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Could the dog men of yesterday compete with the fast lane Dog men of today? I truly don't think the dog's have gotten much better, but I don't think the Dog-men of yesterday years could compete with our conditioning technology, and understanding of the A.P.B.T In today's time, and era ! imo The day's of just mill work is long gone and over... in today's time, IT's down the the damn science.
IMHO I beg to differ. Maybe just relearning some minor feed improvements or easier convenient food products that requires less time to prepare. The best dogs of the 70's/80's90's were just as good and powerful back then as some are implying theirs are today. Going the distance of two and three hours back then is no different than going the same time limits today. I have been on some dog yards lately, a dog show, and looked at dogs on the You Tube. Look like the same ole dogs to me just bred down further from the original dogs I knew about in my time era.
The dogs my Father and Uncle had in the 50's when I was a young boy. Were really great looking ole timey Bull Terrier type looking dogs. My Father had some 100% Trice bred dogs. They were rugged, tough hided, hard punishing foul fighting type dogs. Showing deep gaminess yet lots of intelligence. A lot of talk about raw diets today. Most dogs back then were conditioned on a lot of raw meat like horse meat/Cow and glandular meats. Back then dogs were given plenty of raw shank bones to eat and chew. Butchers always had plenty of bones and scrap meat for brood bitches and puppies. Back then a dollar was really worth a dollar based on the Gold standard.
I learned a long time back, the better dogs are generally found on dog yards of owners that take extra good care of their dogs. These type men/women will have the discipline and get up and go to properly work their animals for dog shows. So whether the fast lane or the slow lane. Wise to bring the best dog you can find when showing dogs against these type of dog persons.
The biggest change I am seeing in equipment has been better built Treadmills/Carpet Mills, which I never cared to use that much. These newer ones might change my mind if I was to see a dog personally worked on one.
I put a couple fellows onto the round table and they are liking it a lot. Get one built just right at 16 feet to 20 feet they will be loving it. Their is a picture I have seen of F. Chavis' Jocko working a Jenny Mill made of wood. Mr. Chavis and Son were professional carpenters. Jocko was working that mill and dragging a concrete block on a piece of wire behind him. Jocko was a well built and powerful dog. Jocko at his best pit weight back then would be just as powerful at that weight today. Cheers
I will add this though. If the beginner dog men of my time including me, had access to these newer medications and their proper use. Info. on better chain hook ups and brood pens etc. That is provided and taught in Ca. Jack's book. That would have saved me from learning things the hard way and a lot of money to boot. By having this type info. These younger dedicated dog persons can advance at a much faster pace from the slow lane to the fast lane.
For as a added supplement that balanced the moisture in the dogs lungs without drying it out. Enabled it to breathe very deeply, slowly and cool. No swelling and any blood loss if any was very minimal. Florida Combine and V.J. had that perfected.
Only a handful till this day used it. Even D. Mayfield did not know till V.J. told him. Was a well kept secret for over 30 years till I brought it up. Tried to get some specifics from my Vet. But he changed the subject. So figure it is a discontinued product. Pretty sure it was used primarily on Cattle, heard Dr. Pol on TV mentioned it the other day for a sick cow. Cheers
I think one of the best traits of highly-active old timers is knowing how to call a weight.
I knew an old-timer who had that down to a science. His selection methods were also superior.
He just knew a good dog when he saw one and could really peg the weight, so he's always have the biggest dog at the smallest weight.
He went into many "top conditioners" and beat their ass because he just knew a dog and would always come with the better dog who was bigger at the weight.
He never conditioned; only handwalked and let the dog drag a 15' chain on a hillside.
His motto was, "Jack, if my dog can't go at least an hour, hard, right off the chain, then I don't need that fucken dog."
Jack
Intense Motto, but I like his mentality. I get people giving me shit when I say the same but only :20......lolQuote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
The successful dogmen of the past would more than likely be just as successful today. Most of them would simply keep up with the the new technology or methods. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them understood it back then, before science and their peers could prove it. You can't be great if you think inside of box. Personally, I would say I have done well for myself by trying things that others wouldn't even try. Sometimes it's better to learn from experience than to simply believe what you are told.
Amen to that ...Quote:
Originally Posted by kandyman
In having family-bred my own line of dogs, longer than most any old-timer in history has ever actually sustained his own line of dogs, that all trace back to the first dogs I ever had, I can absolutely tell you that what most people say/think about inbreeding is absolutely false (or, at best, full of half-truths).
Most people are like parrots, "repeating what they hear," with absolutely zero knowledge on the subject of actually maintaining a trans-generational family of animals ... and keeping them competitive.
I am sure this kind of first-hand knowledge of conditioning ... as well as of judging/pulling-down a dog to find its "best weight" ... also applies to years and years of first-hand experience.
Jack
good post CYJQuote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
You nailed it on the head Jack. You got to have excellent breathing, rugged athletic type dogs with big bones, and strong teeth help a lot too. If you do not have a healthy animal from the brood bitches belly to the dog show. You just can not put a inferior animal in better shape over a well cared for one even if one knows how.
The dog men that know how, not necessary me either, will walk around those type of uncared for dogs. I do not wish to become to brash. A few young dog men that came to me asking questions. I always stressed learn proper dog care first, be selective with any dogs or puppies. How the dog yard looked over all that you are going to get the dogs from.
When they were ready to rumble one in the jungle. Go find those dog men that kept flies & dog feces filled yards and wormy looking dogs and pups. Believe me they were out there. I could only shutter and think to myself. Glad I am not a dog belonging to you. LOL Suggested practice on them till you perfect your keep etc. before jumping on a good dog man that cares for their animals. LOL Cheers
Jack could you elaborate a little more on how long or far that Ole timer walked his dogs while pulling that 15 foot chain? Sure he used different weighted chains for the size dog pulling it. The only person that I saw personally work dogs like this was A. Howle along with some round table work.
Never saw his dogs get in trouble for air and were strong as bulls. Always had a big boned dog for the weight. A weak built dog or a dog with any type physical problem, would not hold up long to a keep like that. That chain would definitely bring out the weak links in the dog's body if they are there. LOL
This may be a little too broad but I think successful people will be successful people despite the era. The great dog men of yester year figured some things out, put in some time and had great successes. Todays successful dog man is no different.
Sort of like the Top 5 dog men from the sixties all had 60's science and information available to them. They used it and maybe some of them were in the 70's while the gist of the group was still plugging along in with 60's information. The guys doing really well in the 90's all had 90's science and information at their disposal and they used.
Most of the time the successful people just simply use what is available to them better than the guy down the road. Like if Jack's book was written in the 60's a certain number of people would use it and a certain number of people would stick to their version of doing things, maybe 50's or even the 40's. And when people do not use what is available and out there usually they get left behind.
I don't think there is much difference between the eras. EWO
As Jack said, calling the correct weight is huge. Personally, I think it is the foundation to the 'winning' dog. Lots of dogs have a two pound window in which they can perform admirably, some even three. It is simply hard for a really good dog who is smaller to beat a really good dog who is bigger. Calling weight is an art. Lots of times it is the difference between winning and losing when really good dogs are involved.
EWO
The best dogman I personally know said the exact same thing about 2 weeks ago about his conditioning methods.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I think EWO said it right. Top dogmen of yesterday would be top dogmen of today as well.
However, I do NOT believe the conditioning methods of 50 years ago can compete with today's dogs. Just look at pictures. Dogs were conditioned for marathon fights, therefore, you got marathon fights. Dogs are brought in much stronger now days compared to way back then. Thus, not as many multi-hour matches.
The best way to learn how to determine a dog's pulling weight and learn the in's and outs of working a dog. Is to pre keep your dogs that you plan to take a good look at. For a future dog show or breeding purposes. The more pre keeps you do the more you will learn. You have a important older stud dog/bitch you are wanting to breed in a month or so, give a four week pre keep. Will improve your breeding success a lot.
These four week pre keeps will teach you all of what you have to do. What items to have on hand to keep your dog strong. What methods and type work equipment will work best for you. You learn how to slowly reduce the dog to it's best weight and strength ratio. Learn how to toughen the dog's feet up and much more. Better understanding of how to feed. Giving enough fluids.
One of the best over all lessons learned will be; does one really have the time and inclination to see it all through. Working a show dog properly is time consuming and hard work. One has to start on a proper time schedule at each main work session. Cannot do it this way or that way according one's whim.
If I was younger and decided to try the ole game again. I would visit dog yards and look for good show dogs and just work the dog. My risks, exposures to the ones that want this breed of dogs done away with, would be greatly reduced. Once the dog show is over return the dog to owner or sent else where to recover in a private place.
All the money and time spent on the care of dog and puppies etc. Could be redirected at providing your show dog with all of your time and attention. Providing the best work equipment, feed, extra money for a vote of confidence. If one lost the dog show, the loss would not be as devastating. Since one could just consider it as Hobby money. LOL
The dog conditioner/handler is the one, that gets to really have all the fun at the end of the day. Today with books like the Pit Bull Bible available along with all these various keep ideas. A beginner today taking their time, not putting the horse before the cart. Can learn and do much better than what was available 30 years ago. Everything back then was hush, hush and finding out this and that was a little here and a little there.
Some of the best dog men I knew were cool under pressure and had a double dose of common sense. That helped them solve problems that cropped up during a keep. Cheers
That is sort of my point about successful people. Back then the best used what was current and what was available. Todays guy does the same. If yesterday's successful guy could compete with today's successful guy he would figure out the why's and what fors and be successful in this era as well.
The difference in the two is the advances in science with feed and supplementation, especially supplementation. The successful dog man will take advantage of everything out there regardless of his generation.
EWO
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel