A FUN TOPIC HEAD SIZE BIG, SMALL OR MEDIUM WHAT IS YOUR PREFERENCE ?

The post of the letter made me go and look thru my old box of correspondents and I found a letter back from 1979 from a prominent dog man that is still out there today. When I started reading it he was talking about head size and even was advertising it in his ads, he stated a bigger head covered more body area which at the time sounded logical. He also said big head big bite even with a handful of years under me I knew that was not right. I could go on about my own thoughts but I would like to hear yours from the BULLDOG FRATERNITY out there, P.S. I really did not care what the size of the head was I was more interested in what was going on in that head, he still breeds bulldogs and the last time I seen his stock they still have really big heads. JOHNNY

I like those small (wedge) heads with a long slender muzzle :D

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Originally Posted by S_B

I like those small (wedge) heads with a long slender muzzle :D

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Small fast and accurate = deadly.

irrelevant to me
can he do what i want him to do?
it's all i care about

bigger heads gas out faster and my hardest biting dog had a tiny head

I have always wondered about this too. It seems like the consensus is that a bigger head does not equate to better performance or a harder bite. Some old timers say that a dog bites hard because he/she wants too, regardless of head size or shape, idk. In regards to efficiency and cooling, could a bigger head, mouth, tongue, nose help??? By the way NQK, have a young male out of your Roxie bitch and he has a little longer snout. I think he is the bees knees. He is littermate to Cody's Gator boy.

I like bulldogs. So all else being equal I'll take one that looks more bulldog than birddog.

I personally could care less about the size of a dogs head, I've always believed that a dog bites hard because he wants to. I've seen it both ways.. Big headed dogs that would and wouldn't bite hard and the same with narrow headed dogs with longer snouts. Bulldog first, everything else is a bonus.

I think the structure of a bulldog is all about advantages. A smaller head vs a larger one weighs less and I think it is to my advantage to have a bigger dog so I'd rather have one tall and lean with a sleek head vs a bowling ball of a head and be the smaller dog because of it.

I agree we all want t bulldogs to look like bulldogs, I'll say this I've never seen a pin headed bulldog I thought looked like a bird dog not once! :)

S_B

Wouldn't a thin nosed/ smaller headed dog be more susceptible to nose bites/breaks? Ive had a couple of pencil head dogs and they just seemed fragile.

I wouldn't say Nazi had a pin head by any means and he lost his muzzle. I don't think size equates to durability.

I prefer a long muzzle, what size cranium it is attatched to doesn't matter to me.

I really dont give a damn. A big head looks nice.

No! Nazi was not pin headed by almeans.. I would go with average... Maybe slightly above... I have tons of pictures of that animal.... Anyway I have always liked dog's that looked like Gr.Ch.banjo...his build and head size was nice!

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Originally Posted by arsuffi@att.net

The post of the letter made me go and look thru my old box of correspondents and I found a letter back from 1979 from a prominent dog man that is still out there today. When I started reading it he was talking about head size and even was advertising it in his ads, he stated a bigger head covered more body area which at the time sounded logical. He also said big head big bite even with a handful of years under me I knew that was not right. I could go on about my own thoughts but I would like to hear yours from the BULLDOG FRATERNITY out there, P.S. I really did not care what the size of the head was I was more interested in what was going on in that head, he still breeds bulldogs and the last time I seen his stock they still have really big heads. JOHNNY

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Balance is the key to everything.

Most big-headed dogs *can't* bite hard ... they also carry more weight in their head and so will be smaller for their size. (S_B mentioned this).

On the other hand, you don't want a fragile, thin-faced dog either.

However, I would say, of the hardest biters I've had, they were a little on the average/thin-headed side. A little.

And yes, such dogs are faster-mouthed.

I mean, it's basic physics. a big slow thing won't move as fast as a smaller, more nimble thing.

Most of the hardest biters were average-headed dogs.

What are we considering average, big, or small? Zebo, Boomerang, Queen of Hearts, Shady Lady, Banjo, Bad Rosemary. That, s some serious mouth. All of these dogs were atleast what I consider average. If not large headed dogs. It looks like maybe Chinaman had a little bit smaller head. Who are some other legends with great mouth that had small heads?

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Originally Posted by wolverine

What are we considering average, big, or small? Zebo, Boomerang, Queen of Hearts, Shady Lady, Banjo, Bad Rosemary. That, s some serious mouth. All of these dogs were atleast what I consider average. If not large headed dogs. It looks like maybe Chinaman had a little bit smaller head. Who are some other legends with great mouth that had small heads?

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Not sure what you're looking at, but Bad Rosemary's head was rather small compared to her neck and body, as was Shady Lady, who looked almost pin-headed to me.

The Queen had an average head IMO, but certainly wasn't bucket-headed or exaggerated in her head size. Zebo was also about average for a male.

Banjo had a pretty good-sized nugget on him, I agree, but Boomerang had an average (to slightly below-average) sized head on him, for a male, IMO. I do agree that Chinaman's head was smaller than average.

Therefore, of the 7 hard-mouthed dogs you yourself just mentioned, I would consider 1 (Banjo) to have an above-average sized head, 2 (Zebo/Queen) to have average-sized heads, and 4 (Boomer, Bad Rosemary, Shady Lady, and Chinaman) to have below-average sized heads ... which falls exactly in line with what I just finished saying above: " ..of the hardest biters I've had, they were a little on the average/thin-headed side. A little."

Jack

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Not sure what you're looking at, but Bad Rosemary's head was rather small compared to her neck and body, as was Shady Lady, who looked almost pin-headed to me.

The Queen had an average head IMO, but certainly wasn't bucket-headed or exaggerated in her head size. Zebo was also about average for a male.

Jack

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JACK I agree, this is just my opinion with all things being equal it is neck and shoulder size on most all hard biting bulldogs that are common. When I saw these dogs up close GR.CH.VIRGIL, GIROUX' SUNDAY, STROTHER'S LUTHER, and many more the common denominator was their neck and shoulder size to their body. Genetics probably had a lot to do with this. When watching them in action they all had a unique way of planting their feet and tensing the whole body up, that's when you knew damage was being done. JOHNNY

Those dogs would not be considered below average based on the dogs i've been around. Who are some examples of dogs you thought had big heads?

Then we simply disagree as to what we're looking at

Poncho had a much bigger head, proportionately, than every dog you mentioned ... and was average mouthed.

Big, small, medium. It's All relative. What I consider big the next guy may consider small. But from what I'm used to those are good sized noggins. Didn't Realize ol poncho had it like that. Just Uploaded a new pic of Shady Lady.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

Big, small, medium. It's All relative. What I consider big the next guy may consider small. But from what I'm used to those are good sized noggins. Didn't Realize ol poncho had it like that. Just Uploaded a new pic of Shady Lady.

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Well, the Hollingsworth dogs all had truly massive heads, and it was not a biting line.

4 out of 7 of the hard-mouthed dogs you posted were average-sized (at best), and 2 of those were almost pin-headed and couldn't even be called average.

2 more were only average, and nowhere near "big-headed" at all.

The only dog (1 out of 7) that had anything passed an average-sized head was Banjo, and his head was not quite as as big as Poncho's, not IMO.

Jack

If shady lady and bad Rosemary have pin heads than 70% of the breed is below average. Which isn't possible. Half of the pics I see from the conformation shows look like whippets compared to those two.
All of the males had heads as big as poncho. Banjos looks bigger to me.
Lonzos dogs had pretty big heads. And they could bite. Alligator looked to have descent size head as well. In the end it doesent fucking matter. But all the dogs I listed had atleast an average sized head. I don't. Give a shit what anybody says.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

If shady lady and bad Rosemary have pin heads than 70% of the breed is below average.

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Learn to read.

I said Shady had almost a pin head; I never called Bad Rosemary pin-headed.

Bad Rosemary has a very thick body, but a slightly-small head in comparison to her robust body. Rosemary's head is certainly not "big," not by a longshot.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

Which isn't possible.

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Again, learn to read.

I only said that about Shady, whose head not only isn't big, it's not even average. It's below average.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

Half of the pics I see from the conformation shows look like whippets compared to those two.

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Now you're scrambling.

We were talking about the hardest-biting dogs ever.

I made the statement that the hardest-biting dogs I have ever seen were a little on the average/thin-headed side. A little.

You came on here and listed 7 dogs and claimed their heads were "at least" average to slightly larger than average.

The FACT of the matter is, 6 out of 7 of the dogs you posted had average (to below average) head-size, exactly in line with what I said, while only 1 (Banjo) had a larger than average head.

You've essentially proven my point, not your own.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

All of the males had heads as big as poncho. Banjos looks bigger to me.

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Boomer and Chinaman, no way in hell their heads were as large as Poncho's.

Zebo's might be comparable, they have a similar shape actually, although that third pic of him it looks pretty small.

We disagree on Banjo.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

Lonzos dogs had pretty big heads. And they could bite. Alligator looked to have descent size head as well.

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You're blind dude. Alligator was a big dog with a SLIM head, not a "decent-sized" head ...

Poncho's son, Gr Ch Zukill had a big head, MUCH wider than his neck, Alligator's head-size is slim compared that, proportionally.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

In the end it doesent fucking matter.

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If it doesn't matter, why are you getting so upset?

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Originally Posted by wolverine

But all the dogs I listed had a tleast an average sized head. I don't. Give a shit what anybody says.

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Your original argument was for BIG heads, so don't backstep down to "average" all of a sudden ;)

I said that the hardest-mouthed dogs I have seen were average-headed, to slightly smaller than average, so if you want to (now) say that "the hardest-mouthed dogs are AVERAGE headed," you're essentially agreeing with me ;)

Jack

Eli Jr and Bullyson don't seem to have big heads either.

Boudreaux' Boss, his daughter Bulldog Ranch's Ch. Tuffy, Aries Kennels Poncho Sun and his littermate Ironson. They all had heads that impressed.

My reading comprehension skills are pretty on point. However I think you could probably follow some of your own advice. Considering I clearly said Chinaman had a smaller head. And I said the rest were at least what I consider average. If not slightly above. You also said boomer rose and shady all had below average heads origionally. And that poncho at a much bigger head than all of them proportionally. now you say zebos might be comparable. Which were some backpedals of your own. I don't think head size has any bearing on how well a dog will perform overall. However I do think that most dogs with heavy mouth have at least an average sized head. We are basically in agreement. I just feel it's average to slightly above. In most cases. And if zu kill had a big head it kinda goes toward proving that.

I don't care about the size of the dogs head. I don't have show dogs��

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Originally Posted by wolverine

My reading comprehension skills are pretty on point. However I think you could probably follow some of your own advice. Considering I clearly said Chinaman had a smaller head.

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You started out saying Chinaman had a small head, then you said "all the dogs I mentioned had at least an average sized head. If not larger."

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Originally Posted by wolverine

And I said the rest were at least what I consider average. If not slightly above.

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No, that's not what you said; THIS is what you said:

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Originally Posted by wolverine

Zebo, Boomerang, Queen of Hearts, Shady Lady, Banjo, Bad Rosemary. That, s some serious mouth. All of these dogs were atleast what I consider average. If not large headed dogs. It looks like maybe Chinaman had a little bit smaller head.

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Then I SHOWED YOU that Bad Rosemary's head was rather small compared to her neck and body, as was Shady Lady, who looked almost pin-headed to me.

There is no way anyone with eyes to see can call Shady "large-headed," but you did. (See 1st quote above, your words.)

Then you said,

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Originally Posted by wolverine

If shady lady and bad Rosemary have pin heads than 70% of the breed is below average.

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I never called Bad Rosemary "pinheaded," so YES, your reading comprehension needs serious help. (I only said that about Shady.)

I will again re-quote myself about the rest, so maybe it can sink-in if you read it the second time:

I also said The Queen had an average head IMO, but certainly wasn't bucket-headed or exaggerated in her head size.

I said Zebo was also about average for a male.

We did agree that Banjo had a pretty good-sized nugget on him.

I stated Boomerang had an average (to slightly below-average) sized head on him, for a male, IMO. Again, there is no fogging way Boomer had a "large" head for a male.

And we also agree that Chinaman's head was somewhat smaller than average.

So again, for the slow, of the 7 hard-mouthed dogs you yourself just mentioned, only 1 (Banjo) had what could be called a "large" head for his size
2 (Zebo/Queen) had average-sized heads
and 4 (Boomer, Bad Rosemary, and especially Shady Lady, and Chinaman) had average to below-average sized heads.

Only 1 dog on your list had what could be described as a "large" head.
Is there anything about that you don't understand, or can twist in some way?

Once again, I never said Bad Rosemary was pin-headed.

You not only mis-quote me, you can't even remember what you say yourself.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

You also said boomer rose and shady all had below average heads origionally.

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And I still do say that, genius :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by wolverine

And that poncho at a much bigger head than all of them proportionally. now you say zebos might be comparable. Which were some backpedals of your own.

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I agreed that Zebo had the same head SHAPE as Poncho, and one photo it looked comparable, and the rest not at all. In fact, here was your own backpedaling comment when you saw Poncho's head.

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Didn't Realize ol poncho had it like that.

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Which was basically an, "Oh shit, I was wrong," statement.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

I don't think head size has any bearing on how well a dog will perform overall. However I do think that most dogs with heavy mouth have at least an average sized head. We are basically in agreement. I just feel it's average to slightly above. In most cases. And if zu kill had a big head it kinda goes toward proving that.

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Again, you have some serious comprehension issues.

I did not say head size affects how a dog performs, so where are you pulling that new tangent out of? :confused:

The subject was BITING, not performance, they're two completely different subjects :idea:

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Originally Posted by wolverine

However I do think that most dogs with heavy mouth have at least an average sized head. We are basically in agreement. I just feel it's average to slightly above. In most cases.

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You're like a broken record ... so let's just agree to disagree.

My own position is that, in MOST cases, the truly hard-biting dogs are average to SLIGHTLY below-average in head-size, not average to "large-headed" dogs ...

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Originally Posted by wolverine

And if zu kill had a big head it kinda goes toward proving that.

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Zukill was a finisher, not a freak-biter, which (again) is a completely different topic. He would go in the guts, and the throat, and had FREAK BODY & NECK STRENGTH (not freak mouth).

Stormbringer also had a larger-than-average noggin, but again he was not a "freak biter," what he had was also FREAK BODY & NECK STRENGTH and was a finisher in the throat. And I think finish + body/neck strength are more important traits than mouth.

Hope this clarifies,

Jack