.

To update my pup; he decided to finally hold on to the hide (2nd day ever springpoling w/ a cow hide) albeit for only 50 seconds (he was only holding on for like 2-3 seconds the first day). I think this confirms what you're saying EWO that a dog bites hard when it wants + how bad he likes the toy/hates the dog.

There are so many things that affect bite. Over or under weight can turn a dog who would bite on a 9 to a 5 in a quick minute.

My Hatchet male will fight a cotton rope for hours on end and will not give an actual hide a second look.

A well conditioned dog who has gas in the tank who bites on a 7 and is still biting on a 7 50-75 minutes in, appears to have way more mouth than the one that starts off at 7-8-9 but tires to a 5 in short order.

Dogs who are strong in the neck and core may be more violent in the shakes which in turn looks like more mouth, more bite strength.

If your dog is starting to work it then tease him a little with it between sets. Get his prey drive steaming and let him have it.

Your job is to make it fun and a big game for him. At 10 months old he should never think he is doing work. It is a mean trick to play on him but it will be well worth the deception later in life. LOL

EWO

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Originally Posted by EWO

Your job is to make it fun and a big game for him. At 10 months old he should never think he is doing work. It is a mean trick to play on him but it will be well worth the deception later in life. LOL

EWO

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He was always lacking in toy drive. Only this past 1-2 months did he really start to want to play and maybe only the past month that he really wants to bite a toy. The cow hide is the only thing that really gets him geeked up. Other toys he'll play for a while then he'll get bored. He'll just suddenly stop even though it looks like he's getting into it. With the cow hide, he's literally searching for it during the day (he's a house dog). I could never tease him with another toy (maybe for like a few min then he'll just ignore it). 1st day on it, he can't hold on to it at all, won't tug too (actually he never really wants to play tug, he'll just grab the toy and lay down and tries to rip it apart). 2nd and 3rd day were really good like I mentioned above. He's finally starting to hold on to it. I really happy with his progress.

That's good. Let him progress naturally. Odds are he will get better and better. If he does great, if he does not, no biggie. Working the hide is only one tool in the shed. So many more to choose from.

Best of luck.

EWO

Thanks EWO. Do you do springpole or any kind of bitework everyday?

A couple three times per week.

I try to mimic as much about the show as possible.

I taper off at the end.

If in keep I do not let their feet come off the ground.

I usually do it at the end of the days work. Let them bite, rip and shake after they are tired.

EWO

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Originally Posted by EWO

Then to think these dogs scratch back to this for hours on end. Amazing creatures.

EWO

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Old thread, I know, but this was a great story, and a perfect conclusion. When you were working the flirt pole in the open pen, how high was the chainlink? Any chance the dog could jump it?

This chain link is 5ft. I doubt he could all out jump it. I use it more so in case he were to get distracted by a rabbit or squirrel and chose to chase them.

I'm sure 4ft would work the same as long as the dog was locked in on flirt object with the owner in the pen with them.

EWO

I don't know man, I've seen some high-jumping bulldogs.

I'm sure there are some.

If I were building one it would be 5ft or 6ft fence. The one I used was a pen for the Fila Brasileiros we once had. It served the purpose to work with the bulldogs off lead doing flirt work.

Most were so locked in on the flirt pole game they never knew the fence was there.

EWO

it is a great tool and can be used all the way through

I am hoping this is where you spend a lot of your time and your posts.

The conditioning of the dogs has always peeked my interests most.

We traded some emails and texts awhile back. You own some property on Vicksboro Road and I was going to have my nephew do some yardwork.

Small world.

EWO

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Originally Posted by bolero

it is a great tool and can be used all the way through

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I've always set up mine so that my dog's front feet are slightly off the ground. But now, he always grabs the hide at the top and hangs (or with just the back feet off the ground). He doesn't crunch as much anymore. The springpole session turns into more of a flirtpole work with him jumping to grab the hide at the top instead just grabbing and working it from the bottom lol.

It is funny how they feel the need to get closer and closer to the top.

I have one out there where it is level with hi and I have to give it to him a couple three times per day. He has that destructive/hard keeper gene just looking to burst thru. If I skip a day he will start in on the bowls or the house.

In the snow/ice, in the rain, or even when it is 98 degrees. Its that or lose the hardware.

His keeps four feet on the ground for the most part. He has cut a hole in the ground from planting his feet and pulling. Every so often I move it up and get his front feet of the ground. For him I have to give it to him and then tie it off. If I dangle it at the height I want he then jumps higher and grabs it up near the tie point/close to the tie point.

They can be weird. LOL

EWO

Hahah ya some dogs are just weird. Another thing I notice is that mine will bite and hold harder when there is another dog (especially if it's a tug of war) vs when he's playing by himself. Just the present of another dog geeks him up, just turned everything up a notch or two.

I use two springs that go to two separate dogs across form one another.

They do ramp it up when thinking it is the other dog on the other end.

EWO