is there a routine to doing this and regrow for show day?
Pros and cons?
Tips?
Thanks in advance.
is there a routine to doing this and regrow for show day?
Pros and cons?
Tips?
Thanks in advance.
Dogs are shaved for cosmetic reasons.
Not sure if it is the knowledge or experience you spoke of....but went to a show one night and a camp/combine brought three. All three were shaved up the spine, maybe a three inch strip. I had never seen it and just had to ask.
I was told it was done for two reasons. One it had a cooling effect on the dog. I couldn't see the logic in it that night and to this day can't see it being a viable means for a dog to stay cool or provide any extra cooling. Second, was a tingling/awakening effect when rubbed the against the grain. Like after a fresh hair cut and rubbing your hand against the grain. Maybe, but I sort of didn't see that one either.
Another guy told me it was more to make stupid people ask stupid questions. Maybe I fell for it. EWO
Three reasons, to cool the dog, to shed some weight and to give the opponent an unfamiliar feeling in their mouth when they take a hold. Generally they are shaved in the backend, legs, belly and sides with the backbone covered with hair. Or they could be like EWO mentioned, each dogman does it differently.
S_B
Can imagine its being done for cooling on rough coated dogs in hot weather.
Iv been taking a shaver to show once or twice, in case some one was going to whine about 20 gram overweight.
Like you EWO, I can't see the logic. The shaved dogs I saw, during the summer, still ran hot. How do you determine the level of cooling it actually does? It's simple in that you can't actually quantify how much it works. I've been around some people shaving a dog to make weight. It never happened. They were still over and still paid the FF.
It always goes back to cosmetic reasons, FOR ME. There is no benefit to shaving a dog.
Ch.Beetlejuice was shaving for his 3rd when he came from Canada to Chicago during the summer. He still ran hot as blue blazes.
You can shed an 1/8 to 1/2 lb by shaving depending on the coat density of the dog. If folks were still over it was because they didn't call their weight correctly. Same thing rings true with running hot.
It has nothing to do with cosmetics.
S_B
We shave damn near everything that we bring to the [ ]. We shave everything from the base of the head down. The only reason that is effective is to lose more weight. We have shaved everything from thick coated/long hair/55lb males to little 30lb gyps with thin coats and have never ever gotten 1/2lb off. The most we have gotten was 6oz and the majority of the time it is between 3-5oz.
IMO there is a benifit. If my dog weighs 37 at weigh in after i took 5oz of hair off of him and your dog is 37 with a full coat. My dog should be a 5oz bigger dog as far as weight is concerned. That 5oz whether it is solid mass of fluid should be something extra that my dog can burn that your dog can't. This is just my belief on the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
Running hot is a complex subject.
Fur is on a dog to keep it warm. Dogs cannot sweat. A dog with fur-on is going to be warmer than a dog with fur-off.
Still, that said, running hot has nothing to do with fur, lol.
Running hot is some combination of "actual temperature" ... as well as condition, blood chemistry, all capped-off with whether the dog is relaxed or stressed.
Temperature affects how long a dog can go;
Condition affects how long a dog can go;
Blood chemistry affects how long a dog can go;
How relaxed/poised vs. amped/nervous the dog is affects how long ago.
Of all these critical factors, whether or not a dog is "shaved" or not is of next-to-ZERO actual benefit IMO.
A shaved dog with shitty blood will still run hot;
A shaved dog in terrible shape will still run hot;
A shaved dog that burns-up all its energy (and/or is full of anxiety) will still run hot.
In the end, a relaxed, poised dog, in shape, and with good blood, will be long-winded with the hair God gave it.
Jack
PS: Can't think of a single all-time-great dog that needed to be matched, shaved :idea:
:-bdQuote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
You guys are missing the question here. Not asking why shave on show day but asking why during/for a keep.
Here is my guess before I head to bed,
When hosing him/her down after workouts(between sets or after hard sets) to cool down that's when the shaving helps more with cooling basically helps with KEEPS during hot weather. It can also be a method to seeing how the bulldog results are looking throughout his/her keep or 3/4 keep. The fur will regrow on show day. (Weigh daily of course and No shave for show)
About shaving for the show, if bulldog is shaved for show he/she will stay cooler but IF goes to scratching getting wash the furless will dry quicker than the one with fur thus by making the furless the less cooler one now. Cons on furless will have less armor. If no scratch, Pros he'll be the cooler one. Cons will be the same as having less armor no matter what. :idea: But to me shaving for show isn't needed and is not important in this case.
And yeah on show day some do it for cosmetic purposes not aware of the pros/cons, this we'll leave aside. Lol now let's dig deeper into shaving during keep.
Ok i totally missed what you were getting at. I have never heard of someone shaving during a keep. For the reasons that you presented it makes no sense to me at all to do it in the keep.
I agree with Gotap_d, never ever heard of shaving a dog for this reason at all. The shaving would be just before the contest for the reasons already stated.
Climate let's entertain your theory for just a moment as far as cooling in keep like you described. If your dog was use to being cooled that way all keep long then you changed at the end of the keep, wouldn't that defeat the purpose?
Furthermore it would be silly to make easier during keep what is going to be harder in a contest. JM2cents!
S_B
I would just like to add the logic behind your purposed method seems ass backwards to me.
I'll say in my simple terms why...look at boxers or MMA fighters, when they are going to fight in an environment different than where they live what do they do? They go to that environment to train so that their bodies and their conditioning can adjust. High altitudes for example would be detrimental to a fighter that trained in a low altitude gym.
So taking something away that you think makes training cooler or easier is no different in my mind.
S_B
S_B ty for your opinion.
Only the one who's done it knows. I know for a fact TCF does it for many reasons not only for cosmetic. He shave every single one he put in keep. (The Tcf keep)
So I'm trying to hear from ones that have done it or a logic behind it.
The Chosen Few shaved his dog, Tito Trinidad when he faced Ch Vengence (and he also came in a pound heavy).
It did not help TCF achieve his desired end, either in having a shaved dog, or in bringing the 2-lb bigger dog, to win the fight.
IMO, shaving dogs is one of those things "some people do" that has no bearing on anything.
In the end, some people do things that are effective; some things people do things that are a detriment; and some people do things which are ultimately ignorant superstitions that don't actually do a thing.
At best, shaving dogs would be categorized as the latter.
Jack
Arnt we trying to give small /minuscule edges to our dogs in keep and for show all the time? Even if it just makes U feel better in your head? lol.
Its not that black and white. Everyone understands that it doesnt prevent a dog from running hot at all.
Lol, superstition does make people feel better (I know, I have OCD :))Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Honestly though, I would think shaving a dog would make its skin more sensitive/vulnerable.
The armor-factor would concern me more than "overheating" does.
If you breed long-winded dogs, you don't have to worry about it when things go awhile ;)
As far as the "weight" goes, I didn't say anything before, but there is NO WAY that "dog hair" weighs half-a-pound :rotflmao:
It very likely weighs less than an ounce ...
Jack
IMHO it’s a waste of time.
I have seen it done, it’s like most things in keep, and you want to establish and maintain consistency. If you are going to shave him/her the day of the race, it makes since to do it through the keep. So you know if you are shaving 3 ounces vs a half pound off the poor dog. I am pretty damn sure, you could shave a bulldog down from his head to his nuts and never get close to a half pound of one.
People develop their own methods and superstitions, some steeped in experince other in tradition. Six in one half dozen in the other, at the end of the day, I don’t think it hurts anything other than his pride.
I am just not going to look at my dog looking like he got ahold of my hair clippers. Really if it’s the very hair on his back that keeps him on the end of a chain, I am thinking I have bigger fish to fry.
Overheating is ALLWAYS a function of conditioning. It is going to happen; it is more of a function of when. Words to the wise athletes make a HARD distinction between “conditioning” and “training”….
The only way to accurately answer how much a dog's hair will weigh when shaven is to weigh it like Gotap_d has done and the dogmen who practiced this method that I know and asked to make a response to this post.
Also think about this, how does a woman's prickly leg, or something else feels in your mouth when she is not clean shaven? :idea: :lol:
To think dog hair is armour against the pearly whites is kind of laughable to me, protection from the elements yes.
S_B
I will call anyone who says dog hair weighs 0.5 lb a liar.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
To think hair not a form of protection is laughable to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
My face is a lot more protected with a beard than without.
There is also a sense of irritation, and extra sensitivity right after a shave, that I do not have with a growth of beard.
Jack
I tend to agree with you on this, that is a stretch. I know some of the dogs that were shaven had rough, long wavy hair. I'd lean more to what Gotap_d said 3-5 oz. just based on pure common sense. I've never weighed the hair to make a 100% factual statement though.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I personally have never been so technical to need every ounce of weight to use as an advantage. I was never in that lane and never will be. But I know men who were in their day and it is fascinating to discuss their methods of gaining even the smallest of advantages, whether scientifically or just in their mind.
S_B
Jack I would not dispute that with you, sure coarse beard hair will offer much protection for your face. Our dog's hair would be more comparable in my mind to our head, arm or leg hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Shaving a dog down as I've witnessed was not with a razor blade, but with a guard on an electric razor. Like when a dog is prepared for surgery, a vet shaves the hair (they do use a razor on the belly tho) I'm not sure which # guard but if I remember correctly it is a 10 which leaves a stubble.
S_B
If 5 ounces plays THAT much of a part in a quality dog, then that's just sad. How many times are dogs schooled with 1-3lb bigger dogs, quality dogs, and do quite well. Five ounces doesn't make the dog any better or give it any bigger chance of winning. It is simply five ounces. It is not uncommon for dogs to be ounces more, or less, than their opponent. While I do tend to echo your sentiment about something I have your dog doesn't (paraphrasing), it's generally the better dog, 5 ounces or not, that does the winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
I've never seen five ounces make any significant change in a show's outcome personally.
If you need to lose 1/2 a pound, it's because you didn't call the weight correctly to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
Whatever factor hair has in running hot is very minimal at best.
Again, cosmetic OR not able to call the right weight OR silly superstition. Thought I'd toss that out there in light of other comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
#1 I never said 5oz plays THAT much of a part in a quality dog but it IS AN ADVANTAGE.
#2 You are right it isnt uncommon for dogs to be a few ounces over or under their opponent and quite frankly it isnt uncommon to have dogs 1/2lb to 1lb over or under their opponents weight but that dosent mean the smaller dog isnt still at a disadvantage.
That is incorrect thinking. Shaving a dog for weight purposes only needs to be done once and it will be near the end of the keep.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOSES
There are two reasons someone would shave a dog for weight purposes. The 1st is the day of the race they see that they wont make weight and start shaving their dog to get off whatever they can. The 2nd way is what i do and it is for an advantage. For example lets say im bringing in a 40lb male and he is sitting at 41-1/2 a week out. I already know how much feed and water to gelive the rest of the keep and come show night i will be 40lbs on the nose. I'll empty my dog out and weigh him he weighs 41-1/2 then i shave him and he weighs 41.3 i removed 5oz of hair. If i continue with the current feed plan i will fall under weight on show night so the food and water intake is adjusted accordingly. Show night comes and i still fall dead on 40lbs but i was able to give my dog more food/fluids than i would have been able to had he not been shaved. It may not seem like a big deal but it is an advantage. If you bring Gr Ch Buck and hook into my Gr Ch Buck with identical keeps but my Buck weighs 5oz bigger I would win.
Not necessarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
1) Who says dog hair weighs 5 oz?
2) The idea that a 5-oz advantage of two otherwise identical individuals = a 100% success guarantee is insane.
3) You cannot ever be guaranteed to able to beat yourself, twice in a row. The other "you" has the same chance.
Jack
I shave my my dogs front legs the day before the deal to better expose the vein that i am going to hook a line into after the deal "if needed" All this other stuff about shaving is quite laughable to me A Bulldog is gonna be a Bulldog bald or with fur period !!
With all things being equal except the weight i believe it does equal a 100% success rate. Even if if doesn't it is still an advantage. Jack if you were fighting your self with the same training and a 15lb weight advantage that it would be an even matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
misleading yourself from this post is quite laughable to me. Before you laugh out of no where awkwardly, read and understand this post carefully. No one said anything about making a bulldog with or without fur and if you didn't know, you were suppose to have a bulldog in hand to bet with.Quote:
Originally Posted by bullyson
I can't see the benefit but that's just me. If hair weighs a couple of ounces, (which I think might be a stretch but I have never weighed hair, or weighed a dog pre- then post- shave. So for that my knowledge is limited). Since lots of people use digital scales now maybe a couple three ounces can be helpful in making weight. I will admit last Feb. we saw one pay the forfeit at 39.1 and maybe a good haircut prevents that from happening. When they did the dogs anyway I can't see where there was a bunch of difference between the 38.9 and the 39.1. (Did I say I dislike digital scales?, but that is a different topic altogether)
In one of my very first posts I made a point and I will make it again here. If a guy shaved his dog and he won then odds are he will shave the next one, even if it had little to do with the good performance. If he wins again with a shaved dog then he has developed his way. Let him teach that way to another and if the other wins then you would be hard pressed to convince them otherwise.
I made the point about feed, if a guy is winning feeding corn flakes and cabbage, anyone, board members included, will have a hard time convincing him otherwise.
EWO
:appl:Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
Perfectly said EWO, it is a strategy that a handler/conditioner come up with that they feel gives them a slight edge because of exactly what you just said.
You are insane to think a 5 oz weight advantage = a 100% success rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
Do you have the same running score every time?
How about the same weight lift results? Every time?
How about when you play a game? Same score every time?
You have different capabilities each day, hell each hour, and so would your mirror opposite.
To think that the adding of a mere 5 oz would slide the scale to from 50-50 to a 100% success rate is daft, at best, if not insane.
A 5 oz advantage :rotflmao:Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
A 15 lb advantage is significant ... a 48x more significant advantage than a 5 oz advantage ... but even this is not a 100% guarantee of success.Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
Ever heard of David and Goliath?
It's all about ODDS ... a 5 oz advantage is negligible ... a 15 lb advantage would dramatically change the odds, but yet still not guarantee success.
Jack
Anyone who doesn't think any weight differenve is an advantage with ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL is insane. All things equal if you're 100% your mirror is 100%. If dog A has a slight cold his mirror has a slight cold. Track runner #1 runs a 4 minute mile today his mirror runs a 4 minute mile today.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Your laughing at a 5oz advantage. Thats fine laugh at all the dogmen who take the forfeit and run when the other dog is over 5oz. They must believe they are at a disadvantage.
And i brought up a 15lb difference to illustrate an example using humans not dogs.
Yes i have heard of david and goliath. What does that have to do with what we are talking about? Nothing because they ARE NOT MIRRORS of each other. Two different people with different skill sets and different weapons.
It was a good topic but i think the dead horse is being beaten. I've stated my OPINION and enjoyed the discussion. Thats all i have to say.
Huh ???
Gotap_d I respectfully disagree with you, but to each his own, no harm no foul on my end. However, riddle me this. If a conditioner takes the time to put a hound on a scale twice a day, weighing his feed, and regulating his water, for 8-10 weeks, why would you change anything at the last minute? That makes zero since to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
I have two full grown Akitas (90 and 110 lbs) and I could guess what 5 oz of hair looks like, and I don’t see that coming off of 40 lb bulldog.
:-tREALLY! If you think that 5 oz of hair is going to be difference maker in a hound’s performance, more power to you. If I bring ANYTHING and 5 oz stands between me and a win, I would seriously have to reconsider my position on a whole lot of things.
I have won more than once with what I thought was an inferior hound, not because I shaved him down to his nuts chasing 5 oz. I don’t care what “lane” you are in it boils down to conditioning. Bringing the bigger dog is as much science as it is an art when it comes to conditioning, and then their still is not guarantee that you are fielding the bigger hound.
Assume for a minute that you have two equally matched opponents in all areas; the athlete in superior condition will win the majority of the time.
You don't have the ability to say the same thing twice and keep your thoughts consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
You first said you thought a 5 oz advantage was a 100% guarantee of success.
Now you're saying it's "an advantage" =;
Well, no shit, I already agreed it was an advantage ... a 5 oz advantage :lol: :rolleyes:
You're, not your.Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
Just because some dogmen run over 5 oz doesn't mean anything.
Other dogmen push weight and win.
I agree weight matters, when it's significant; we just disagree that 5 oz is "significant."
You also have yet to prove that shaved dog hair = 5 oz, which I doubt very much, so I think "shaving hair" is even less significant.
In addition to having trouble with concepts, you also have trouble with proportions and math.Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
15 lb = 48x greater than 5 oz
(1lb = 16 oz x 15 = 240 oz)
240/5 = 48
The average pit dog is 40 lb.
The average human fighter around 160.
This means the average person is 4x the size of the average dog (not 48x the size).
This means you are exaggerating to make a point, so let's bring you back down to reality.
If the average man is 4x the size of the average dog, then you multiply 5 oz x 4 which would = 20 oz (1.25 lb).
This means your big 5 oz "advantage" in a 40 lb bulldog is equal to a 1.25 lb (20 oz) advantage in a middleweight (160 lb) human, which again isn't shit.
Even the same two people would be different. You are different now from what you were yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
If you played a computer game twice, you would make different choices and get different scores.
As with your lack of understanding of everything else, you're not understanding this concept.
People are not robots who do the same things every time; they are different every single day.
Well, it is a good topic, but when you actually THINK about it, and use facts, 1) no one has yet to prove what dog hair weighs, and even if it weighs 5 ounces, which I very much doubt, it still doesn't do shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by gotap_d
I do agree that weight is significant, when the amount of weight is significant.
But 5 oz isn't shit to a dog (and I still don't think dog hair even weighs 5 oz).
The best middleweight human fighters are not going to win/lose over a 1.25 lb difference in weight, and the best 40 lb dogs are not going to win/lose over 5 oz either.
Other factors will make the difference.
Jack