Conditioning only on a Raw feed diet or a Kibble with Supplement added diet?

Thought today I would play the devil's advocate. See where this topic would go. LOL Near the end of my time in the dogs. Thought of just using a very good dog food kibble with added supplements. Try and by pass any raw meats. Can only wonder if other known dog men have went this route with good success over all. I had built some excellent mills and excess to private places to walk my dogs. I had planned to try out this method in some prekeeps. But never got around to it.

Now we know from Ca. Jack's kibble research,that a kibble with excellent ingredients like EVO kibble could be good. If the moisture content had not been to low. Not that Ca. Jack was advocating a kibble over a raw feed diet. Was just giving facts on the worse to the over all best kibble feeds.

Now it appears that even with good to a excellent ingredients listing and good moisture. What is lacking is what is destroyed in the cooking process. Mainly enzymes and the macrobiotic factor. I do not know for sure if a macrobiotic formula is added last or during the cooking process. If during the cooking process is probably made of no effect. Yet it will still be listed in the kibble fromula.

I would think the proteins and amino acid profile with the fats would be kept intact. Since boiled eggs are more beneficial than eating raw ones since a biotin deficiency can occur overtime.

So lets start with Dog lovers Gold kibble. Add depending on the size of dog, one to two boiled eggs. One to two heaping table spoons of Desiccated Liver and Debitter Brewers Yeast. These would help complete any incomplete proteins in the kibble. Fortify the B-Vitams and help build the blood count. A capful of liquid Geritol helps build the blood count as well. J. Crenshaw used Sorbitol,others used Red Cell.

Some cloves of crushed garlic/kale and spinach greens. The Green Tripe to enhance the macrobiotics formula and improve digestion. Some Flax oil etc. as needed to enhance the oils in the kibble formula. With that said. Work the dog to weight and add the kibble as needed to stay on weight through whole keep. On last forth into last three rest days. Dog is being fed on a 28 to 30 hour feed cycle to assure all stool is out of the lower bowels of the dog.

One of the reasons I have thought about this many times. Was when I got into the dogs as a green horn along with A. Howle. We knew nothing about feeding a dog for a keep. All dog men in our area,with what ever breed of dogs. Predominately used Jim Dandy dog kibble. The Fox and Coon hunters hunted their dogs a lot. With no apparent problems. Back then this Jim Dandy dog food had a lot of animal protein and used only corn kibble as the carbohydrate base/filler.

In our keep we used this dog food along with pretty much the supplements mentioned above. Even added one Hoe cake cooked in bacon grease in each feeding. Dog would about take your hand off to eat that hoe cake. LOL

We worked the dog hard. It held up real good in the keep. Stayed on weight and was very strong till three weeks near the end of keep. One thing we had no proper knowledge of and access too. Was the whip side worming medication. Our dog came down with the whip worms, gums went from blood red to pink. Took to vet and wormed, rested a few days and right back to the work.

This dog gave a excellent account of it'self, did not run hot. Mr. Teal told us later that a whip worm worming that late in the keep could be hard on a dog. Mr. Teal taught us how to worm out a dog,what medications to use at that time. Later Don Mayfield came out with a better worming schedule that was printed in SDJ. Access to better dog worming medications today and using that worm schedule of Mayfields. A dog should have no worm problems in any type of dog keep used today.

Said all that to say this. It seemed the more I thought I knew and was trying all sorts of things. When I knew nothing except for the worming knowledge. With hard work and giving the dog rest days we were doing much better over all. LOL Cheers

I think it would work. I am very close to saying it would work just as well. The only thing really missing is the easy digestability of the animal fats, especially the chicken fat. The other issue would be picking one of the higher end kibbles like you mentioned, one with a higher quality protein.

The basic requirements would be met with the higher end kibble, and then add the supplementation and it is a solid feed plan. I think the dogs would hold up very well with a good work/rest combination.

The dogs will adapt to most anything fed. My brother-in-law runs fox hounds, both on the inside and outside. (fox pens). He runs his dogs hard and often. These dogs go on 1/2 to 3/4 trots til they jump/strike and then it is an all out sprint til that race is over. This is four-five-six hour hunts. Not saying this is comparable to a bulldog show or a bulldog keep but it is a hard expenditure of energy for long periods of time. He feeds his hogs and chickens old bread and produce from the local food bank. He was getting a pick up truck load of bread for $8. He started feeding his hounds bread. First in addition to dry food (cheap dry food at that) and then to straight bred alone. I told him the dogs would fade in a couple three months of hard running and bread as a staple. It did not happen. The dogs were fed lots of deer meat thru the season and when the season was over it was back to bread. They never lost a step. They ran just as hard and just as long as they did on bread, bread and deer meat or bread and dog food.

Strange comparison. But sometimes we may over think these dogs some. The good Lord intended them to forage around eating what they found, sometimes killing for their next meal. Most of these dogs would eat the ass out of a dead skunk. It was just how they were built, how they were designed.

Great topic.

EWO

I remember Jim Dandy dog food. It was slightly more expensive than Field Trial. We fed Field Trial. Back then it was $6 for a 50lb. bag. The chunks would sometimes have feathers. One of the quality checks people used was to soak a chunk in water. The bigger it swelled the cheaper the food. Field Trial would double in size. We filled a 5 gallon bucket 1/2 way. Filled the rest of the way with water. In a short period of time it would be 5 gallons of mush. There were bulldogs and coon dogs on chains. Rabbit dogs, two bird dogs in pens and a monster of a Doberman Pinscher that ran the yard. All fed from 2-3 five gallon buckets.

These dogs performed with the best of them. The keep feed was this same food, but the supplements were added, along with chicken necks/chicken backs. Back then the supplement of choice was Clovite ( a horse supplement). Greens and jack cheeses.

When the dog dumped a stick was used to cut a turd in half. If it were brown and hard more greens were added. If it was a mush pile the dog food was lowered and the backs/neck were increased. When he pissed if it were dark or darker than the day before the Clovite was lessened from two spoon-fuls to one, the salt was removed and the water intake increased. When it lightened up the second spoon of Clovite was added and the salt was re-added.

This was just about a prehistoric stool sample and urinalysis. In a couple of weeks the feed/supplementation would be dialed in for that dog and the hard work would begin. An occasional adjustment would be made but it would be minor. From then it was all about work and rest.

One of the last really busy roads to be paved in our area was called the 'hog parlor' road. The road is at least 10-12 miles long. It has a real 'city' name now but anyone close to 50 or older still refers to it as the 'hog parlor road'. In turn, as a kid he used the 'hog parlor keep'. He had a 8ft. lead and a really nice 1975 Chevrolet station wagon. We held the lead out the side window and he drove up and down that road. He changed speeds as his side view mirror suggested. It is funny but I never remember a pad issue running on that gravel/dirt road. The next day it was slat mill runs followed by long slow walks. Sometimes pulling chains, some times not.

After that it was back to the Field Trial/chicken neck feedings. We would make the feed in a large dish and go work the dog and when we got back it was quite the soaked down concoction. Spoon in the Clovite/salt and off to the keep box for a night of rest.

These dogs competed very well back then. And looking back I would just about laugh at someone using Field Trial as any means of nutrition for a dog. And at the same time I would freak if I were riding in a car towing a bulldog down a road passing car after car, and car after car passing us. Prehistoric times.

EWO

I think it's safe to say that dogs have performed on kibble based dog food for many years without any problems. I've used various kibbles throughout, and the dogs won and lost on their own merits, not on the merits of what they were fed. Now, do I think the raw food is better for them? Yes I do, even if you give the supplementation with the kibble food, it's still better food for them as they use more and waste less of what's actually going into the dog. I don't think feed makes any significant difference in how a dog performs during show time. I've never thought that simply because I've seen both ends of that spectrum, and the differences that are generally noticed are genetic more so than feed.

Either way, if someone feeds their dog kibble, and the dogs do well on it, who am I to say they're doing it wrong simply because I think differently. Kibble will always have a place, just as raw will.

Well said, I remember one of my first posts on here was if a guy was winning feeding 'cornflakes and cabbage' one would be hard pressed to convince him other wise.

I'm sure a bunch of dogs have won on kibble alone. And with that said, I would venture the same the win was not based on the food choice as Frosty said.

EWO

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

I think it's safe to say that dogs have performed on kibble based dog food for many years without any problems. I've used various kibbles throughout, and the dogs won and lost on their own merits, not on the merits of what they were fed. Now, do I think the raw food is better for them? Yes I do, even if you give the supplementation with the kibble food, it's still better food for them as they use more and waste less of what's actually going into the dog. I don't think feed makes any significant difference in how a dog performs during show time. I've never thought that simply because I've seen both ends of that spectrum, and the differences that are generally noticed are genetic more so than feed.

Either way, if someone feeds their dog kibble, and the dogs do well on it, who am I to say they're doing it wrong simply because I think differently. Kibble will always have a place, just as raw will.

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You said that you dont think the feed has anything to do with performance during show time but my question to you and the other members is do you think with raw a lower pit weight can be called on a dog?

Ditto gotap_d. The raw diet should enable a dog to compete at a lower pit weight and remain strong. Could be a greater advantage in Hot and humid type weather. Was probably how Mayfield got the edge over Bobby Hall and others. Mayfield got those dog men to match their hard charging/hard biting dogs in that Texas summer heat. A deep game dog is still standing and scratching hard around the hour mark. The rougher harder biting dog could be in serious trouble at that point. LOL

Don Mayfield's keep that was posted in the SDJ, near the end of keep dog was on a all out raw diet. When Don went into Stinson & Glover's Ruby with his Easy bitch. Would be nice to know what Ruby was fed and what sort of work method was used. I saw both bitches up close and both were in outstanding condition.

In cold weather a dog may fair better with kibble added to feed. Been watching this dog sled competitor on the (Below Zero series). He uses whole dried salmon (any occasional whole squirrels he shot) cooked with kibble and plenty of the broth water. These dogs are worked hard. I like his dog chain set up as well.

Where I lived I learned the hard way, that raw fish was not the way to go. Even cooked was too hard on the dog's kidneys and produced to much heat in the body. In extreme cold weather Fish seems to work much better.

Even if one has had success with basically a kibble feed keep. The Protein & Fat content would have to be adjusted for the daily type weather dog was being exercised in.

Overtime for me it became evident that chicken necks and whole chicken backs with all the skin/fat attached with or without kibble worked the over all best for working dogs in my area.

EWO mentioned how versatile a dog's diet could be from his past experiences and observations. I remember reading a conditioning/feed article written by a dog man named Maffie in the SDJ dog journal. His feed was really different almost vegetarian. His dogs performed well and won. Cheers

I have been using Annamaet Extra kibble with a low dose of RF1 to round out any supplemental deficiencies as well as salmon oil almost every meal. I will add in a little anchovy/sardine oil, flax or a little olive oil from time to time. I add buttermilk once a week with a little bit of honey or bee pollen (I learned this form an old timer who swears by it). Throughout the week I will mix in a little green tripe, fatty chicken (bone-in), or ground sardines. Occasionally I add in a little cottage cheese too. The only thing I haven't really played with is adding in a greens, but will play with this soon. Any one else use RF-1 at all? If so just curious about your results. I only use it at half the recommended maintenance dose, maybe less. oh yeah, I add water to every meal in hopes of making the kibble more digestible and also because of the RF-1 powder.

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Originally Posted by gotap_d

You said that you dont think the feed has anything to do with performance during show time but my question to you and the other members is do you think with raw a lower pit weight can be called on a dog?

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I think that's true for most people, yes. The issue with that is most people are scared to go at a lower weight due to their, IMO, inability to manage a dog correctly at a lower weight. Your chance of error is greater as are the consequences for the dog if you miss at a lower weight. I've seen countless dogs over the years go at a weight that I figure is 1 to 2 lbs over their best weight, and that's on kibble. My take on weight is that most dogs are able to give up some amount of weight without any issues. We all see it during schooling, etc as rarely are both dogs of equal weight and equal size. Do I want to give up weight during a show? No. Would I? Yes, and I have, and the reasons vary.

I've always gotten dogs to lower weights on raw than kibble, and I think most people would also, but the convenience of kibble simply is too hard to give up for most people.

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Originally Posted by Milehighmisfit

I have been using Annamaet Extra kibble with a low dose of RF1 to round out any supplemental deficiencies as well as salmon oil almost every meal. I will add in a little anchovy/sardine oil, flax or a little olive oil from time to time. I add buttermilk once a week with a little bit of honey or bee pollen (I learned this form an old timer who swears by it). Throughout the week I will mix in a little green tripe, fatty chicken (bone-in), or ground sardines. Occasionally I add in a little cottage cheese too. The only thing I haven't really played with is adding in a greens, but will play with this soon. Any one else use RF-1 at all? If so just curious about your results. I only use it at half the recommended maintenance dose, maybe less. oh yeah, I add water to every meal in hopes of making the kibble more digestible and also because of the RF-1 powder.

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First thing Mile, is I must say you're basically feeding a raw diet now, so why even bother feeding the kibble with all you give? Just a question really :)

Bee pollen doesn't hurt anything, and there is some science to back the use of it, especially if it's coming from your general area of where you live.

I've used RF1 as a food supplement before during a keep, and I've also done a keep feeding nothing but RF1 throughout the entire keep. It works as it should IMO.

Frosty,
Good question, but most of there calories are coming from kibble and have been using the raw food to round things out I guess. Basically they always get kibble, rf-1 and oil. Once or twice a week they will get an egg lightly boiled, once or twice a week they will get some chicken (sometimes grocery store bought chicken, or whole ground chicken from hare-today.com). Maybe eventually I will switch over entirely. I have done the full raw thing before and it seemed to work well,definitely smaller poops that was for sure.

I'm getting ready to start shaping one in a couple of days. She is currently eating Orien 6 Fish. But I'm going to wean her into raw to do a raw keep. I will be using chicken backs, beef fat, RF-1,Lixotinic, Bee Pollen,mustard greens & kales,yogurt,joint flex & a muscle fortifier. My questions are : since I have the RF-1 & Lixotinic are the greens & muscle fortifier & joint flex needed? This is my 1st time using RF-1. ALL HELP WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!

Ditto BSK. I would reduce your dog in the prekeep with the amount of kibble feed, dog has been eating for good health maintenance. In what ever part of the country you live in has a factor also. Assuming this dog is active and not being overfed. In other words not hog fat on the chain. If dog is hog fat can take up to twelve weeks to slowly work to best show weight.

Now here is where I differ IMHO on feeding in the prekeep. Assuming again you have slowly prekeeped this dog before and know it's best show weight. We liked to work a dog depending on the size of the dog. To work the dog at 1/2 to 1 pound below it's over all best show weight. You will see just slightly the top of the hip bones showing and about all ribs showing. You are not into the serious hard work yet, so do mostly easy aerobic trotting and hand walking. Reason for this is to insure all the gut fat is worked out of the dog. This is extra important if you are showing your dog in hot weather. There can be no or very little gut fat in a dog being shown in hot weather.

One other thing on a hot weather show dog. The dog should hopefully be big boned and rangy built with lots of gameness. Heat and lack of air will stop a show dog quicker than anything else. Not a bad idea to breed dogs for the bigger bone structure and rangy built. These type built dogs are hard to whip in any dog show season. LOL

Back on subject. Any of those proven supplements while also putting the dog through it's worming schedule. Add them at a third amount in first half of pre keep. Then full recommended dosage (only) in last half of pre keep. The greens should be canned unsalted greens. Add about three fingers and a thumb full at a time. The greens give the dog enough roughage to keep the bowels regulated and some vitamin K benefits.

You only add the Chicken meat to the keep when you start the serious work. We started out with one chicken back and chicken neck with about a cup of the broth. The kibble amount used in the prekeep will remain the same through the whole keep. Dog losing weight,add another back and neck. Most of our dogs were little dogs,never went past two necks and backs. Make sure to use the skin and all the fat. Do not remove.

The kibble you are using. If this dog show is in the heat. If this same kibble comes in a lower protein and fat content use that kibble formula in hot weather. The higher protein/fat formula can be used in the cold winter months. The higher protein count can create heat in the dog's body. Is why sled dog men use a lot of high protein/high fat source from Salmon fish etc. So lower protein/fat kibble formulas for hot weather dog shows. Long as the kibble has a good quality chicken based feed formula. The dog will get all the needed natural bone meal/meat protein and easier digested fat from the chicken necks/chicken backs.

Some like to feed two solid meals a day. IMHO I disagree due to one can not accurately know the dogs true weight on any given day. Nothing wrong with some good quality fluids 12 hours from the main PM work out. This should be done in the pre keep and the main keep. Start out with eight ounces and check the skin everyday to see how hydrated your dog is. IMHO any AM work should be just hand walking light trotting. The PM is for the serious work.

Sorry if this was as some say. To much information. LOL I probably am preaching to the choir. LOL You and many of these other dog men have learned better and newer ways to skin that cat. I am coming from a time line of the 70's and the 80's. Cheers

Great post as always, CYJ.

Thanks Sir. But my questions were : since I'm using RF-1 do I need I still need the horse muscle fortifier & MSM & since I'm using Lixotinic do I still need the greens? She is eating Orien 6 fish but Im going to wean her to all raw (chicken backs & beef fat).

BSK you will need the greens to help keep enough bulk in the dogs diet to move the stool through the bowels to avoid any constipation. No matter what type feed keep one uses. There has to be something in the total feed mixture to add bulk for proper fluid absorption and stool elimination. Greens added will not hurt any sort of feed keep being used.

Greens will be your best over all choice for natural fiber. One of the reasons the older feed keeps kept some kibble was to insure good bowel movement and allowing the dog to feel like it has eaten a full meal.

Eliminating the kibble in a hot weather keep is not a bad idea, should help the dog maintain a leaner weight with no access fat in the gut etc. areas. If what you plan to do and have already seen excellent results in another show or prekeep. Go for it. Long as your dog stays bright eyed/glossy skin/blood red gums/no dehydration/kicking up the dirt after a no straining solid bowel movement. You are good to go.

Will have to look up the info on that Lixotinic product. That is a new product I have not read about. There is nothing wrong with good quality supplement products used in moderation. But still no substitute for good solid food. Just like any hard working human. That dog has got to feel like it has eaten a solid meal of life sustaining food. If not, will become ravenous and even start eating it's own stool etc. Right in front of your eyes. LOL

If I am not giving BSK the exact right answers he is asking. Please, the dog persons with more newer keep knowlege, chime in and help this fellow compadre out. I always believed any well intentioned dog man should be given a fair shake in the game. Helps the best over dogs to win and used for future breeding to improve the sport. Cheers

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Originally Posted by CYJ

I always believed any well intentioned dog man should be given a fair shake in the game. Helps the best over dogs to win and used for future breeding to improve the sport. Cheers

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:appl:

CYJ,

I've never once thought you were steering anyone wrong in your advice. You may think your information is "outdated" I see it as you must have been before your time with feed and vitamin knowledge.

S_B

Thank you very much S_B. I learned a lot from that transplanted Texas Marine that I met up at Mr. Teal's place. He was way ahead of his times. LOL Over time though,I found out one can not just blindly use another person's work keep/feed keep. IMHO there are too many variables in different peoples life styles and climate locations. One has to work out a work keep/feed keep around their own work schedules/ life styles and the basic climate area they live in. Very possible a feed/work keep used with success in S.C. may need to be changed or adjusted say in a dry climate like in Texas/Mountainous area where air is thinner or a extra hot humid place like Louisiana.

Why it is much harder to travel over 500 miles to another dog persons back yard and win. When Lonzo Pratt beat a winning dog of Leo Kinards with his Mike dog. Lonzo had a friend airplane pilot and they flew in close to the dog show arena around three or so weeks in advance. Finish peaking the Mike dog right up under their noses. This allowed his Mike dog to get more use to the climate change. Pratt's Mike was a fresh butt kicking dog when the command to release your dogs was given. Rest is dog history on that event.

In my part of the woods a extra large round table under a weather proof shed was much more reliable than a swinging jenny. Even if I did like and prefer a Jenny. I had one 80 feet long with a excellent running track. The dogs that would run it,(most would not) did not like the freezing blowing wind or half froze water in the track or the scorching sun/ heat plus high humidity. No more than I did. LOL Never had a first time dog or even puppies that did not like running a big round table. Was like a hamster in a squirrel cage event. LOL Overtime going around to various known dog person's yards. Would usually see a big round table that was at least used as a bad weather back up along with a free spinning tread mill or carpet mill. Note James Crenshaw had that extra wide well built (probably German made) treadmill up on his back yard porch.

Said all this to say this. Try to learn how to work a dog in the best time efficient way one can afford. Or will end up working themselves to a frazzle. Will not be long before the person or the dog will be wondering who is working who. LOL

Need to get back on subject. Cheers

Hello BSK. I looked up some of those products. I read the review on the RF-1 product on Tom's Face book site. For as any added supplementation. The RF-1 should cover everything. Adding another liquid blood builder formula that is shown in the Lixotinic product. Could throw everything off in your vitamin-mineral packet that is in Tom's RF-1 product. Could cause some of those vitamins-minerals to become toxic and strain the dog's liver and kidneys.

Natural MSM is the stinking natural sulphur we smell after breaking open boiling eggs. The MSM sold in the health food stores is fine. I take a heaping teaspoon of MSM with water every day and a one ounce shot of straight lemon juice/one ounce shot of Noni juice. The MSM only in in the A.M.

Putting MSM in powered form in any type dog food could make the feed very undesirable to eat. MSM in it's pure powered form is extremely bitter tasting. I just throw it to the back of my tongue and shoot it down with some water. Can be very nauseating if allowed to dissolve in the mouth. Unless you have already tried it on a dog, not sure how a dog would react to MSM even in capsule form. I know the Now Food company sells a Glucosamine/Chondrotin/MSM product in a hard jell capsule.

Dogs respond to to Glucosamine/Chondrotin/Creatine much better than humans do. Reason I guess is the lesser body weight to human dosage and much stronger digestive acids. I believe the RF-I already has the right amount of top quality Creatine/Glucosame/Chondrotin in it. One other thing about pure MSM. Best taken in the A.M as it can rev up the nervous and energy system. Taken to late in the P.M. can keep one awake at night. Cheers

Thanks for taking the time to share these past times with us, CYJ. I enjoy them all.

The kicker is that the dogs have not evolved to the point that nutritional information from the 70's and 80's will not work.

I think some go a little far with supplementation. The ingredients are great but the dog does not get that full feeling and in turn does not digest as well. The greens and/or the use of kibble help keep the gut/digestive tract working. This is a must if the particular keep allows the dog to stay outside.

In the colder months, a keep diet less kibble or greens will make maintaining weight a little more difficult. On straight RAW you will see a little more swing in the weight AM to PM to AM. For no better analogy the raw is a one pass, great assimilation and out. Leaving the gut, stomach and tract close to empty. In turn the dog will shiver its own bodyweight in the night.
Even if you up the raw food amount they will do a great job of assimilating.

The greens and/or kibble will, for lack of a better analogy, will hang around a little longer. So during the night the dog will continue to digest. Providing body warmth in the cold.

The end result is basically the same, the dog will empty in the morning, the raw dog will have a smaller turd and the green/kibble will be a bigger turd.

And with all that said, the next guy will go a different route and that way will be the 'right way'.

EWO

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Originally Posted by S_B

:appl:

CYJ,

I've never once thought you were steering anyone wrong in your advice. You may think your information is "outdated" I see it as you must have been before your time with feed and vitamin knowledge.

S_B

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The RF-1 will be sufficient. The lixotonic is good but I have only used it a couple of times. I'm not sold, but can't say it is good or bad. I would say 'with moderation'.

Any dog food with the protein source as fish will be suspect. It is a high density protein and although good for the dog it takes a lot of energy to convert it to fuel/used for recovery. I have seen several dogs run hot when the fish based protein was added during hard work. The chicken and chicken fat is much more easily assimilated by the dog.

Gets into the Kreb's cycle and all that science stuff. LOL. But every protein is not the same. Just like all fats are not the same. A fish oil fat is a lot different than chicken fat and/or beef fat.

The thing about horse stuff it is based on a 1000-1200 pound horse. With powders it can be really hard to break it down to a 40lb dog and still be accurate. Most are successful when they are used every third day and if one misses it will be missing a little light.

One thing about RF-1 and Lixotonic and Red Cell is it helps if the bloodwork is checked before, during and at the end of the keep. Most do not have that option. An old school way is to watch the piss. It should be mostly clear. If the supplements are ramped up and the urine darkens, it is more of a load on the body to discharge than any help being given. Lighten up on the additives.

EWO

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Originally Posted by BSK

Thanks Sir. But my questions were : since I'm using RF-1 do I need I still need the horse muscle fortifier & MSM & since I'm using Lixotinic do I still need the greens? She is eating Orien 6 fish but Im going to wean her to all raw (chicken backs & beef fat).

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Some great posts as well, EWO.

Ditto EWO on the fish meat. I gave that a whirl one time. Bought a heavy duty grinder and boxes of frozen fish. Forget the name of the fish used, was a cold water type fish and oily. Had no longer fed my dog about two weeks on this fish. Dog's coat got dull, hair brittle/ urine turned to a orange color and even stained the ground.

Seemed every fly in my area wanted to land on this dog. LOL Needless to say I quit the fish route real quick and never used another fish anything on my dogs. Salmon etc. might work up in Alaska, not in S.C. Those dog sledders on the Below Zero TV series still use Kibble dog food along with the fish they catch and dry out.

Just got off the phone with V.J. Had a good chat and he enjoyed talking with your friends awhile back. Another good article to read, about a known dog man's view of conditioning. Is Don Carter's article off the Game Dog History internet site. Title is " Was Your Dog Overworked?".

For me I had the best success with a AM and PM hand walking along with round table work. Alternated days with work on a overhead cable for the anerobic type exercise. Would love to see a dog built up to where it can recover in a anerobic state back to a aerobic state while pulling a certain amount of weight. Some things have to be observed first hand. Trying to write out everything is almost a moot point. Hands on learning is always the best way.

I use to think the way Boxers goes through their conditioning routines and the fight. Was closer to how our dogs are conditioned and shown. That was until I started watching ground and pound cage fighters. Talking with EWO on that subject. This appears to be the more correct and better over all type work plan. The ability to recover and push through in a anerobic state back to a aerobic state. Even then sooner or later that Fat Lady is going to sing for some one. Cheers

Hey guys the gyp is taking her keep well. But every time I add more than a tablespoon of chicken fat to her feed she vomits. The RF-1 is 32% fat so I guess she doesn't need any more. Some people that use RF-1 don't add anything else to the feed. What are your thoughts?

I'm a bigger fan of natural fats than fats out of a bottle or a gel-cap. With that said, it is all about what works for the particular dog you are working at the time.

Two things, usually if the fat goes over the teetering point for that particular dog doing said amount of work then the stool usually loosens up to the point they can pretty much shit thru screen wire.

Second thing is lots of times the dog will run hot. Not so much as the fat is causing it but more so too much fat and not enough protein the dog will not properly recover from day to day and even week to week.

If the dog is doing well with whatever it is you are doing, by all means stick to what is working. I do not know if I have ever seen a dog vomit because of chicken fat but I guess it happens. And it may be the reaction with something else more so than the chicken fat alone.

Best of luck.

EWO

Thanks for the response.

No problem. Keep us posted. Always something out there to learn. Most of the time the "next great thing" is stumbled upon by happen chance. Your particular combination may knock out of the park.

If something is working in a keep do not change it for the something "new and shiny". Practice and try things when your money or the dogs well being can be lost.

Don't give the other guy any more ammunition than he already has.

EWO

Right thanks again

Not that I pursue an illegal activity but I heard about a good one last night.

Guy who had not owned a dog much less did a dog since the 70's came out of retirement for his grandson. He built an old school carpet mill with stationery PVC pipe, heavy backed carpet sliding on sanded plywood. The dogs primary diet was chicken necks and soaked dog food, cheap dog food at that. He was supplemented with Bee Pollen, natural honey an hour before every work day and clovite horse conditioner. He was worked every work day on the carpet mill followed by a semi-long walk, followed by a semi-long walk dragging 25% of his body weight. Cooled, rubbed down and fed. The dog stayed outside in his normal barrel.

61 minutes. An incredible pace, plenty strong. Plenty more gas if it had been needed.

I won't post any names as I am sure it will pop up on the boards this morning. The kid had phones blowing up all over the world with is first W.

He said, what do I do? I forwarded him a message, "Sell the dog and quit now. You are ahead!"

EWO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EWO

Not that I pursue an illegal activity but I heard about a good one last night.

Guy who had not owned a dog much less did a dog since the 70's came out of retirement for his grandson. He built an old school carpet mill with stationery PVC pipe, heavy backed carpet sliding on sanded plywood. The dogs primary diet was chicken necks and soaked dog food, cheap dog food at that. He was supplemented with Bee Pollen, natural honey an hour before every work day and clovite horse conditioner. He was worked every work day on the carpet mill followed by a semi-long walk, followed by a semi-long walk dragging 25% of his body weight. Cooled, rubbed down and fed. The dog stayed outside in his normal barrel.

61 minutes. An incredible pace, plenty strong. Plenty more gas if it had been needed.

I won't post any names as I am sure it will pop up on the boards this morning. The kid had phones blowing up all over the world with is first W.

He said, what do I do? I forwarded him a message. "Sell the dog and quit now. You are ahead!"

EWO

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Haha! Great story, consistency is key. And great advice you gave him, but I got a feeling he ain't gonna take it.

S_B

This is another great topic. When I first came along the dog food was so cheap it still had feathers in the bad here and there.

Raw food was used for fish bait back then. Things have changed tremendously over the years but I doubt the dogs have evolved to the point they could not be successful on the diets of yesteryear.

Feeding for performance is one of the most interesting topics about these dogs. There are tons of way to get there and I only know a few and those too have changed a ton since I got started.

EWO