female died unexpectedly??

I had a female pass recently. She was about six days (Jack, I recounted) or so out from having pups. She looked good, acted good, vet checked as good to go. Her first time so we made arrangements if she needed vet help during the night. All was well.

I came home around 11pm and she was scratching and clawing and cutting circles in the box making her bed ready. I fed her but she only sniffed and went back to getting the box the way she liked it. I assumed she was about to have the pups. I checked on her the next morning about 5am and she was dead. Not too long because she was still warm and had not began to stiffen. I was totally shocked.

I checked her the best I could. She did not have any marks or swelling for any type of bite. She had a couple heavy bloody discharges but nothing to the extreme. She did not to appear to be bloated. She looked pretty much just like she did a few hours before.

The only thing is that her mouth was completely gray. Her gums, tongue, cheeks and under her tongue was all gray. It smelled horrible. There didn't appear to be any type of bite in or around her mouth.


Anyone ever heard or seen anything similar to this? Way weird to me. Sort of quick to happen from 11pm to 5am. EWO

My honest guess is that she died in labor. Sometimes bitches simply have complications with the delivery.

The grey color of her mouth would reflect blood loss down below ... as would the blood down below.

The only way to find out for sure would be to have an autopsy performed on the bitch (which isn't too expensive), and my bet would be there was a pup stuck in the birth canal (or a rupture in the uterus).

I have had several bitches that would have died trying to pass the pups were I not there to assist with the delivery, many of whom required c-sections.

I personally would never let any bitch "just have pups" on her own. I realize many bitches can do so just fine, but I have seen way too many times where they could not. I have also had bitches who delivered just fine once, yet needed a c-section the next time (and even vice versa).

Usually it's been smaller bitches, but one bitch was good-sized, had 9 massive pups in her, and her uterus ruptured, so she could no longer "push" and needed a c-section, then spay.

Had another bitch trying to push her pup out sideways (neither head-first, nor feet-first) ... so there was nothing for me to grab onto ... so she needed a c-section.

Both of these bitches would have died had I just gone to bed and left them out in a pen to deliver their pups. Had plenty of others that would have as well.

So I respectfully disagree with your assessment: 11pm - 5 am is plenty of time for a bitch to die, struggling in labor, especially if there was a rupture and internal bleeding.

I am sorry your bitch died, that is nothing anyone wants to see coming out to their first-time mother. But this story underscores why I personally had every bitch inside my house, and was right there to assist with the delivery, if need be, and/or take her to an emergency vet if need be.

Delivering pups is serious (and potentially life-threatening) business, so what I would recommend coming away with is an understanding of this fact.

Seriously sorry to hear about your loss,

Jack

especially if its the first time I stay with them till the end
most I have seen freak out a bit and attack the first pup

my main brood bitch from years ago got accustomed of me doing the last part
she would get the pups till halfway and look at me like , do your thing

I don't know of I've ever slept from 11pm to 5am the week before or week after having pups. Had them whelp at my bed side with a few first timers even. Im kind of a worrier though n can't sleep unless I check them every few hours.

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Originally Posted by bulldoghistorian

my main brood bitch from years ago got accustomed of me doing the last part
she would get the pups till halfway and look at me like , do your thing

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That is how my bitches got to be: would start pushing, look back, and pretty much "expect" me to handle the rest :lol:

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Originally Posted by SteelyDan

I don't know of I've ever slept from 11pm to 5am the week before or week after having pups. Had them whelp at my bed side with a few first timers even. Im kind of a worrier though n can't sleep unless I check them every few hours.

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Yep. I always take my bitches inside 2 weeks out, so they have plenty of time to get over the anxiety of being brought in, and adapt to the new routine. Recommend all this in my book (& DVDs), in fact.

And, yes again, the crate's in the bedroom, so I know everything that's going on. Pups and mama stay inside until till I am convinced they're all strong and nursing ... and that mama isn't a retard who lays on her pups, etc. ... and I usually wait until their eyes are open before placing them out in an above-ground pen.

It is impossible to be on top of things while mama and puppies are outside. Simply impossible.

Jack

Thanks for the input.

This situation is the reason I have always preferred buying puppies or younger dogs vs. raising litters. I understand the time commitment it takes to do it right and that time is something I seldom have. I work an hour away, a 12 hour shift, monitoring and dictating volatile reaction within a reactor, and then drive back. Staying up with the dogs and maintaining employment has always been a conflict. Recognizing this, I have maybe had 6 or 7 litters since the early 90's. Just not my cup of tea. For me, it has always been easier to buy than to breed.

The gray in the mouth is pretty much due to blood loss, or at least that is what I figured/guessed. I think the smell thru me as much as anything.

Thanks for the insight. EWO

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Originally Posted by SteelyDan

I don't know of I've ever slept from 11pm to 5am the week before or week after having pups. Had them whelp at my bed side with a few first timers even. Im kind of a worrier though n can't sleep unless I check them every few hours.

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Same thing here. Brought her in 2wks before due date, set up whelping box a wk before. She stays in our master bath until they are on their own @ about 4wks old.

Last night was my first good night of sleep since the 1st. It was a whole 5hrs lmao.

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Originally Posted by EWO

Thanks for the input.

This situation is the reason I have always preferred buying puppies or younger dogs vs. raising litters. I understand the time commitment it takes to do it right and that time is something I seldom have. I work an hour away, a 12 hour shift, monitoring and dictating volatile reaction within a reactor, and then drive back. Staying up with the dogs and maintaining employment has always been a conflict. Recognizing this, I have maybe had 6 or 7 litters since the early 90's. Just not my cup of tea. For me, it has always been easier to buy than to breed.

The gray in the mouth is pretty much due to blood loss, or at least that is what I figured/guessed. I think the smell thru me as much as anything.

Thanks for the insight. EWO

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I hear you on the time thing. Though I'd like to add, EVEN if you have the time, things still go wrong. I'm self employed and most of my time is spent here. Even when not tending to the hounds I'm always here. LOL

We had litter drop the night of the 1st. Was 11hrs for 8 pups. Gyp is pushing 9yrs and only her second breeding. All but 2 were born breached and 1 was out the sack when she popped out. We revived and she made it to day 3 before passing. Anyhow just wanted to share that and say things happen, only things we can do is CUR OR SCRATCH ON! :D

BTW, would the bad smell be from blood pooling internally. That smell death smellis awful.

Sorry to hear about your bitch and pups EWO. I've had 2 bitches miscarry this year as well it is heartbreaking.

And I to like you do not enjoy breeding dogs.

S_B

It could have been the reason for the smell. I just do not know.

And if it were not for time I would have a 100 or so staked out all over the farm. But for me, available time dictates just about everything with the dogs. My son is off to college now so the dog count may increase, LOL. Since he was 7 years old it has been baseball from Feb/Mar to Oct/Nov. Football from July/August til Oct/Nov. Wrestling started as soon as football ended. Brazillian Jui Jitsu on the nights that were available. From 7 to 17 there have only been a handful of weekends we were sitting at home. Those ten years forced me from the 15-20 dogs I ran up and down the roads with to 3 or 4. In those ten years I made two breedings, for the same reasoning. I just di not have the time the dogs needed/deserved/demanded/asked for (any of the words seem to fit).

Again, I leave the breeding to the people who are willing to commit to the time requirements. I just do not happen to be one of them. I did buy my weekly powerball ticket this morning so maybe Sunday morning I will have the time needed. Til then, it is back to the night shift again tonight.

Thanks for the posts. To pshyco-analyze maybe I was hoping it was a rare from of blah-blah-blah that lessened my accountability. Pretty much hoping against hope. Basically she needed me when I did not have the time for her and that is on me. EWO

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Originally Posted by EWO

Thanks for the posts.

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Sure.

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Originally Posted by EWO

To pshyco-analyze maybe I was hoping it was a rare from of blah-blah-blah that lessened my accountability. Pretty much hoping against hope.

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That is probably as honest as it can get. We've all been there, and it sucks, most especially for the dogs who rely on us.

Kudos for the admission.

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Originally Posted by EWO

Basically she needed me when I did not have the time for her and that is on me. EWO

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You had the time. You were right there the whole time. Sleeping.

You just chose not to be bothered with bringing her in for her impending first-time-ever delivery, and went to sleep, assuming that she'd be fine.

So really, it's about willingness to be there, not time.

Jack

One of the (many) times I messed up bad, I had this bitch who was a terrible mother, Secret Star.

I didn't know it at the time, because I made this fabulous inbreeding, with her back to her ACE uncle, Icon.

She produced 7 pups in her first litter I think (I could only remember 4), but she was a horrible, no-instincts, mother.

I had to basically hold her down and let the pups nurse. She was always trying to get away from them. Up to that point, I had never owned a bitch that hurt its own pups on purpose.

Well, I had this other bitch, Tiki, who only had 1 pup bred to Icon also. The pup was a little older, but not by much.

I decided to put Tiki out in a pen, to let her out of the crate, but it was cold inside the house, and I had to go to the airport.

I decided to put her 1 pup in there with Secret Star, who was now outside in a pen with her pups, as a whole litter can keep each other warmer than just 1 pup.

I put the 1 extra pup in there with the others ... as he was much darker and easy to recognize ... but Secret Star looked at him funny, and I had a weird feeling about it.

I shrugged it off and drove to the airport ... but when I came back it was to an absolute slaughter: Secret Star just massacred every single one of those pups.
Little broken puppies, skull fragments, brains, guts, and blood everywhere, just slaughtered them.
You could still hear the sickening sounds of some of the poor little guys moaning in agony.

To this day, I still beat myself up for that. Will never forgive my own stupidity.
I should have gone with my gut, that something wasn't right about the way she looked at that pup, but I took the avenue of least resistance and ignored the sign.

Those were some of the best, bred, most beautiful pups I could have bred, and I had VERY high hopes for them ... but a little bit of laziness cost me there too ... and I will never forgive myself for it either.

Jack

Agreed. We all have the time. On average we are all allotted 24 hours per day. EWO

I applaud your attitude, EWO. Not once have you shifted blame or denied it, I respect that a lot. I have a very good feeling you will use this as a learning lesson, good luck to you.

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You had the time. You were right there the whole time. Sleeping.

You just chose not to be bothered with bringing her in for her impending first-time-ever delivery, and went to sleep, assuming that she'd be fine.

So really, it's about willingness to be there, not time.

Jack

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Very good post.

But sorry for your loss EWO.

Great posts I applaud your attitude also ewo and Jack and everyone's input it's so good to see people out there not making excuses