Running Bulldogs In A Pack

Hello folks! I haven't been around here a whole lot for the last little while, and when I have checked in, I haven't posted much. I have however, been quite active with my dogs as of late. I actually have been amazed at what I have accomplished with the 5 dogs I currently have on the yard.

I have always had intelligent dogs, but we as dog people tend to get stuck in ruts of kennel management that severely limit our dogs' potential. I am no different. We learn early that the responsible thing as bulldog owners is to keep them apart, especially when the marks of even accidental contact could be used to trump up "dogfighting" charges. I kept feeling more and more, that I need to create an environment of healthy social interaction amongst my dogs. What if all of the rules were thrown out the window? I wondered. Then I decided that's exactly what I would do.

One thing I learned a long time ago, is that fight crazy never equated with gameness or talent. My first match dog; who won quick and then lost in over 2:30, was the kind of dog that hung around with Labs, Rottweilers, and Cocker Spaniels.That's the kind of dog experience I wanted to get back to, but how to do it? I knew it had much more to do with me than the dogs. One by one, two by two, I started cutting dogs loose, allowing them to interact in a positive way. There's a lot to it, and this has built up over the last 6 or 7 months, but there's now 5 dogs running together in a pack. I have fully established myself as leader of the pack, and have even introduced dogs both young and old into the existing pack. We have had a couple skirmishes that I verbally resolved within seconds, but no actual fighting.

BFD some may say. Why? What's the purpose? So what? I'm the kind of dogman who has always looked for a challenge, and this has been the greatest training challenge I have ever faced. It's very rewarding to be consistent enough with the dogs that they respond with the same consistency. And what of dogs that can run, wrestle, play keep away, and work together for hours on end? I would venture to say, most dogs going through a keep still couldn't touch this level of overall deep condition. This past couple of weeks, I had two females naturally choose their stud dog and allow the breeding with no human interaction whatsoever. It dawned on me, "how much different is this experience than shipping a bitch to a strange place to be tied down in a rape stand and bred"? My expectation is large litters from both bitches from one and two matings respectively, as nature took course without any outside pressure. I will report back in 50+ days.

Seriously folks, with a lot of the stuff we do and have done, we strip the dignity away from these dogs. Then we expect 101% from them in return for a half assed effort on our part. It doesn't work that way! I've done every dumb thing there is to do with these dogs in the 29 years I have had them. I followed the rules of the fancy so to speak, for a long time. All of that is out the window now. How much trust do you think it takes to let a 12 week old pup run loose among grown dogs on chain for the first time. I don't know about you, but I want a dog with a stable disposition. Give me a thinking dog! But that begs the question, could the psycho dog who hits everything that moves be reformed? This aspect of training bulldogs is some of the most interesting and inspiring work I have done in this breed, and certainly is as important to me as any prefix or suffix behind the names of dogs we have bred and shown.

Is there anyone else out there who is opening up the whole yard in unity and harmony? I would love to hear your experiences. Is there any interest in learning how to do so?

Yeah, I let littermates run loose like that about two years ago. Didn't work out too well for me and these were dogs that never had a tooth in them(until I let them loose). Tried it with mother and daughter also and worked well for a while until one day the mother was excited to see me and did a vertical leap in the air and when she came down she just barely nudged the daughter which caused a full blown fight. She apparently didn't like her mother pushing her around anymore and it wasn't good having a grown bitch on my 11 month old pup like that. Never thought about doing it again because the dog was too valuable to me to wreck.

I have always done some version of this, actually.

I sometimes had Silverback inside with as many as 4 bitches.
Poncho could play with a whole litterful of pups ... he'd lay on his back and let them tear his face apart, ripping his ears, making him bleed, he didn't care and didn't feel it. Was very gentle with pups.

Like everyone, I have had dogs that just "couldn't see hair move" without going ballistic ... but my BEST dogs have always had stable dispositions ... and have the sense to recognize the difference between friend and foe.

Jack

Have a bitch that will play with her or any other puppy till about the age of four months old then she at about that time she wont hurt them but she also not rolling on her back for them anymore!
But all puppies are allowed to run the yard free when we are doing yard work!
For me the older dogs teach them how to be a dog early on. And they learn pretty fast whos chain spot they are no longer welcome in and who they can ruff house with! Our one bitch who is the baddest head doctor i have seen will allow pups to eat their share of her feed first then eat wats left!
Now i will never allow the same sex to run in a pack as these dogs turn on pretty young and thats why the older bitch become strick with them to keep her pecking order!
Even to the order in what you feed creats a pecking order! Feed the first dog last when he or she has always been first to eat and watch how the become very vocal and the sudden change up!
I myself would never try the pack thing with dogs that are grown ,but we have done it with young dogs 3-4 months till they were two three years old. We also have two litter mates brothers who were raised together very close that are both GAME dogs who will killing anything else but could careless about each other!
Running bulldogs in a pack is not the best idea or for green horns as you have to be able to read their body language and know if somebody is thinking about challaging another for a higher spot in the pecking order! The one bad head doctor will run lose and not bother any other dog on the yard she plays with her half brother but will tear into anything else and the same for her half brother will scratch into his own shadow but play with her!
If you can understand a dogs world and keep a sharp eye on them to nip any chances of a scrap then it could work, but,but is it worth the risk of a scrap with two and have five other get excited and now you stuck trying to break up seven GAME dogs? For me naw, we let the ones that know whos chain spots to enter run loose!

This is a pretty cool thread!

I myself have always liked a dog smart enough to know the difference between friend and competition. I had two bitch pet bulls at the start of my yard. They helped me raise several litters of bulldogs and could always run with the dogs all throughout their life. At feeding time they would trot through the yard visiting every dog to gather dropped kibbles along the way.

A buddy of mine sent his 3 legged CH to my place for a while. He hold me that my two house dogs would end up dead if left to roam around his dog. It wasn't a week later he was in a submissive stance playing it up with the girls and the joy in his eyes I'll never forget. Dogs are social creatures, allowing them to tap into that doesn't harm their ability to perform whatsoever. Some of the very best dogs I've seen were great around other dogs who were not a threat to them.

S_B

I've always had multiple mutts together. Some take to it well and others there's no way in hell. I've found in 20 years of doing this that it only takes one real incident for some dogs to just simply not ever want to be around the others again. More times than not I have found that certain mutts will tolerate some and not tolerate others. Like they pick and choose whom they will be ok with and whom they simply will not allow in their presence. JM2c....
I have my last 2 girls (9 & 5 years old mother and daughter that have been together from the day the daughter was born yet neither will tolerate other dogs) The daughter will go after her own pups at around 5 to 6 months old. These 2 will be the last ones I will even attempt this with as it only takes a split second for an accident to happen. Usually over something stupid like who barked at the door first...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AGK

I've always had multiple mutts together. Some take to it well and others there's no way in hell. I've found in 20 years of doing this that it only takes one real incident for some dogs to just simply not ever want to be around the others again. More times than not I have found that certain mutts will tolerate some and not tolerate others. Like they pick and choose whom they will be ok with and whom they simply will not allow in their presence. JM2c....
I have my last 2 girls (9 & 5 years old mother and daughter that have been together from the day the daughter was born yet neither will tolerate other dogs) The daughter will go after her own pups at around 5 to 6 months old. These 2 will be the last ones I will even attempt this with as it only takes a split second for an accident to happen. Usually over something stupid like who barked at the door first...

---

And that is no lye! Had to young males 5-6 month old let me know it was time to keep them apart over
The lazy boy seat! Lol

I try to leave my dogs together for as long as they can stay that way. Sometimes it is several months and every now and then it is only a matter of weeks. Always different.

My buddy had a female, Ch. Angel, who would run and play with his Heelers all thru the woods. She wrestled and play fought like she did not have a care in the world. Personally I was always waiting for the horrible accident but it never happened. Close a door and step over a wall and she would go absolutely bat shit crazy, a highly intense methodical killer.
Step over the wall, walk out in the yard and she was Scooby Doo all over again.

I had one that could do that til he was about 14-15 months old and then one day he decided no more play time for him. Four legs? Check. Fur? Check. Go berserk? Check that box too.

It is possible to allow them to be together and in some cases it may last a life time. I just think it is flirting with disaster. But to each his own. EWO

Wow! I am overwhelmed that this oddball topic got more than a reply or two. Thanks for the interest, additional stories, and so forth. I would like to respond to all.

Black Hand, I too have had such experiences, which ultimately led me back to the safe path of tradition for many more years. What I have discovered is that issues like this represent a gap in the foundation training of a dog, and even more so, my relationship as absolute leader. Dogs continue to challenge us in the most subtle ways, and if they perceive more wins in those challenges, all respect is lost, even if they still really like us. I don't think this is for everyone or every dog, but it sounds like you were really close to holding it together. Many of us don't recognize these tests or.challenges the dogs throw at us, because they disguise it as play, but they are sneaky basta'ds!

Jack, I have always done it too on a limited basis, but have also had mishaps like I mentioned to Black Hand, and basically said "screw it". I realize now if the individual relationship with the dogs are on the right level, governing the pack just falls in place. It is this foundation of training that has really opened up the possibilities without much fear of chaos breaking out.

Ragedog, VERY keen insights my friend. One point where you and I may differ yet is the idea of "turning on". My older dogs now ran with dogs of mine that had hours of pit time (both now deceased). Perhaps that was actually my greatest accomplishment in this arena, getting them to accept other dogs again outside of that context. I have no doubts any of these dogs would "turn on" if asked by me (not happening!), and then be able to come home and run with the pack. I just don't subscribe to the idea of being on means they cannot control this urge forever more. You make excellent points about pecking order, and greenhorns. I am considering a series of videos that will give people those very tools of reading and working with their dogs individually first, and then with those skills, being able to introduce other dogs who belong to the same leader very naturally. A handfull or two of non bulldog people have seen a couple of videos I have made, and have strongly encouraged me to pursue teaching dog training technique in and out of the breed. I hadn't thought of teaching or videos until their encouragement was so fervent. I decided that if it could help dogs and.dog people, it may be worth pursuing.

SB, it seems like many of us have those old nostalgic stories in our past, but then we let something get in the way, usually too many dogs to deal with on this type of personal level. Shame on us! Bulldogs are social creatures indeed.

AGK, Not every dog is a candidate, that's for certain. I also.want to state here on an important point you mentioned, and that is I think it's foolish to leave them unsupervised in general. I will leave them now for a few minutes, but nothing more. All of.these dogs are down from my DeeCee bitch, and she ran the farm loose for several years. She's the exception, she just had that personality that I could fully trust. Yet, she had been thoroughly tested on multiple occasions.

Thanks again for the responses. I am having the time of my life working with dogs in this way. Many people assume that when they decide to stop "doing" dogs, that getting out is the natural option. When you see dogs running, wrestling and rolling around with each other for hours per week, you learn a lot about the dogs. They blossom physically and mentally, and it's been more fun than any keep I ever worked.

EWO, I came to the conclusion of flirting with disaster years ago, and generally discontinued the practice except for a few exceptions. The deal is though, these exceptions were often the best dogs in other areas too, just like CH Angel. Are there risks? Absolutely! Are there benefits that make it "worth it"? Perhaps, I sure see enough to make me convinced that it's a way to raise exceptionally well rounded, highly conditioned animals. And if it isn't worth it for us, can we consider that it might still be worth it for the sake of the dogs?

I definitely believe that the pack mentality holds true with these dogs every bit as much as any dog. I have and currently let my dogs interact. What is interesting is that for the most part they get along. Not always but for the most part. Any "ousiders" though take some time to allow in and other dogs outside the pack are not welcome. I just think it's all about the owner or the pack leader if you will. I am sure that this will not work with some dogs. No way. The other thing I have noticed is, and I'm not sure why but I have a female that seems for the most part to be the alpha. Now I know that she would get her ass kicked if it came down to it but I think her pussy plays a part in this behavior. Lol

Agreed. Nothing better than a well rounded dog. And anything worth having is worth working for, and worth the effort involved.

The principle is pretty much the same as leaving a dog on the chain except for when he is rolled and the expecting him to 'know' how to work once his weight is called. It happens sometimes but most of the time it is a headache that could have been avoided. Sometimes the dogs can know the difference, i.e., Ch. Angel, GrCh Virgil, Poncho, etc. etc. and that is those dogs who will give that extra little bit if you ask them to do so. That is really special in itself.

One of the things I learned long ago is that it takes all kinds to make the world go around. Dogs no different.

Out of the same camp we had Ch. Angel and Ch. Charlie. We were giving him a rub down in the building and I dropped some nails or screws or something, got down on the floor to pick them up and he perked up and was within a hair of making a scratch. He would scratch into a oncoming truck if it was in the box with him.

And great thread. Good series of posts. EWO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EWO

Agreed. Nothing better than a well rounded dog. And anything worth having is worth working for, and worth the effort involved.

The principle is pretty much the same as leaving a dog on the chain except for when he is rolled and the expecting him to 'know' how to work once his weight is called. It happens sometimes but most of the time it is a headache that could have been avoided. Sometimes the dogs can know the difference, i.e., Ch. Angel, GrCh Virgil, Poncho, etc. etc. and that is those dogs who will give that extra little bit if you ask them to do so. That is really special in itself.

One of the things I learned long ago is that it takes all kinds to make the world go around. Dogs no different.

Out of the same camp we had Ch. Angel and Ch. Charlie. We were giving him a rub down in the building and I dropped some nails or screws or something, got down on the floor to pick them up and he perked up and was within a hair of making a scratch. He would scratch into a oncoming truck if it was in the box with him.

And great thread. Good series of posts. EWO

---

Former Welterweight contender, Billy Collins, used to do dogs also.

I remember Bobby Holland telling me he went to a dog deal with Billy who was bringing two 2x winners in the back of his van, both of which were completely loose and sitting on the back seat. Both males.

The dogs would occasionally growl at each other and Billy would say, "Shut up!", and the dogs would shut up.

Well, one dog made Champion, the other was picked up game, and they both rode back home (chopped-up) and did not need to be separated either way ...

Jack

Great additional input guys! I know there are lurkers out there with great stories along these lines, we would love to hear them. I think we forget what so many of these dogs are capable of, and we inadvertently "profile" them ourselves, all the while griping about Breed Specific Legislation. Maybe it's the dog fanciers themselves who over regulate the breed with practices that stifle their individuality and potential.

nice topic, lets not forget that virgil was one of them smart dogs that could interact with other dogs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmqmCkBH5Y0

Almost always, it will be a person's BEST dogs that can interact with other dogs ... because it takes intelligence and discretion for dogs to be able to assess who-is-who.

Only stupid dogs want to fight "everything" and (typically) only stupid people encourage this.

Jack

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EWO

Close a door and step over a wall and she would go absolutely bat shit crazy, a highly intense methodical killer.
Step over the wall, walk out in the yard and she was Scooby Doo all over again.

---

That was Missy. Step over the plywood, she'd immediately growl, step back out, and she's a happy puppy ... step back in, she's deadly serious again.

Her sister Ruby would run loose in the neighborhood, and avoid aggressive dogs. Put her in the pit, she'd fugging decimate what was in front of her, and peel their nose back to their eyes ...

Ruby was so friendly, they didn't think she'd start ... but, even on her first time down, she could read the intent of the opponent ... and actually got the first hold, and shipwrecked the bitch in :22 ...

Jack

I really think this is the key Crisis, intelligence. My Homer III based stock would have been a bigger challenge, because frankly they aren't as intelligent. Less intelligent dogs tend to fall to the bottom of the pack when mixed with intelligent dogs. The funny thing is, when we had that stuff everyone was all ga~ga over it, but not only were they inferior in intelligence, they were probably not quite as good as my core stock in pit ability either.

This covers a lot of different topics as well. A dog who absolutely refuses to run the mill and the conditioner wasting three weeks trying to force it upon him and then being mad at the dog because he did 'take the keep'.

Knowing the dogs as individuals is huge. Recognizing and making adjustments is key.

If a dog can be that well rounded and know the difference it is a good thing, should be celebrated and a lifestyle can be forged around that type of dog. If the dog is the other way, maniacally fight crazy, he has his place to, where a a good chain set up is a must, always. EWO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CA Jack

Almost always, it will be a person's BEST dogs that can interact with other dogs ... because it takes intelligence and discretion for dogs to be able to assess who-is-who.

Only stupid dogs want to fight "everything" and (typically) only stupid people encourage this.

Jack

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EWO

This covers a lot of different topics as well. A dog who absolutely refuses to run the mill and the conditioner wasting three weeks trying to force it upon him and then being mad at the dog because he did 'take the keep'.

Knowing the dogs as individuals is huge. Recognizing and making adjustments is key.

If a dog can be that well rounded and know the difference it is a good thing, should be celebrated and a lifestyle can be forged around that type of dog. If the dog is the other way, maniacally fight crazy, he has his place to, where a a good chain set up is a must, always. EWO

---

You hit upon my whole impetus for this type of experiential, and physical training. That is, the ability to take the individual to his or her full potential in whatever endeavor the dog is asked to perform. C'mon guys, do we.really think the methods of the 50's or even the 70's, or 90's is the optimum way to raise.dogs? On the other hand, there were plenty of successful folks who hand.raised them in small numbers (Andre Giroux and Norman Hooten immediately come to mind) back in that same era, who definitively proved one could do more with less.

I'm sorry, but if a fancier is smart today, they likely already realize the era of keeping 30, 50, or more dogs is bygone. If not, news flash!:-) Training methods like this.can allow a fancier to do more with less IMO. A dog that will quit.in :20 for.the local hee haw dog.goober may do 2:00 for a beloved friend. Who got it wrong in the former scenario? Who got blamed?

Phone browser SNAFU

I think in general most of em will get along in a controlled enviornment. The times I've run into problems was when something triggered their prey drive, and that competitiveness came out. (fetch, tug). And one would tweak out because the other one got the ball, or wouldn't let go of the rope. But even then I could let the same pair off together a few days later and they would wrestle and play like nothing happened.
Another good one that was like this was J Rods GR CH Midnight. He said he would leave him free in the house with other dogs while he was at work with no problems.

Good post. A person has to have the sense not to trigger that "mutual prey drive."

I actually lost the best bitch I have ever owned, Jezebel, to an accident because I left her alone with Silverback (and did not know he was a finisher, as that was the first time he ever started--and she started it, because she got mad at another bitch and latched onto him).

My own stupidity cost me dearly that day, and I was only gone for like ten minutes.

If it would have been any other dog than Silverback, I would have come back in :10 to a fight still happening, not a total finish in the throat.

Silverback was a very good dog to have around other dogs (bitches), and loved Jezebel, but no way was he going to take being bitten by anything ... even as a 16-month-old puppy :crying:

Jack

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TFX

You hit upon my whole impetus for this type of experiential, and physical training. That is, the ability to take the individual to his or her full potential in whatever endeavor the dog is asked to perform. C'mon guys, do we.really think the methods of the 50's or even the 70's, or 90's is the optimum way to raise.dogs? On the other hand, there were plenty of successful folks who hand.raised them in small numbers (Andre Giroux and Norman Hooten immediately come to mind) back in that same era, who definitively proved one could do more with less.

I'm sorry, but if a fancier is smart today, they likely already realize the era of keeping 30, 50, or more dogs is bygone. If not, news flash!:-) Training methods like this.can allow a fancier to do more with less IMO. A dog that will quit.in :20 for.the local hee haw dog.goober may do 2:00 for a beloved friend. Who got it wrong in the former scenario? Who got blamed?

---

Absolutely agree with what was said here. Do more with less is the best way in today's world. :-)

TXF great thread you got going here. I honestly believe letting bulldogs run in a pack is a good thing too but just have to supervise them. Anything is possible with effort.

Excellent thread with great views and experiences shared within. I have let certain dogs be around other dogs but I'm not sure if it would classify as "running in a pack". In a sense it would because more than one could be considered a "pack" but I've only allowed two dogs at a time to be around each other. And knowing which dogs to try this with obviously helps in minimizing accidents as much as possible. I do see a sense of "happiness" in the dogs when they are allowed to interact with each other, when they do get along. A great point was brought up about triggering a "prey drive reaction" or something similar to that. That is the exact reason I won't let more than two dogs "loose", no matter how well they seemed they'd do in that situation. Things just go south way too quick for me to even consider it.

I do not agree that the more intelligent animals are necessarily the best candidates for running two dogs together and I sure wouldnt try a pack of adult dogs.I think it is more about the individuals nature rather than a show of intelligence.Although I do believe the smarter animal with the right nature will most always be more tolerant when socializing these dogs.I have a female who is very smart and has the right nature most of the time but for unexplannable reason she has shown me multiple times to stay close and do not take my attention off her for even a minute.This may work with some lines but definitely not mine.I have broke up multiple dog accidents more than once with young adults.Lesson learned.I do agree its an interesting thread and it is nice to read others experiences.