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I call it a line bred red boy/jocko dog with a jeep/redboy out.
For as the prominent dog in the gene pool after the Sire and Dam at 50%. Third dog listing in a 14 generation search is Bass' Red Boy at 435 times at 42.4%. Does not appear to be any out breeding to me.
Dogs off this breeding show out good. Try and find some good inbred Cotton's Bullet stock to cross with. There is a breeder that still has some Red Becker's inbred dogs from that line of dogs. Evolution kennels knows that breeder and may have some of those dogs.
Look at Rowell's Ringo and Young's Liz pedigrees on this site. That cross to Red Boy threw some hard mouth talented dogs. Had Wendell Martin managed to have kept Red Boy. Sure he would have made that breeding again. Those dogs came black and white and looked like old time Carver or Tacoma Doyle dogs. Our Black and white Tacoma Am staff had a quarter of the basic same breeding off Mr Teal's dog yard.
Rowell's dog and our dog looked almost identical in looks and body build. Have heard that a Bert Sorrells' bloodline crosses well with this Red Boy/Jocko blended dogs. IMHO just some thoughts of my own and some post I have read on other dog sites.
I knew Mr. Burns and Mr. Melvin Gainey personally. Both had very good dogs and IMHO considered Mr. Gainey's J.R. the better over all dog than Tant's Yellow dog. Mr. Gainey's J.R. dog was a monster from start to finish. Cheers
Gotap Im with you on that. CYJ I saw dogs down from rowell's dogs and they were good. I have my blend already though. Im with you on the Gainey's J.R. being a better producer. I believe it is him and the assassin blood that pushed these burns dogs over although burns dogs are good too, but I would lose my last nickel on these dogs gamness and ability to adapt. I just don't want to lose it by going in to tight ( not with the shonuf x lil mighty breeding).
Heard the same from Mr Burns about J.R. Bought a heavy J.R bitch from his yard....threw some good ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Ditto Stopem. Long as the dogs remain big bone and large to weight ratio. Other words no matter the show weight, still have a big boned dog at that weight. Keep breeding them as is. That is one trait those dogs are noted for. Only dogs I saw come big like that way back when was those Paladin dogs. V. Jackson told me over the phone not to long back, that Mr. Chavis told him that he never lost a match to a Paladin dog using one of his Jocko bred dogs, he used personally.
I know Mr. Chavis/Marlowe/Tant/ Mr. Gainey over time took H. Pac to the cleaners. I do not think Pac won one over them. Katie and Tant got a good financial start back then off Pac. Pac was a glutton for punishment and no sooner lose one dog show. Would be right back for more. He had some good dogs overtime but did not have the conditioning know how those seasoned dog show persons had.
I always felt that if Mr. Gainey had gotten into the dogs in his 20's. Would have made a major impact on the dog game. The short time he was active, was a excellent dog conditioner and put down some tough show dogs. The reason you do not see a lot of the last of Mr. Gainey's Jr dogs etc. Mr. Truett told me before he passed that when Mr. Gainey quit the dog game. Dug out a big hole put down the remaining dogs covered it all up and walked away.
One of the biggest mistakes I made in my time in the dogs. Was not breeding my Young's Winchester dog to my Young's Face bitch. I saw Winchester's sibling brother take a killing from Mr. Gainey's Eight Ball dog. Mr. Gainey's Eight Ball was my Face bitches sibling brother. Starting to digress off this subject way to much. Sorry, Cheers
Your digression is always welcome, and always worth the read.
Although basically the same ingredients the Gainey dogs we saw back then were superior to the Burns dogs. At the show they were in super condition. Agreed if he were in the game longer his impact would have been much larger. I too heard the story of some top notch dogs being put down when he got out. It was said, "When he got out, he got out".
I saw three or four from Mr. Burns yard. They all quit. That does not mean they were all sub par but it sort of made it hard to run out and get one. The Jocko-Red Boy dogs did well for a number of people. Seen a few good ones down thru Waccammaw.
Nowadays it is hard to make a call as not many straight Jocko-Red Boy dogs around. They seem to be added as a crossed or something else crossed in.
Great series of posts.
EWO
Man, I enjoy the knowledge. Im new to the breeding game. Ive always been a keep person and eyeing and buying one. Ive read the hollingsworth book front to back, studied alot of breeding schemes, and have a few greats in my corner like the deacon, garth, bbc, lockjaw to name a few.
Ditto EWO, you hung around a lot longer than I did. You would know the real hard facts of what was what. Thank you as well for sharing.
In a little more detail, Mr. Truett said many of those dogs that Mr. Gainey put down were some of the best well tested stock he had culled through. Mr. Truett said he wished he could have bought some of them. No doubt Mr. Gainey could have got top dollar from some of those dogs.
IMHO, with the age Mr. Gainey was at. He was in a special forces of paratroopers that landed behind the German lines at Normandy. So had to be in his late 70's. Two of his sons were a big help in the working of his dogs. Was my understanding one of those sons got killed. With that grief to bear,could have been another reason to step away from the game. Some dog men would rather just put what is left of their dogs down than see them abused by other less competent dog persons that may be more partial to their own personnel dogs.
I do not think Mr. Gainey lived much longer after getting out of the dogs. Mr. Truett told me,while out with a friend at a Hardees ordering a breakfast. His friend went to get their coffee. Came back to his seat. Mr. Gainey looked to have just went to sleep. Had passed quietly without a sound. Mr. Gainey with a dog he worked and believed in. Could have gave ole Earl Tudor a run for his money. Cheers
Ditto Stopem. If I was younger, know what I know from past experience and the ways things are today. Would just do the extra serious keeps and one dog show pulls at a time. Lot less expensive, have time for some other hobbies and family. To many yard dogs can put a big ole target on your back and wear you out mentally and financial to boot. LOL
Lot easier to explain one dog or so than twenty or more. I have had as many as fifty dogs counting puppies. Was no family time,no vacation time and no weekends off. Something always to do every day. Worse than running a dairy farm, at least most dairy farms are profitable. LOL
Reckon I too was like H. Pac a glutton for punishment. LOL Cheers
Lol. Believe me i know the feeling. Im looking for a dog sitter now so i can go on vacation. At the same time im breeding 9 females this spring. Ive actually found a new hobby that has me fending ( lack of better word) to see if i can achieve greatness and thats breeding my own dogs. I have two solid lines to work with, Crew's Rocky and Burns' Humdinger base dogs.
I don't have near as many as I once did. When my boy 8-14 the dogs faded as he was into everything. Baseball from Feb. to Oct/Nov. Football from July til November. Wrestling from November til spring. Every weekend was a baseball tournament or a wrestling meet. Mixed in a couple years of Brazilian Jui Jitsu. I just did not have time for the dogs and his activities at the same time.
I went from 25 plus down to 5 or six thru that stretch. Of that 25 plus were very few I bred. It was always about working and doing the dogs. I tried to keep 6-8 that were match ready and the rest were looking to take one of those 6-8 spots. I gave away a lot of game, less talented dogs in order to make a chain spot for the next.
Looking back I should have concentrated on breeding more of those good dogs. It was just so much easier to let someone else worry with broods and studs and puppies. Hind sight being 20/20 I guess.
We did not do a lot of vacationing but I can remember it was really hard to find someone to feed, water and rake when we played out of town tournaments. Same with finding someone for a vacation. The dogs can eat up every minute of your time it seems.
EWO
I'm not going to say either family really needs the other but I have seen a trend the last couple-three years with the Mims/Jocko-Red Boy cross. Slightly heavier Mims Snooty-Red Boy dogs to Triple AAA dogs. Another is Termite type dogs to the Mims family.
The dogs' work ethic is amazing. The kind you have to understand when to stop because they won't. They are tireless. Their intensity ramps up. The brains factor makes a jump. The roughness and durability is there and not only can they shut it down they can shut it down all night.
I'm sure each family has that on their own but seeing some W's pop up quite often with that blend.
EWO
Quote:
Originally Posted by stopem
Ditto EWO. When Andy Howle worked the V. Jackson's Hank dog for the first dog show against R. Byrd's pride and joy Arizona Red. I loaned him my original made Colby carpet mill. This thing was not easy for a dog to work. I quit using it over time.
I went over a few weeks later to see Andy and how things were progressing. Andy told me, I had to start hand walking that Hank dog and let him pull a car alternator across the farm fields.
I asked was their any problems. He said no matter how hard I work this dog on that Colby mill,he never gets really tired, tongue will not come out of his mouth most of the time. LOL That Hank dog did have a lot of natural stamina and endurance. Cheers