Hey Jack,was this your dog.If so what information could you pass on about breeding this line of dog. Speaking of the ofrn line of dogs
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Hey Jack,was this your dog.If so what information could you pass on about breeding this line of dog. Speaking of the ofrn line of dogs
Ditto Wheatie, I asked Jack about the Flame Tree Wilder Red Nose Hemphill dogs in a private p.m. Should have posted it on a topic like this one. Jack mentioned he had success with one dog but not with three or four other ones.
If Jack choses to go back over those dogs he mentioned to me and the one you have asked about. Will be some interesting reading. When I got into the dog game in the 70's. In the southeast area the red nose Hemphill dogs were not being used that much that I knew of in their purest form. Mr. Hemphill had passed and I believe Jake Wilder bought most of his last dogs. Later Norrod Kennels bought the last Hemphill dogs of Jake Wilder when Mr. Wilder due to health reasons got out of the dogs.
Some others may have gotten some of Mr. Hemphill's last dogs along with the ones Mr. Wilder got in the late 60's. Cheers
lol. Mr. Wilder got all Bob Hemphills culls..
Dean Plemmon had some of the Hemphill blood along with another dog man Paul Wallace in Cheraw S.C. Mr. Plemmon and Mr. Egan Skinner had bred up some of Plemmon's OFRN crossed to some of Mr. Skinner's Bullet x Brindle Lightner dogs. This young crop of dogs Mr. Skinner had were lost in a Flash Flood when he lived in N.C.
Paul Wallace had some of the straight OFRN direct from Hemphill and was good friends with Mr. Teal, Mr. Plemmon and Mr. Skinner. He was doing real good in the dog game. While he was out in Mississippi with Mr. Teal at a dog show. He got news that his wife and child had been killed in a bad car accident.
Mr. Wallace came back home and due to this emotional tragedy, got rid of his dogs and quit the dog game. When my Father was active in the dog game he and Mr. Paul Wallace were good friends. We ran into Mr. Wallace about ten years back at a restaurant in Florence S.C. He was in good spirits but did not mentioned or asked anything about the dogs.
Some of the last original Red Nose OFRN dogs I saw personally. Was owned by my next door deceased neighbor Heyward Stokes. He had rabbit and Deer hounds along with the Pit Bulls. When I was a young boy the Pee Dee area was a hot bed for all forms of dog sports. Mr. Truett was a active young dog man way back then when I was in my Teens.
I might add also that not all of Mr. Hemphill's OFRN dogs came with a red/red nose. Some came various buckskin colors with black noses etc. Tudor's Dibo maybe under the name of Tudor's Runt had been bred into some of his Red/Red Nose stock back then. Cheers
Ditto EVO,It was always my understanding back then from the local dog men like Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner that Mr. Jake Wilder and even Mr. Loposay were basically just sellers of dogs off the names of known older breeders like Colby or Hemphill etc. Pretty sure Mr. Pete Sparks was lumped into that group as well.
Since I never was around those dog men or lived close by. I can truly not say one way or the other. Norrod will put up a big argument on the other side of the coin. About if Mr. Wilder checked his dogs out and had very private dog shows. Norrod says his Hemphill stock is still game proven. Since I do not or have never been across the Mason Dixie line with a show dog. Do not know one way or the other.
Suppose if one sells enough dogs on a large scale like Mr. Loposay and Grady Cummings did. Bound to get some good ones here and there. Mr. Maurice Carver was the only dog breeder back then that I knew. That sold a lot of good quality dogs. He did have excess to some of the best proven and various bloodlines in the South West. Cheers
Will try to respond later ...
TFX is also a treasure trove of info on this line ... PM him and ask him to post too.
Thanks for all information. Just curious bout blood might be getting some soon
TFX and I really wanted to team up and "restore" the OFRN line. We figured, if anyone could we could.
Trouble is, I never saw one of those dogs actually fight.
I bought several and NONE would start or even remotely show normal aggression. Not one.
They all just sulled-up into a ball ... every one. They were honestly the furthest thing from "fighting dogs" I have ever seen.
The bitch I owned back in the late-80s, early 90s, Red Angel, was just the opposite: she was ballistic at an early age, she would hit anything, and she was a VERY talented ear dog (with absolutely zero mouth). The beat the hell out of Hollingsworth's Truman (a male) in a kennel fight, and in fact actually stopped the brother of Ollie (the dog who killed Truman) in a OTC match. She stopped another pure Hollingsworth bitch I got from Garner ( think a sister to this bitch), but Red Angel was a bad bitch!
All those other Hemphill type dogs I got were absolute garbage compared to Red Angel.
They were beautiful, but they were not even game bums. They were dogs that didn't have the slightest thought of "fighting" on their minds, not even to defend themselves.
I could have waited on them longer, but when I see NOTHING out of a whole group of dogs ... across the board ... I need to stop wasting my time.
I really did have high hopes for them ... they were beautiful animals.
Jack
Sad to say that this was/is the problem with the family of dogs. They are beautiful animals and people started breeding them just for that and nothing else. I really do love the ones I have but then again the folks who bred them used them for dog sports like Schutzhund and french ring. So without even knowing that they where making bulldogs they did. They looked for dogs with very high prey drive, natural full hard grips, rock solid nerves, smarts and wind. I've tried some from the "pure" or close to pure families of dogs and they sucked ass. weak nerves and cotton mouths. Most of the OFRN dogs are cold until 2 or 3 years old. I myself like the last outcross breeding I did. I took a 62.5% Gambler's virgil bitch and bred her to my OFRN male and got a litter of 6 pups. 3 males and 3 females. 1 male and 1 female had temperament issues. The male wanted to kill anyone except my wife and I and the female would piss herself getting away from everyone. But at 11 months old the male got on my last nerve so I culled him for growling at kids. But before I did I checked his oil and I had a very hard time letting him go after that system check. 2 went into working pet home that do stuff like agility and then I kept a bitch and she is very nice but BIG I mean like on the chain 55 pounds big. good friend has one male who is very nice and the runt male was my wife's dog that got out of his kennel and into something that caused him a serious blockage this happened while I was in the middle east. I currently have a litter of 12 that will be 2 in November so I am trying to wait to see how this very inbred litter will work out. Time will tell. I do have a good friend down south who has OFRN dogs and they are breaking hearts in the bible belt with their gameness and ability but still not all of the mouth he wants. But he is working hard at selecting the right ones to keep within his yard. There are two guys who I know very well that have the OFRN dogs but they are crossed with the Burton's Hank dog and they are really nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrknapbt
Gameness and ability are all you need to win more than you lost.
"Breeding for mouth" is a catastrophic blunder IMO .. since many dogs that "have" mouth don't necessarily use it all the time.
I have had dogs that hang onto the other dog, not really biting so hard, but they WILL bite hard if they get hurt, or if they're in the right spot.
But if you can get gameness and intelligence ... and AIR ... you will always win more than you lose. Always.
Jack
Well im getting some ofrn that has been outcrossed and the male oil was checked.Doesnt mean everything but i will give it a chance. While studying the pedigree,I saw Visegrip Goddess in it a few generation back. So i decided to ask Jack about this gyp. Thanks for all input and maybe one day,I can come back and give my opinion on the outcome. thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheatie
That is ultimately a meaningless phrase ... it all depends on WHO "checked" the oil (their record and judgement over the long haul) :idea:
I have seen many, many people talk about how "game" their dogs are ... and how "hard" they "tested" the sire/dam to their litters ... but I have never seen ONE dog from their kennel make it to the top (or anywhere near the top) ...
Jack
Someone on this board said it before and I agree. The closest thing to working OFRN dogs is Hollingsworth blood. The Clouse dogs that Patrick bred Bolio too had tons of it in there. I've been told that my dogs have that OFRN look..like Ferguson's Centipede.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum....php?dog_id=83
Yes Jack, that is true in alot of cases. But I rarely deal with anyone and the ones I do, know this game pretty well. Been around these animal for a long time and seen alot. If he say the animal was game,you can bet on it. Not saying that the animal is a bad ass but was good enough for him to breed.And games has always been his top concern when it comes to a bulldog. But i still consider everything you have said and know a couple of kennels using the ofrn. I believe that its not the line keeping them from the top but the knowledge of the game. These animal in the right person hands would make a mark in this game.
Good luck :-bd
Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
They do have that look.