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Jack if you don't mind over all the years of breeding dogs if you had to breed to a male outside of your own kennel,or input a new line which one would you pick and why? ( Not including Mayday or wac dogs) Just a fun question i was interested in what other lines and dogs you thought highly of. thank you
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigfoot23
If I could start over, I would simply have taken better care of the great dogs I did have.
I would have fed them raw from the start, I would have bred to Hammer more, and I would not have been so quick to sell a good one.
I would never have bred to the Wac dogs at all, but I would have kept one or two of the Mayday dogs.
I also never would have sold Coca Cola and would have kept a male and female out of her and Charlie.
There simply is no other line of dogs that I like better than mine, or that wins in any higher percentage than mine.
What I might have done, however, is more Eli-type crosses, as well as added more pure Carver/Boomer-type dogs, and perhaps experimented that way more (just to look for a blockbuster).
But when it comes to consistent, dependable, smart, tough, scrappy, well-tempered dogs that do whatever they have to do, to win, I had that down pretty well and wouldn't change a thing ... except my own competence and judgment in what I did with some of them.
Jack
Jack, did you and KC ever make the poncho/vengeance cross? And also I would like to change the OP question a bit. If there never was a poncho, hammer or coca cola. Do you feel there may possibly have been a different direction that would have struck your fancy?
No, unfortunately that never happened. However, I did breed Poncho's sister Missy to Gonzalez' No Regrets, which is the same blood as KC has, and the results were outstanding. There were 4 pups produced, all males. Of those males, the following were the results:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wsk
♢ Taylor's Timex (2xW) was an ace dog that only started his career at 6 years old, but won 2. He was a fabulous, powerful ear dog, that would take absolute control of the head deep on the ear, render you helpless, break you down, get you tired, and then go into the throat and finish. His gameness was never tested, because nothing could touch him, and nothing would scratch back into him. His superiority was exceptional.
♢ Vise-Grip's Super Fly was just an extremely game dog, with no ability, but absolutely would never quit. He produced at least one Champion (Hurricane Kennels' Ch Hatchet Sam), who himself produced Pompano Kennels' Gr Ch Hatchett II.
♢ Vise-Grip's Raja was the only dog that came out brindle, like No Regrets, but Raja was a red-brindle/rednose and looked like a Red Tiger (hence the name Raja). The other dogs were all buckskin like Missy. Raja was also the only one who wouldn't fight by 12 months. He was killed/culled as "cold" by his owner, who was a stupid man for doing so. A lot of people don't know this, but some of these Indian dogs take awhile to start. Interestingly, another son of No Regrets, also named Tiger, was the famous and very game Ablizin's Tiger (1xW). A lot of people don't know this, but Tiger was originally owned by my friend/mentor, Lineman, for the first 4 years of his life. Tiger wouldn't hit a lick either, even by 4 years of age, and so Lineman eventually traded him back to Patrick for something else. Patrick put the dog with a guy named Wayne, who got Tiger started (a yard change can do that), and after that Patrick sold Tiger to Dmitri Ablizin, the Russian idiot with more dollars than sense. Anyway, if the owner of Raja would have been patient, Raja might have turned out to be a helluva dog. He had carpet for skin, and the biggest/most rugged set of bones on him that any little dog ever had. It would have taken a Bengal tiger to kill him. Raja was rolled a few times, wouldn't start, yet no dog could so much as put a hole in his skin ... Raja's hide was that tough ... but he just wouldn't fight back. He was just a happy, powerful young boy, who again wouldn't hit a lick, but he was only 16 months and never given the proper chance to start.
♢ Latino Family's Energizer (1xL 2:45) was a 100% DG dog, whose first match (at 20 months) happened to be into Wonder Boys' Ch Pup Pup. Pup had killed Strickly Business' Ch Smokin' Joe in :53, and killed HOE's Radical (2xW) in :35. Ch Pup Pup was a devastating dog, and Energizer was just average (except in his heart and his toughness, which were phenomenal). Well, when Energizer faced Ch Pup Pup, Pup just overpowered Energizer for the first hour ... but couldn't put a dent in him. Where other dogs had died to what Pup Pup could do, Energizer was just getting warmed up, and by 1:30 had pulled even with Pup Pup. Back-and-forth it went, until Pup Pup hit a bleeder and Energizer started losing blood. Too stupid to pick up, Latino Family let their dog go ... and go ... and go ... until 2:45, to where Energizer, sommersaulted, crawled, rolled, flopped, and tried to get there by :10 but couldn't beat the clock. After that fight, I had at least 10 high-profile dogmen from the NY area tell me Energizer was the gamest dog they had ever seen in their life (including Latino Family, LeFonze, Brooklyn Knights, etc.) Latino Ray told me he wanted to buy "anything with Missy blood in it," but I told him he should have kept the one he had.
Anyway, hope this answers your question. I am 100% positive that my blood would cross phenomenally-well with Killer Combine blood, because it already has crossed phenomenally-well with the No Regrets blood.
As far as which way I would go, if I did not have my blood, I can't imagine it, sorry. There simply IS NO blood out there that has consistently beaten mine. For example, Wonder Boys' Ch Pup Pup was the first Andy Capp dog my dogs had faced ... and arguably THE BEST Andy Capp dog (being a Candidate for Dog of the Year). Well, that great dog just barrrrrely beat what was basically just an "average, game" dog of mine. (Energizer wasn't as good as his brother Timex). Yet in our losing effort, we showed absolutely game, and absolutely tough, and we basically fought for 3 hours until we died. The other 2 times my dogs have faced Andy Capp dogs, my dogs won (in less than 1 hour) and those dogs QUIT.
So I sure wouldn't "switch lines" to that ... and it's pretty much been that way with every other line my dogs have ever faced.
IFFF we lost, it was invariably DG, and when we beat the other stuff, those dogs QUIT to mine, so it's pretty hard to "get excited" about the idea of switching to something else that isn't as game or dependable as what I had.
Jack
^^^^^ great read. I always enjoy reading post by owners/breeders that have keep up with what they have put together. It's always the bet source of info on dogs.
Great informative post jack.
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Originally Posted by CA Jack
I haven't been all to impressed with the tight Andy Capp dogs. to me, they don't have the heart necessary. I've seen great midnite dogs, and should click since it's basically a bolio eli cross. Energizer was game as can be, but Nazi... Well... I'll just say I had about 100 people in Mexico say he's the Gamest dog on the planet. Not sure about his pedigree. I'm sure Jack has it.
Thank you. The Boyles stuff in general hasn't been too impressive to me, gameness-wise (with a few notable exceptions).Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
It's kinda funny, in 1998 Energizer won an actual poll taken on Vietnam's old messageboard as to "The Gamest Dog of the 1990s" ...
And, I would bet there would be a high percentage chance that El Nazi would win such a poll taken for "The Gamest Dog of the 2000s" by anyone who saw him go, which (as you mention) was a lot of folks south of the border ...
El Nazi was basically 5/8ths my breeding, 3/8ths Buck breeding, and by all accounts one helluva bulldog.
Jack
interesting. Nazi is 15.625% RedboyJocko. through Daisy Mae ROM.
LOL, that must have been the reason :lol:
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Originally Posted by CA Jack
of course... predominantly vise grip... But a bit of rbj in my opinion.. doesn't hurt. . you just can't say.. Not a drop.. lol. . It's got a good tablespoon on a glass of it in there. lol. regardless.. I may be sending TQ. to breed to El Nazi next heat
I know why you put that there :)Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
Remember, my debate with the dearly-departed Sonny was over badDEST (killingest/multi-winningest), never whether the RBJ dogs were consistently-good :)
Now then, I was actually considering starting another thread about MOST CONSISTENT ... and that is a whole other deal :mrgreen:
Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
please don't. lol. Nazi wasn't a killer if killers. but he beat one with no muzzle!!
LOL
Exactly ... and, in my heart, I have always preferred the dog that will come from behind to stop a killer than the killer itself.
Of course it's nice to have both, but somewhere in the heart of every true dogman (not nec. dogfighter) is a special spot for the animal that just WON'T QUIT to a killing ... and who stops the killer in the end :hatsoff:
As a side note, and back on topic, the original poster asked the question whether my dogs would cross well with Killer Combine's dogs.
Not only did it work out well with the Energizer dog mentioned, but has anyone really studied the pedigree of Hollingsworth's Dolly?
Dolly's sire, Yazoo Cody, is basically Lady In Red's sister Reba bred to an Indian Sonny dog (like what's behind Vengeance / Midnight) in Gr Ch Rowdy bred to Tonka's sister Boni Maroni.
Take a look at the top 1/8th of her pedigree, Hook's Gr Ch Rowdy, and compare that to Killer Combine's Gr Ch Vengeance ... it's basically the same blood that's way behind Midnight/Vengeance :-?
Jack
Looked up Nazi and some photos. I absolutely hate it when that happens to a dog.
There is a dog right here in Texas that won the same way. Not 2 hours, but over the 90 min mark. Looks exactly like that dog now. It's a shame. The dog he went into was a devastating face dog of Red Rock breeding, but the other dog was just that game. Unbelievable really.
There are some phenomenal animals out there no one knows about.
I agree 1000% People that have matched dogs 20 years, said that Nazi was so game and took such punishmen, tthat it made them doubt what the hell they were doing and whether it was right or wrong, this person is a psychopath, for him to stop and think... must've been a beating. and he won!!Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I agree, the title, "Gamest Dog of X," is entirely subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel
There are hundreds of incredible displays of gameness on the part of these dogs ... from rolls out in the backwoods where dogs are rolled to death for the hell of it ... to little podunk matches, where two first-timers go to the bitter end (with only 4 people watching) ... to major events, where two big-name dogs meet. etc.
If a dog dies DG how does it get gamer than that? I guess this is where you have to start splitting hairs.
If a dog dies DG because "he ran out of blood" ... that might not be the same level of gameness as it would take to get your face eat off (as the dogs we're talking about did).
There is no way to really tell which of these dogs is "gamer" ... as each dog faced a similar style, each dog eventually prevailed and won, and each dog suffered the same fate.
The only real difference is one went 90+ min on a (presumably) smaller card, while the other went 2:10 on a huge international convention.
Neither dog will never be able to go again; both dogs deserve to have the balls bred off them forever.
Jack
I know who you're talking about (you know him quite well) ... and he said that to me too ... that it made him question his involvement in these animals ... when he is usually known as being pretty freakin hardcore.Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
Jack
You are correct in your entire reply and I agree, 100% with your reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
For these dogs to prove this type of gameness is, yes, incredible. But to shift gears, when is enough enough and you should pick that dog up. Personally, call me a softy, but I just can't let my dog get to that point. I really don't think I can. This is a dog that, if he does survive, will remain in hiding for the remainder of his life, which is fine for him, but a hassle for any legal living citizen. Can't share it with anyone really without risk. If you do pick him up, you never knew he was THIS game, but you have a dog with little to fewer handicaps. If you leave him down and he survives this, you KNOW what kind of game he is, but you have a dog with half a head and health issues to manage.
Just rambling and I'm not a psychopath, so no doubt, this type of thing with these dogs makes me question anything done with them in this regard. Then you have the other side of the coin. THESE DOGS WOULD NOT EXIST if this had never been experimented with/trained/schooled/bred for, etc.
AH, the double edged sword cuts both ways so deep.
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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel
Very, very well said NQK.
To put a punctuation mark on that, yes, the story of Ozzie's Ch Homer is a hallmark and testimony to the gameness of these dogs ... but was it "really better" to let him go out all the way ... and actually die ... or would it have been BETTER to pick that fabulous little dog UP ... and maybe not have such a great story to tell ... but to have the best little dog you could possibly have STILL ALIVE to breed to for the future :idea:
Jack
PS: And speaking of gameness, not only was Ch Hammer an extremely game dog ... who never committed a turn in his life (and neither did his son Poncho) ... and not only did he beat Lou Lewis' Chainsaw in 1:58 to win his own Championship (and I'll leave it up to the reader to figure out how Chainsaw got his name--as that's what Hammer looked like he ran into, after he won) ... but Ch Hammer's brother Jesse (2xW, 1xL) died in the act of crawling-back to his opponent at just over the 2:00 mark.
That is true, 100% gameness ... to die in the act of crawling back.
It can't possibly get any gamer than that :idea:
I haven't personally witnessed many of the truly truly deep deep game dogs. Seen a few.
Here's on of the family of dogs I like to feed. His name was Lucan and his tombstone reads, "If any dog can, Lucan".
He went over 2 hours with no turns and no holds. Extremely game dog. Acted like a puppy dog in person. Not real strong in the back end (like some Alligator dogs come) but man, smart smart smart and near Ace. I've got a couple of dogs with him on top and bottom and he and just a few others are dogs I like to focus on. Much like Jack around Hammer/Poncho stuff.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=11216
I'll add my 2 cents. Generally when a dog like Nazi originally takes the punishment that puts him in that position, 9 times out of 10 the dog dies even if you pick them up at that point. The fact that Nazi took that, and kept pushing along is paramount to anyone that wants to talk about gameness. Dogs like Nazi will make you question such things, as it should when it happens. What Nazi had to endure to live afterwards, with all type of professional aftercare, is amazing. Not only did the dog show unbelievable heart, he showed the same will to live.
That type of risk is always there, and unless you have that type of professional care available to you, your dog is going to pass. So do you pick him up and have him die, or do you leave him down and let him go out on his shield, if need be? You should be prepared for such things because they can, and will, happen.
As a side note, I'd breed every bitch I have to Nazi if I were able.
Good post, Frosty!
Very good point Frosty.
+3
I apologize for straying off topic but since you mentioned Yazoo Cody (who happens to be in all my dogs:)... I was talking to T.Gibson yesterday and acquired a pic of the Baby Lively dog, half sister to Dolly also being sired by Yazoo Cody and she herself was a great producer. I'm sure it's not a big deal to most but just as Jack takes such pride in his line, I'd like to show off a kinda rare picture. Enjoy :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=6736
Thanks for sharing MRBLUEPRINT nice looking dog!
Sorry I missed this, Mr. Blueprint. Thank you for your contribution :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MRBLUEPRINT
It very much is a big deal to post photos like this, because the more people who follow your lead, and post their old photos, the cooler and more complete this site will be over time :-bd
Jack