Just wanted to get opinions on boomer rom dogs. And if you had sny how were they.
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Just wanted to get opinions on boomer rom dogs. And if you had sny how were they.
I like em as a out. Have these like em alot. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=24273
I really like the breeding on that Back Street Truez Snake girl. Good bred dogs you have there. I would be surprised if you told me the Snake Girl did not have a hard mouth. Cheers
I see you know a lot about the V.J stuff have a buddy whom use it with the Vietnam lil spike stuff was thinking about adding some of it to the backstreet truez bitch we have!Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Emmitt are you referring to Cottingham's Boomer? There is someone I talk with that should know those dogs well. Called this evening but caught me in the middle of watching my favorite TV series Once upon a time. May call be back later this week. Will ask if I do not forget to. Cheers
Sami the Arabs boomer. Pit island kennels
Me and my buddy went up north to get 2 right off of boomer and 1off of boomer jr. Neither off of boomer made the cut. The boomer jr male was ok and also had a pretty nice mouth on him as we'll. but personally I had better success with the haymaker dogs in my time. Just my experience with them. Might be different for someone else
No i agree the Hap / Haymaker Holland type dogs i always liked better.
Thanks for the advice fellas
One of our members Wrap Em Up. Has just made a heavy Holland breeding. The article and pedigree was just posted last week. Check with that breeder. Cheers
My Buddy has an inbred "Sami" BOOMER male bt I LOVE MY Bingo/Haymaker blood hasn't let me down yet
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=23524
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=23580
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...&dog_id=403104
Like Doug the best
you liked the right one JUDGE'S BUCK put some good one's on the ground thanks tj
I've heard good
Nothing wrong with those dogs at all, they outcross well. Even a few o the pure ones get down. Most don't like the prices or his pretty peds so they hate on his dogs without ever owning one or enough of em to really say so. Wouldn't part with the bitch i have.
I don't know about most people hating on Boomer dogs, but dogs generally earn a bad reputation for a few reasons. The owner himself and his practices, the amount of times a stud has been bred, and the dogs off him.
I personally don't like Boomer dogs, based on the opinions of others I trust for those reasons. They're all in the tri-state area and have seen a lot more Boomer dogs than I ever will, and they've probably seen more than everyone here on this thread. I have a few pups with some Boomer blood in them, so I'll have a little something to go on with these to see what they've added or taken away from what I already have here.
I like the MIMS ,HAYMAKER KATIE MARLOWE DOGS
I just like how the red boy line has taken so many paths and branched off into lines within the line. You can go Boomer, or hunterr red, Deacon, Cottingham, Tants stuff, mims, bailey stuff, etc etc. All the same but different.
ALL THE SAME BUT SOME BETTER
.....and when you breed your dog, be it to a boomer dog or whatever else lets not forget the pups get 50% from each parent so as far as them adding or taking away from your program is bit of a twisted statement. If one doesn't think they are improving when making a breeding what's the point of making it at all?
I have to add my $0.02 here on the subject of these dogs. I realize that it is a popular bloodline, and I am sure it has been with good reason, but honestly I never been able to share the excitement about the Redboy dogs as so many others have. Neither as a beginner nor as a 20-year veteran.
Back when I first got in, longtime Redboy breeder Tony Robinson (of Apache and Crusher fame -- who owned Truman/Trinx' brother Bodine--as well as a couple other Hollingsworth dogs--which is why I called him) told me directly, "Jack (the Hollingsworth dogs) are even gamer than my Redboy dogs.") So I never bothered to get into them, as I didn't see any reason to demote what I had. And, over the years, everything I have personally ever seen (or heard about), when facing my own dogs, confirms my initial impression.
Believe me, I am well aware of all the great dogs that have come down from this line. I am well aware that these Redboy dogs are supposedly bred for gameness. However, I can only speak from my own experience and (I am not trying to brag, but) every single cross I have ever seen (or gone into) has quit to my stuff. Every single one, except a lone individual dog many years ago (Garrett's Spike) who died DG to Gr Ch Zukill in :48. The rest have all quit, including a daughter of Ch Bozack who quit to Zukill's sister Volcha in 2:12. (I don't know what the bottom side was of the bitch, exactly, but I believe it too was Redboy, possibly Termite / Triple-Ott Red).
This also includes my Pretty Boy dog, whose first fight was over a Jeep/Redboy mix, bred by Rockbottom and G. Long, shown by M. Pinkerton. I don't know the exact breeding, but these are all topnotch guys who are behind the "who's who" of the Jeep/Reboy cross (Long's Werdo/Pinky, etc.). Yet their dog couldn't whip Pretty Boy (who was only 16 months old at the time) and conditioned by a rank beginner. Yes, the contest went 2:42, but Pretty Boy was a mediocre dog at best (though deeply game), and this Jeep/Redboy dog finally quit to him. Again, so much for legendary gameness.
In the meantime, I have rolled into several supposedly badass "battle crosses" involving this blood. My Sun Demon dog stopped Holland's Smuggler (1xW) in :40, and U-Nhan-Rha stopped Smuggler's brother in less time. What made it more embarrassing is that Sun Demon was hog-fat coming off the chain into a conditioned dog ... and was the bottom dog all the way ... until the last :05 ... which is when Smuggler quit (the moment he got tired also and fell behind) ... while Sun Demon had been gasping for breath and was bottom dog the entire time ... and had only got to his feet for :05. Meanwhile, U-Nhan-Rha was 3 lb lighter than his opponent and kicked that dog's ass the entire time. Again, there was not a drop of "legendary gameness" that I saw (except, of course, once again from my dogs).
In other rolls, my Silverback dog absolutely decimated some sort of Redboy/L.G. battlecross (I don't remember the exact breeding, but it was clean and topnotch), as did Ms. Bobbi who decimated another Redboy/L.G. "battle cross," bred similarly. In both cases, my dogs were smaller, and in both cases these "battle crosses" had to be picked up in :12 or less, neither wanting anymore of what they were getting. So, again, it's not like there was a tit-for-tat going on, where sometimes mine lost/quit, sometimes they won ... it was mine always won, the others always quit (or were picked up looking bad).
In another actual contest that I remember clearly, my PonchoBack dog stopped another absolutely topnotch cross utilizing this blood, UWK's My Man (brother to Gr Ch Rose Red) in 2:36. Yes it went 2:36, yes both dogs were truly superior animals, but yes again the Redboy-mix QUIT to my dog. The only absolute gameness that was displayed once again came from one of mine.
I even tried to incorporate this blood into my program, seeing how my dogs would "mix" with this blood, when I bred Cadillac III to Perfect. The result was not some new "grand slam" iconic breeding, but rather the typical mixed result that most people get when the mix dogs together. Only two pups lived: Polar Ice grew up to be a game, rough dog ... while Red Missy supposedly turned out to be a short-winded cur. I was batting 50% which is not good news IMO.
You see, when I bred that same bitch Perfect to U-Nhan-Rha, I got an all-game litter, including a Champion and a 2xW, 1xGL, and in this litter the other dogs in the litter all were fast, game, and talented. By contrast, when bred to Cadillac III, both dogs were slow and ponderous: one was slow, ponderous, but game and rough ... while the other was slow, ponderous, short-winded, and not game. As a matter of fact, one of the sons of U-Nhan-Rha/Perfect, Ch Red Bull, defeated yet another Redboy dog, a son of Ch Bear, for #2, also stopping him in under an hour.
The last battle between my stuff and the Redboy blood occurred toward the end of last year, when Prime Ape came from way back to beat some Eli/Redboy cross (where I don't know the exact breeding either), who (like the "My Man" dog that PonchoBack beat) was also devastating ... but who, ultimately, was neither fast enough, smart enough, nor game enough to hang with one of mine till the bitter end.
So, I am sorry to step on anyone's toes, but I personally just can't get excited when I see that stuff in a pedigree. To me, these dogs lower intelligence and diminish speed. They are not very bright and they're not very fast, at least not the ones I have seen, and these are two of the primary assets I personally breed for that distinguish my dogs from most other lines. To make things worse, the level of gameness that they supposedly add may be a bonus to some lines, but it is actually a demotion to the consistent level of gameness in my line. The only truly positive thing I have seen out of these dogs is they tend to throw a rather large frame, and (when crossed) they seem to throw the potential for a pretty heavy mouth. But I have never seen a single individual that I would call either very fast or very smart ... or (I hate to say it) very game. Not compared to my dogs they're not.
Maybe I have just been "unlucky" in the individuals I have seen (or that my dogs have gone into) ... but that "lack of luck" has happened too many different times, mixed-up too many different ways, for me to ever want to incorporate it in my yard (if I ever decided to breed dogs again).
I am not talking shit; I am just stating what I have directly seen or heard about from reliable sources in actual contests. I am fully aware that I have not seen them all and that there are some truly great dogs of this line, but I honestly don't think they're as high percentage as what people hope them to be. Not by a longshot.
Jack
Duly noted. I on the other hand have had remarkable success breeding the redboy jocko line into the Buck Hollingsworth line. The original macho was one of the best I ever saw, machobuck won his first at 14, third fourth and 5th within a 14 week period traveling 24 hours to NC twice. However, I did cautiously select the rbj stuff from only daisy Mae rom, and awesome baby rom. Do keep in mind as well. You had quite a bit of good dogs from the Katana Poncho cross, and I believe she had a fair amount of rbj.
Duly noted backatcha :)Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
It is my opinion that the Buck/Hollingsworth dogs, as well as the "magic mix" of Jocko, added something to the Redboy dogs.
In other words, the athleticism is not coming from the Redboy blood IMHO.
Some of them are absolutely beautiful dogs, but they are slow IMO and I haven't seen any pure specimens that I would consider either fast or intelligent.
(Not saying there aren't any, I just haven't seen any, and I have seen alot of them.)
Again, the Hollingsworth/Buck blood behind Macho is, IMO, a massive part of the success of that dog (along with "that magic mix" of the Jocko blood).Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
No one can question Gr Ch Machobuck either, who not only was a great performer and producer, but one of the most incredible-looking dogs I have ever seen as well. I mean, he was just a specimen :exclamation:
Pedigree-wise, however, Machobuck was 50% Buck/Hollingsworth which (again) I think is the most consistently-game blood on planet earth. There is also something to the Yellow blood, that RBJ mix in particular, which likewise was magic ... and so too with the Buck/Hollingsworth dogs added to it in particular. Daisy Mae and Awesome Baby are both great producers, no doubt, but I have never seen any of that blood, that I liked personally, unless it had a massive amount of Buck/Hollingsworth in it (as yours did).
My beef was with "pure Redboy" dogs, and other Redboy crosses in general (without the Buck/Hollingsworth influence).
They just have not impressed me, nor done well against my dogs ... this includes several rolls with some legendary dogmen ... to lots of matches, many at the absolute highest level the sport offers ... the result is invariably the same: my dogs win and those dogs quit.
But sure, if you add my favorite blood in the world to it, (Buck/Hollingsworth/my stuff) I think the gameness/athleticism/smarts goes WAY up.
Athleticism and smarts in particular.
I am also not talking giving a thumbs-down Yellow dogs, as I have seen some very badass members of this group also.
Yet, here again, the ability and power I personally attribute to the Jocko in the pedigree + the fact that it just happens to click in a special way.
It's the pure Redboy dogs (and non-Buck/Hollingsworth crosses) that unfortunately do nothing for me. Still, I am sure there are those I have not seen that I would think are, in fact, quite awesome.
Good point, but again Kitana was heavy Hollingsworth, on top of which I think Yellow *did* add some desirable traits that the Hollingsworth blood lacked. Also, even though Poncho himself was not devastating, his two sisters remain the hardest-mouthed bitches I have ever bred, Missy in particular, who fractured the muzzle/skull of every bitch she got her mouth on, until the slightly-bigger Screamer broke her leg when Missy was 7 years of age and the 2-lb bigger Screamer was in her prime. So I am not altogether sure the devastating offspring was just because of Kitana.Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
Also, Kitana was a 52 lb chainweight bitch ... but she was picked up to another big bitch ... which Wild Red Rose later stopped (and broke her leg) spotting this bitch 4 lb of weight ...
Still, there is no question that the Poncho/Kitana breeding produced an awesome, high-percentage litter ... where every dog was game, except one ... Murder ... who still beat a 6xW and a 1xW before he quit ... and that was to some freak mouthed dog whose trick was to amputate front paws (he would shake/bite so hard when he got there). I am not ashamed of any dog that can beat a Grand Champion + another winner and who only curs to something way out of the ordinary.
So good post,
Jack
Interesting. Yeah.. Good valid points. I've never had experience but for one. Ch. DINGO WAS A MURDEROUS hard scratching ace. Not sure if it's on here but he was off Yellow III and Low country 's Spice.. A pure rascal gyp out of pure rebel kennels stock. Similarily, Yellow II produced Ch. CRYBABY with Consuela. I really liked every dog I saw roll of Yellow II. In my opinion he was the best producing son of Yellow, but wasn't managed correctly. Frank Jacobs agreed with you. He said that the Redboy-Jocko dogs wouldn't be shit without the ability and styful finish that Jocko brought to the table. Others say the Jocko dogs wouldn't be shit if not for redboy gameness. I can agree with both. The latter statement holds true to Jeep Redboy dogs as well. But I will say. IN MY OPINION, few can boast what the redboy jocko buck hollingsworth can. 1996,2002,2003,2004 sdj Doy. .. When the judge was Jack Kelly, and reputable honest men had to vouch for the animal, and when you got a star next to the show for beating an old timer. Just my thoughts. Not to take away from the Waccamaw strain which has stood the test of time, and I am looking to incorporate with my Bull semen.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=30021
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=26308
It's not a twisted statement at all if you already know what your dogs produce on an average basis, and you can compare/contrast that with other breedings done. As for the improvement question. I do my breedings with my dogs for improvement, but I can't make the same statement about other people's bitches. I don't generally get the chance to judge someone else's female, and unfortunately, I can't look at a pedigree of a dog and decipher where the improvement could possibly come from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise
As someone that's owned Redboy crosses through my entire life in dogs, there is a lot of truth in what Jack says. There are so many of those dogs out there being bred without any rhyme or reason, that it tends to water it all down to a lot of nothing in a lot of cases. I've seen a ton of slow, dumb Redboy and/or Redboy/Jocko dogs along with an assortment of other Redboy crosses. One of the main reasons I never bred to Hunter Red, even when knowing the owners, is that the majority of dogs I saw off Hunter, or bred from him, were JUST like him. Even when Hunter was pushed back some generations, he was so prepotent that he was able to dominate the gene pool with a small influence.
A lot of the Redboy type dogs I have owned were never slow. They weren't always the sharpest tools in the shed, and that's one of the things I've always tried to correct over the years with the breedings I do. I've finally started making some headway to having dogs that, while they're not the Einstein of the dog world, they are a lot further along than they were at points some years ago. Generally, the stupid dogs get rid of themselves when they simply run into dogs that have more sense. So I've just tried to build off dogs with more sense. They are nowhere near what the image of Bolio dogs have, but they're climbing the ladder one step at a time.
A lot of people have the misconception that Redboy dogs, as a whole, are noted for gameness. Maybe at one time some years ago, you could say that when dogs were still relatively close to that particular individual. The Redboy dogs, as a whole, are probably only second to the Eli dogs to be the most peddled and heading down the road of ruination. It's hard for a popular line of dogs to be realistically known for something, especially gameness, when it's being pulled in every single direction and whim by every jerk off that fancies themselves the next person to change the game. If you want a line of dogs to be known for something, you have to breed for that something around dogs that have that something you're looking for. I know that's a rather simplistic statement, but that's the idea.
Well statedQuote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
X 2 :appl: @ Frostypaws
X 3
I have seen people breed dogs of my own that I would neither keep/feed nor breed to either (or, also, breed to in that direction ...).
That kind of stupidity, replicated over time, can ruin anything.
Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
Good post too.
I personally knew the Consuela bitch and Ch Crybaby. Crybaby seemed like a really eager, game dog to me.
There was a suggestion to roll Crybaby into Stormbringer, but it never happened, which is probably a good thing for Crybaby ... I could see him being willing to take his death to Stormy, but I can't see him whipping one side of him.
Jack
If im not mistaken on the cover of sdj 2002 august there is what was said to be recoreded as the longest match between two females at 4:40 BOTH bitches had redboy blood in them. Hooker red and Georgia girl. And if you look at the top spots on the ROM list Tab, Deacon,May day, yellow all have that blood in them too so i cant agree with the statement that they demote lines.
You are mistaken (50%).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise
The dog who won, Georgia Girl, was a heavy Hollingsworth bitch (3/4 Dolly/Polly on top), with Heavy Nigerino + a lil Chinaman on bottom. She was only 6% Redboy. The Hollignsworth/Chinaman dogs have done awesome too.
The dog who lost, Hooker Red, was indeed heavy Redboy, so you're right about that. But I do believe she was the one who eventually quit the the Hollingsworth cross, so please re-visit my first post about what Tony Robinson said about the Hollignsworth dogs vs. the Redboy dogs ...
:-t You either didn't really read what I said to Evo, or you have trouble with comprehending what you read, but I already addressed the issue of Yellow/Mayday, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise
Jack
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=4364
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=20953
Seriously,
This is splitting hairs. I guarantee you many bloodlines out there wish they've seen 4:40. It's a tribute to both bloodlines. MY OPINION, Bolio Tombstone adds extreme gameness, ability, durability, and front end finish (throat), face crunches, redboy jocko adds very good air, extreme gameness, thick skin, back end finish (styful), and find a way to win plan b and c dogs. Point is they both are a great line of bulldogs, which is why I base my yard on half from each. If I had to choose, it'd be a hard decision. I personally think my dogs take more after the Bolio tombstone lines, but I won't downplay the relevance of rbj blood as it is half of my genetic contribution.
Putting aside the numerous champions Gr. Ch. Yellow produced, and they are many. The forgotten breeding was the Yellow John x greens Sandy breeding, Produced Gr. Ch. John boy, Ch. Toro,, greens hitman 2x, and super gnats boots.. Who went 4:52 in his second beating the time of both aforementioned candidates. Anyhow, when it comes to these two lines, in my opinion... The two are the two very best. Rank em how you want
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...d=423&sex_id=3
Agree it's a tribute to both lines; I also believe splitting hairs (like splitting atoms) is sometimes necessary ... and can likewise sometimes be explosive :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
I actually believe more hair-splitting is necessary :idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
I think most Bolio/Tombstone dogs are thin-boned curs (Bolio more so;
By constrast the right Bolio/Tombstone dogs are some of the gamest/smartest best dogs on earth IMO.
In other words, you're not just selecting any B/T dogs, you're selecting BUCK and LADY IN RED DOGS, aren't you ;)
Same thing with "RBJ" dogs; some of those are long-haired, fat-tailed curs as well ... but the right RBJ dogs are what you just described. (Although I would say Bolio dogs are smarter and more prone to having a "Plan b and c" than RBJ dogs ...)
I think certain segments of these families are great ... while others are not so great.Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
I think the BUCK/Hollingsworth dogs are the best of their line (Boyles too) ... and Yellow-type dogs are the best of those dog. I realize there are some small, very private pockets of similar dogs that are also good, so I am speaking very broadly.
Quite frankly, I don't think your dogs have much Tombstone blood in there at all, and might more properly be called "Buck/Yellow" dogs ...
If I personally had to choose between pure Redboy and pure Buck/Hollingsworth, I would choose the Buck/Hollingsworth in a NY second ...
I think Machobuck was cleary a Buck dog with the bone density of Mayday. That density came from the Hollingsworth blood IMO, but of course there's no way to say for sure, it's just an opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
Well, again, I already acknowledged 2 things: 1) that I am well aware of all the great dogs down from certain Redboy elements, and 2) that the RB/JOCKO dogs in particular were magic, but I give a lot of that credit to JOCKO ... and Sandy was just another Vernon Jackson dog that created a similar "magic mix" ... And if you look at Jocko, you can see he is the one bringing the speed.
But that was also a long, long time ago ...
All I can say is the ones my dogs have faced in today's game have damned near all QUIT ... especially without any Yellow in there ... but sometimes with it in there. When they lose, it's not DG, it's by standing there taking the count. ALMOST ALWAYS. So I don't see how it can be called a "game" line ...
But at no time did I say there weren't any historically-game Redboy dogs, I am just talking about what I have experienced lately, and for quite some time.
In the present day, I think MOST of the "pure Redboy" dogs I have personally seen have not been anywhere near what I would call "game" ... and most have been slow and not too bright either. When I see "a pure Redboy dog," I am not thinking "game" ... I am thinking slow, dumb, so-so-game dog ... that will quit at some point.
People just assume that "pure Redboy dogs" are game on average ... or in high-percentage ... and I truly think they are NOT, not like the pure Hollingsworth dogs used to be, and not like my dogs are. They quit to mine almost every time.
Again, I am speaking of straight battlecrosses I see people making today, not of Yellow, or Yellow John's sons of times long passed. I am talking about TODAY ... of taking some "pure Redboy" dog ... and making a "battle cross" with it. I think most aren't worth a plug nickel, quite frankly. Not the ones I've seen at any rate.
Hooker Red is a great example of one who was (well, almost dead game). She was off of Crews' Rocky, a legitimately great producer. And HERE IS THE KEY: I am sure there are certain SELECTED great Redboy INDIVIDUAL producers ... but I don't think "the line itself" is anything to write home about.
Back in the day, when you said "Hollingsworth dog" ... you said GAME (essentially). It didn't matter which one you were pointing at, they were damned near all game, and you would either lose to it or it would take you 2+ hours to beat it (and you'd die after you did).
That same truth does not apply when you say "Redboy dog" ... not even close. It seems to me you're lucky to find a truly game Redboy dog.
That is my message and opinion, and of course others may differ :)
Jack
Some things are on point, some I agree, some is irrefutable. I agree, about the difference in bolio dogs and hollingsworth, it's why I made the breeding with hollingsworth bull. And yes. My dogs are mostly buck. .. Like Mr. Machobuck, but Machobear has more hollingsworth mixed in. Yes Machobuck was Buck in a Mayday body. .. Be it hollingsworth or yellow. And yes. . I believe redboy dogs have been over bred, but I've seen dogs off Hatfield's Taz consistently produce make you cry game dogs with a plethora of bitches. Who is a gamer line as a whole, tough to beat hollingsworth, I even think gamer than yellow or buck line slightly. . My absolute favorite breeding of all time was the Mayday - Blondie breeding. It was a masterpiece. A grand champion son of Grandchampion and best producing rbj dog of all time, bred to one of the best producing bitches of all time straight from old man Hollingsworth's yard. Bottom was out of a grand champion who who beat a grand champion bolio tombstone dog, to one of the best producing rbj gyps out of yellow from litters that were consistent. Mayday, choice, dragonlady, Madonna on top, Gr. Ch. Yellowbuck and ch. Piggy on bottom. I've tried to breed around that, adding tonka bear , deadlift, your stuff.. . Always keeping around the same %. 50-50..next few years will tell the tale.
:hatsoff:
I was right there at the beginning of the straight Red Boy x Cleo etc. crosses. Owned a full brother of Red Boy's litter formally owned by Louis Miles. The brindle black nose dog's name was Bouncer. I had another named Liz out of Red Boy and Martin's lady. Louis had a small yard of Red Boy dogs bred around Bass' Cleo.
Another dog man by the name of Rowell had another bitch named Fancy. Fancy was out of Bass' Tramp Red Boy x Bass' Cleo. Rowell bred up at least one cross of Davis' Chivo or Davis' Boomerang to Fancy. He got some match dogs off that breeding.
F. Jacob's also bred the Boze dog to his Hog bitch that was Red boy bred. There were other's that had those dogs as Red Boy was bred by Martin/Bass/ and Katie when each person owned Tramp Red Boy. The Red Boy dogs were real popular among the Pembroke Indians. A lot of those dogs not all came red/red nose and given Indian names. Great marketing scheme.
Now for the rest of the story and my experience with some Red boy dogs. First nothing was ever done with the Bouncer dog. He was a average dog with average ability. A ex Navy Seal by the name of R. Goodson took the dog and kept it for a pet.
Louis Miles swore to me one of his black bitches off Red Boy and Cleo was a game acting bitch and had a good mouth. Was a nice looking black bitch. I matched her into a bitch owned by Rex Byrd. Rex had a fast hard driving, shoulder biting dog. Miles Red Boy bitch curred and ran in less than ten minutes.
Later V. Jackson came down and rolled his young Banjo dog on my Liz bitch. Banjo was the better dog and since Liz had a gimp leg gave Liz to my brother. Liz was a game dog and had a full brother owned by Rowell named Ringo. Ringo was a very good dog. These two dogs were Red Boy x Bullet breeding.
Later V. Jackson matched my Stagger Lee bitch into one of Rowell's B. Davis x Fancy bred bitches. Was a good match but Stagger Lee out fought and out bit Rowell's dog two to one.
Later on down the road I rolled my little Jake dog on one of J. Spruill's dogs that outweighed my dog by a good ten pounds or more. Spruill had some smaller dogs but wanted to use this dog. He had bought this dog from Jacobs. This dog was red &white with a red nose and yellow eyes. Probably some of the Boze x Hog dog cross. I agreed to let it go for five but no longer than ten minutes due to the weight difference and my dog right off the chain. My little Jake dog had it rough for around five minutes. Till he shot in the back end and curred this big dog out. Spruill was furious as he had paid some good money for that dog.
My Face bitch was matched once into one of Jacobs Ch Red Boy bitches and later a extra rough Carver x Red Boy cross of Jacob and Johnson. My Face bitch curred and killed both these bitches in under ten minutes.
There were two other matches where Bass and Katie matched two different Red Boy bitches. One into Molly Bee and one into J. Johnson's Rage bitch. Both Red Boy bitches curred and died real fast after Molly Bee and Rage got their mouths on them. After both of those matches started and Bass saw what the out come was going to be. He hauled ass with all the gate money and did not honor his bets. Most dog men quit messing with Bass and he died not many years after that last match with the Rage bitch.
Now all this is my opinion and my in site. I had sorry dogs as well but I had some real go getters. When V.J. was at the top of his game. Bass or Katie never sent us any weights. I saw Straight /Red Boy dogs rolling or going against other Red boy dogs. They would go and go and scratch and scratch. But was no real damage was being done. When a hard biting, corner pile driving dog got one. It was over real fast.
Back then Bass liked to go around to us younger beginner dog men's yard. Challenge us to four week matches with him holding the forfeit. He was a real peach of a Guy. My friend A. Howle kept his dogs lean and in pre keep shape. Howle had some Cotton's Bullet x Carver's Tiger Jack dogs. Bass was down our way in a local get together and jab session. He was throwing out some weights and wanting to go in four weeks. So Howle took his weight on one of his Red Boy bitches. Had a neutral person to hold the forfeit. When the show went down. Howle beat Bass' Red BOY bitch dog like a red headed step child. Howle was competing and holding his own against dog men like M. Gainey so he had dogs with mouth and gaminess.
I was really surprised when I got to looking at all these newer bred dogs. To find so much Red Boy crossed to these other blood lines. Especially to good Carver lines that I felt were being diluted down with a lesser who knew how they were bred local bulldogs. So over time with Katie and Mims having control over this line and culling real hard and out crossing them. The dogs got much better.
Do not wish to sound like I am putting any ones dogs down. Have put off writing this. I had plenty of sorry dogs of my own. I was more comfortable with the pedigrees off my Coplin/Heinzl dogs than trying to figure out what the Red boy line came from. They were Katie's dogs and she was doing her thing. Was very successful I might add. I preferred to do my own thing. Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Nice history, as always, CYJ.
Ultimately, I too preferred doing my own thing.
As they say, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.
The best way to get dogs "like you want" is to breed those dogs which have those traits together, try to lock it in, and then "keep doing what you're doing."
If your dogs keep curring to everybody else's, then you're doing something wrong.
If everyone else's dogs keep curring to yours, then you're doing something right.
Sounds like you were doing something right.
Cheers,
Jack
Seems like there are times when splitting hairs is necessary, especially when it comes to dogs and the finer points of discussion. While I can't begin to even touch Mr. Y's experience with dogs coming right from Redboy, I can add my .02.
I would have to agree with him that somewhere, over time, those dogs did get a lot better. Somehow, those dogs got noted for gameness, and there's usually only one way to truly be noted for such things. The Redboy dogs that I've seen and/or owned that consistently showed the gameness those dogs were noted for came from Deacon, Mike & Co's Mangler, and Voyles' Little John. We're all aware who Deacon was during his day. The Deacon dogs I'll speak on were Frosty Paws and Ch.Becky. Mangler was from a breeding of Bingo/Bliss and was located in TN. Voyles' Little John was a Redboy/Jocko breeding right from Fletcher when he was alive. Sure, all of those dogs had offspring that quit. There's simply no way around that, but what they did on a regular basis, whether getting checked or getting matched was show their gameness when it was called upon.
Those dogs showed that as they were consistently bred for that gameness, and there have been quite a few extreme cases bred from those particular individual dogs. The only one of those dogs that had a lot of inbreeding done with it was Little John. It wasn't until the end when his owner started simply trying to get dogs off him that all of that suffered some on the dog's production standpoint. Mangler wasn't bred as much as he should be, but his ability to produce dogs that could win and stay there during a long, brutal war was proven time and time again. The Kottonmouth dog that BCC had was off Mangler, and that dog was bred extensively to their Rags blood. He carried on the Mangler tradition for those guys. The dogs I saw down from Becky were bred by a man who really became obsessed with the gameness aspect of dogs. Good or bad, he was the only person, or yard, that I ever visited that gameness was seriously the number one priority. It wasn't the ability to win a match, bite you down, etc. It was simply the ability to show what the dog was made of in the most dire circumstances. It was always an interesting time at his house some years ago. My Frosty Paws dog was bred by WCC, and he wasn't any household name of a dog. He was simply a dog that had the ability to produce a game dog, show dog, etc on a regular basis. My yard still carries a very heavy influence of him to this day, and it will for some times to come.
I wrote all of that to simply say this. If someone wants Redboy dogs for gameness consistently, you need to find a person that is breeding those dogs with that in mind. It's fairly easy to get online and find a super heavy Redboy bred dog and hope it's a game dog. The sad reality is most of those individuals really have no idea what that really means. That is why I wouldn't buy any Redboy type dogs from anyone, save maybe one person at this time. The line simply isn't based on the gameness it was originally noted for any longer.