Anybody have any history on these two lines .
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Anybody have any history on these two lines .
Look up Fitzwaters Goldie and then Google Fitzwater Goldie , Dibo crosses .Maybe this will help you.
Pretty well every blood line of note today has a Colby or Lightner or both in the beginning blood line way, way back. This pedigree search engine will go fourteen generations on any dog listed. When you get back to the founding dogs. You will find a Colby dog or more than one somewhere. Even the main Lightner Stud dog , Lightner's Vick had Colby breeding in it.
If V. J. had back then not let so much time pass. Before just trying any out cross dog into his dogs. Gave me a call on what he planned to do. I would have told him to reintroduce a good Colby male and Female dog back into his stock. Preferably the male line first. Everything checked out proceed on as before. Better that way than just introduce another family of dogs that may have little in common with your stock. Our dogs were predominately bred down from the Corvino/ Tudor/Heinzl/Colby dogs. Today showing a strong Dibo and little Colby influence in the 14th generation search.
Here is the kicker. One of Colby's Grand sons that had some of the last Colby stock only lived a hour's drive from V.J. and V.J. still probably today does not know it. Have called him recently but no reply at of yet. Is slow about returning calls. Cheers
Any history on what states they where in ?Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Plenty of history on the lightner and Colby dogs on the internet. Most of their history is probably detailed on here somewhere if you know how to use google well enough to find it.
I doubt there are that many actual dog men that have any straight bred Colby dogs today. One member on the online pedigree p.m. me. Said he had one young Colby dog named Joseph. He lives in the same State of Massachusetts, the original Colby family lives in. Bought the dog direct from them. Dog's id on, on line peds is 38211.
Plan to bring this pedigree over some time this week if it is not already on this site. Cheers
I know the of the dog your speaking of CJ. The young man that has the Joseph dog is some what new to dogs , anyway about 3yrs back he had a son of the Joseph dog he took back from a friend and he was given the dog away so I contacted him about the male who I believe had quarter Jeep x Redboy out and he brought the male here and he was a beautiful dog, I put him on a empty chain to see how he acted around the other dogs and he acting good. Well I took him off to talk to this young man and finalize the deal, well my son and his friends were coming up the drive and the male went ape shit at them like he was trying to get a dog!! Well need less to stay I declined to take the dog. Any way my plan was to see if the dog was gonna work and possibly cross him into our base stock of blood and figured it s a whole lot cheaper to start with a 17 month old free prospect, the thing with those Colby dogs is the attract a lot of newibes and get them and over night become Colby breeders and the Colby dogs get watered down to show stock more or lees, not saying this is case with the Joseph dogs owner but with the majority. That last decent Colby bred dog I saw was about 14 years ago and eventually pulled up but he made it farther than most. But I do believe if one can find it in true working form it will help a program.Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Ditto ragedog10. I would agree 100%. Sad part is a lot of the Colby dogs even when Loposay and Pete Sparks were selling them. These dog breeders were just pushing the Colby name. Some of these younger dog men of today may think Loposay and Sparks checked their dogs out. I seriously doubt that was done on most of it.
Even the founding Colby bitch that Lonzo Pratt used. He got, I believe from Loposay or Orday was considered a cold bitch. Yet you have the Pratt line and Jeep line going strong today bred off some of that same Colby stock. Go figure.
Back in the 70's in Hartsville S.C. there was a man that probably had more Colby dogs than Loposay. Had a large kennel of them. Yet none of the real competitive dog men had any dealings with this person or wanted any of his dogs. Working for the Telephone Company rode by his place many times. Never stopped to check him out. Figured if the other dog men did not want them. Best not bother.
When I referred to using a Colby dog. I also meant one that has shown gaminess. Many older dog breeders, like the Colby family of today. Probably just considered the average Joe out there, as someone just wanting a show dog with the Colby name. Being a younger non competitive generation of the Colby family, selling dogs off the older Colby name. Would prefer to play it safe.
A really good dog man, they could trust may get a different breeding off something hopefully checked out. Of course that is a lot of assuming on my part. I was really talking around a time period of say 25 years ago. This particular Colby person being in a State were serious competition is everywhere. Could have stepped up his game. But without visiting and talking would not know for sure.
Today, probably just another pipe dream. Cheers
WILLIAM JOSEPH LIGHTNER
William Joseph Lightner was born in Baltimore, Mary*land in 1877. His grandfa*ther started fighting dogs about 1850 and developed a game strain, never sold a dog. Mr. Lightner’s father and uncles continued winning, never sold a dog. When Mr. Lightner was six years old he used to watch the fights which were held every week in the old ice*house in Baltimore.
About 1894 he entered the prize ring as a fighter himself and made a little money around the east, he also was a singer, he had a wonder*ful deep bass voice. In the late 1890’s he, two sparring partners and 4 dogs started west and fought their way to the Pacific Coast. Most of his fighting was bare nuckle fights for side bets in locals not known to the Police and were finish fights. His hands were all busted up and look like sledge hammers. Some of the fights were on river boats, where they had dog and cock fights at the same time. He speaks of the Illinois River and of course, the Mississippi and Missouri rivers. He made a lot of money in Or*egon, where the lumberjacks had a bully in most every camp and money meant very little. However, Cripple Creek was his favorite for winning as the altitude affected new-comers, both dogs and men. This trip to the Pacific Coast was a highly profitable one, from a money standpoint, as he still had 2 dogs left, and $8,000. However, he was shot thru the shoul*der which ended his own career as a fighter but he still sang in saloons and fought dogs. He stayed with Jim Corbett in San Francisco a while to rest up.
He then started back, ending in Cripple Creek, Colorado, where dog fights were the chief sport. He got more dogs from home - at one time he had 32 bitches.
He got married and Mrs. Light*ner became a fanatic on dog fights. She was a smart operator and match maker and they never lost a fight for 42 years with dogs they backed themselves.After the boom died out in Cripple Creek, they had a lot of dogs and no place to fight, so they sold a few and cut the kennel production.
Mrs. Lightner died suddenly. Her picture in the front room always had a fresh flower in front of it.
Mr. Lightner was the best friend a man ever had, and the worst enemy. He has been a tremendously powerful man, hands like hams, big boned, 200 lbs. and skinny.
William J. Lightner died on Febru*ary 13 ,1959. He and his wife are bur*ied in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
Posted 17th August 2013 by trustno1
Those who years back, bought up all those soft and hard bound books of Pete Sparks and the older blood lines magazines. Will find all this info and much more. About two years ago, I spoke with one of the personnel of the Blood lines magazine. She told me at that time they still had some of the older printed blood lines magazines of the 50's and 60's that still could be bought.
I had all of the Spark's books and about all of the old blood lines magazines from back to the late 40's. Was interesting to read articles written by Tudor/Saddler/Heinzl and other old/ old timer dog men. I gave all of my books etc and dog papers to V.J. He said that really nice red hard bound book Spark's had on the late 60's and 70's dogs was stolen from him. Cheers
I've seen 2 quality Colby dogs. Both of them were off Colby's Otis out of littermate sisters, and this was back in the 90s. One went over an hour in a check with a son of Ch.Tramp, and I watched the cousin, off Otis, snatch the teeth out and about a ruin a quality champion dog in about 45 minutes. I saw some pretty decent dogs off both of those males, but as far as I know, they were never bred back to any quality Colby bitches.
I talked to V.J. last night. He told me he did go and check out those Colby dogs that were close by him. Said he did not like what he saw. That some of the locals had tried some out. Were not up to scratch compared to the more popular bloodlines being used. So there may be a good one here and there. From so many years of non competition, it appears bred on name only to long. The Colby line has seen it's heyday. Best use what we have today and preserve the purer tested lines we have.
I still feel after chatting on line with some dog men that have had some of the best Vise Grip dogs. This still is a excellent line to preserve or cross with, if someone feels they need to add some new blood to their dogs. I see a lot of Pit Bull in such smaller packages. Was looking at a black & white bitch that I believe is now deceased, bred off a Vise Grip dog that was killed by two R. Ridgeback hounds. Bitch Looks like the old timey Tudor/Carver Black Widow blend. Stated weight was only 34 pounds. Without knowing and just looking at the picture. Could have passed for a 42 to 44 pound dog. Just, IMHO.
I reckon, I just like well built smaller old time Carver and some of the Mayfield blended dogs. Even though later in my last years in the dogs. I was trying to breed up bigger dogs since most of the lines had gotten bigger on the average. Mostly from the Paladin crosses and the Jocko-Red Boy crosses and Bully Son - Eli dogs. To each his own. Cheers
I used to own a bitch named Nowell's Creeper, who was down from the Otis dog Frosty speaks of. She was given to me by Conan, but after awhile I gave her away myself, because she was thin-boned and very shy.
Never did anything with her, so I can't comment on her quality ultimately. There are a lot of supposed Champions in her ancestry, and I have no way to know if this is true (or at "what level" these supposed Champions competed at).
One thing I pride myself on, however, is the ability to SEE the athleticism, etc. in a dog, just by the way it moves. It was my opinion that Creeper, in addition to being shy, was a gangly and not very athletic animal. Also, her skin and bones were very thin, and she simply did not have the rugged durability that my dogs had.
In addition to extreme gameness, another reason my dogs are able to repeatedly and consistently go and ultimately win in 1.5 to 3 hour-long fights is because they are TOUGH (thick bones, thick hide). At the top of the food chain, you need extreme athleticism, supported by thick bones, and protected by a thick hide ... all driven by extreme gameness ... if you expect to win a long, drawn out fight. After observing the shy, gangly, thin-boned, thin-skinned Creeper for a few months, I just made the decision to give her away ... as there was no way in hell she belonged next to my other bulldogs.
Unfair decision? Premature?
Possibly.
But I have have been able to keep the same family of dogs in the winner's circle, for more than 2 decades, because I know an athlete when I see one ... right away when they're young ... and I didn't see what I like to see in that particular animal.
Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Nope not Unfair or Premature. I myself have a hard time feeding a dog that I don't like looking at. I'm holding one for a friend right now and the only reason she is still here is because I like her build and looks and her attitude is great.
:-bdQuote:
Originally Posted by wrknapbt
I see both family of dogs were on the east coast at the start old plantation days .lightner took his west ,pretty interesting history on those 2 lines .
Out of the 2 sons of Otis I saw, Banditg was the one with the athletic ability, though I wouldn't call him a high ability dog. He had some ability, some intelligence, and he was quick on his feet. That helped him a lot the day I saw him. Bandit was off Thistle 2, the sister to Terra who sired Yankee and Apollyon.
Yankee, on the other hand, didn't have much ability. He had about average mouth, but he could take it in spades. Yankee was a brother to the Apollyon dog behind Creeper.
How would you compare your TB with evolution. Would you say your are better than his on a whole ?Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
What is a TB?
Tombstone bolio dogs
How would I compare my Tombstone/Bolio dogs to Evo's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
I have never seen any of Evo's dogs go, let alone enough to form an opinion, but their win record speaks for itself, as does mine.
It's not like the Waccamaw dogs, where I have personally seen several of those dogs go, and MOST were utter pieces of shit, with one (at best) average plug "with mouth" ...
So I don't have any experience actually seeing Evo's dogs go.
Genetically, Evo has RBJ dogs in all his dogs, whereas mine are more pure Bolio/Carver.
I actually admire Evo's bloodline and longstanding adherence to his preferred breeding combinations.
Realistically, all egos aside, at even weight, there are some of his dogs that would whip some of mine, and some of my dogs that would whip some of his.
Historically-speaking, there has never been a bloodline that has whipped more individuals of my line than mine has whipped individuals of that line, if they've faced-off 3 or more times. Never.
There are a few lines that have broken even, but the fact is most have lost every time (or most of the time) they've faced mine.
The closest thing, genetically, to Evo's dogs that mine have faced would be dogs from CML. There have been 3 Vise-Grip dogs that have faced 3 CML dogs, with the results being 2 VG wins, 1 CML win.
One of CML's dogs lost game (his personally), the other quit (owned by Openhouse).
Meanwhile my dogs won 2 out of 3. The 1 VG dog that lost (a son of Diamond Girl named Full Force Combine's Broad Axe) was matched with zero experience into Openhous'e Ch Waycan, who was going for #4. It went :53, I believe, and Broad Axe was picked up exceptionally game, and Waycan couldn't be matched again.
The other two times my dogs won.
Eloheem beat CML directly, I think, but CML's dog was extremely game also (I don't remember how either was bred).
The other time, we faced Openhouse again, and his Tito Trinidad was much bigger, but still quit in :52 to my Ch Vengence.
The "Overall" Record of my dogs versus CML's RBJ/BT dogs?
Regarding straight wins?
My dogs won 67% of the time.
Those dogs won 33% of the time.
Regarding winning OR losing game?
My dogs had a 100% "win or lose game" quotient (0% quit).
Those dogs had a 67% "win or lose game" quotient (33% quit).
So, although Evo's are bred similarly to CML's, I can't say for sure how mine would do against his, but I am sure it would depend on the dogs used ...
Jack
I didn't ask you about waccamaw ! I was simply curious what you thought about evolutions dogs .i have heard many people say evolution hands down ,as far as the waccamaw dogs go not long ago you said they had some of the best redboy jocko dogs .Evolution said WAC had good solid dogs .
Sonny, I know this is you, which is why I mentioned Wac's dogs ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
You're trying to stir the pot (once again), wearing a fake hat (Smokey), even though you've already been banned. So, after this post, I will ban you again (as Smokey this time :lol:).
I am pissed off at Evo too, because he always tries to sneak in his fukking ads into the General Section, and he is banned for 30 days for not listening to my instructions.
However, I have 100x more respect for Evo as a breeder than you, as his dogs are legitimately good and beat legitimate opponents ... unlike yours.
As far as all these "many people" saying ANYONE's dogs can beat mine "hands down," I have bred more winners than all of these nameless dumbasses put together.
Nobody's opinion means anything to me, as they don't have my win record, nor anything close to my percentages.
Regarding your question, I have already given my best, honest answer: the closest line to Evo's my dogs have faced 3x or more, to get a feel for what would happen, would be CML"s dogs, which are 1-2 against mine, while mine are 2-1 against them.
That is my best guess, but ultimately it means nothing.
If we put 10 of my best dogs together, against any line under the sun, I am quite confident mine would win more than 5 of them.
As things stand, over the last 24 years, mine have won 87% of the time overall. That is all I can tell you pal ... and now you will be banned again.
Jack
PS: I have a PM from Evo about what he thinks of your dogs, Sonny ... and remember, he is feeding one of mine, not one of yours :lol: