Is it good or bad or even possible to reach 100% inbreeding. I just done a breeding of brother/sister littermates who were at 46% them selves. The resulting litter will be at 62.5%. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
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Is it good or bad or even possible to reach 100% inbreeding. I just done a breeding of brother/sister littermates who were at 46% them selves. The resulting litter will be at 62.5%. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
100% is an identical twin or clone.
62.5 is highly inbred.
Good or bad depends on the dogs and the traits they carry.
if they carry all kinds of defective traits then this would be bad.
Good news is this is the best way to clean house. Keep the ones with little or no defects.
Agree with Black Hand.
I don't think you're understanding The Wright's Coefficient.
It is an idea, not a certainty. It is theoretical, not absolute.
Really read that blurb on there and it explains why.
Two littermates can have the same W.I.C. and one might be a spitting image of the dog inbred upon ... while the other may pull from a whole other aspect.
Same pedigree; same W.I.C.; two totally different gene pools.
On the other hand, the more absolutely uniform (and consistent) the whole litter is, the more you really have found paydirt for yourself ;)
That is why selection is always the key.
Not understanding this difference is why one guy will keep the quality in his line going, while another will lose it altogether and have the proverbial "paper tigers."
Most people who buy dogs and breed them have some initial success (and some don't), but after awhile they breed the quality and consistency out of their dogs, only to have to start over again.
Why? They have no real goals, no real selection criteria. They just breed "dogs that scratch" together.
Never breed tight, just to breed tight.
Never outcross, just to outcross.
Only inbreed on the right dogs if you want to be successful ... otherwise you'll crash and burn inbreeding on the wrong dogs.
Only outcross if your line has truly lost something ... and only choose another line that consistently has what you need ... then select the best individuals of that line to utilize.
If your dogs aren't truly outstanding in some key way(s), don't inbreed on them.
If your dogs are able to win consistently, then don't outcross, keep doing what you're doing, selecting from within your own line to streamline the traits you're after.
If you don't understand what I mean by any of this, or can't be specific in your own mind as to what traits you want, you shouldn't be breeding dogs at all yet.
Jack
Jack correct me if I am mistaken here. Another thing that I noticed too in a lot of truly great breeders is that they are not in a rush to breed their dogs and water them down too quickly. What I mean by that is for example Jack, you have had dogs and have been breeding for 15 or 20+ years and yet all of your key foundation dogs like Ch Hammer, Poncho & Silver Back are still all right there in the 1st, 2nd & 3rd generations. On the other hand, I've seen people that have only had dogs for 5 or 6 years and their key foundation dogs are already way back in the 5th & 6th generations. It almost seems to me like they put zero thought into their breedings. I truly believe that great breeders take their time and tries to make the most use out of their foundation dogs and only select the best off springs to continue their bloodline. This is just my two cents! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
P.s. I have not bred any dogs yet...still in search for that special dog with that special trait.
You are right Mr. Jack. I really don't understand the wrights coefficient yet. But I am diligently studying it every day. But what I do understand everything you said about breed standard. I will certainly take your advice on everything you took the time to tell me. I truly appreciate you for all the knowledge you can pass to me. I guarantee it will not fall on deaf ears. The 3 dogs I chose for my foundation dogs are from a proven three time winner. 2 are litter mates and one is a half brother to them. I produced one litter with the half brother/sister that was all uniform in size and color. I kept 3 and give 2 to close friends. Then just the other day I bred the full brother/sister. Although none are proven themselves. I will take the offspring and put them through the vigors of testing. The way I see it, the odds of them producing quality offspring is good enough that I don't have to risk the lives of my foundation dogs. And if I'm not satisfied with the qualities I see I will try an outcross. A very good "Ace" that my friend owns. Then again, if that don't pan out, I'll start over from scratch. I am a patient man. I will continue until I succeed. Now keep in mind, this is not an attempt to contridict you in any way. Im only trying to show you where my train of thought is. That way you can get a better idea of who I am and what I'm about. I am a beginner in the area of breeding.But at the same time I am extremely patient in the aspect of finding those special dogs that can consistently win. So no more breedings will take place until I am satisfied with what I have or I am satisfied that their qualities are inferior, at that point I go to my outcross. And also just to share a little about myself, I am not interested in selling puppies.At all. Everything I produce is for the advancment of Muddog APBT Kennels. I thought long and hard and searched high and low for my foundation dogs. And also put alot of time and energy into how I would start this program. I thought about it so much that my wife said I am "obsessed". But I'm ok with that because I love my dogs and the APBT breed. Greatest breed on earth. I am a student to the old timers and the guys who have proven themselves and thier programs, such as yourself. So I am humble at heart, and in any way you feel I am absolutely wrong please share with me what is wrong and the steps I should take to fix it.
Sincerely,
Charles Thomas
Muddog APBT Kennels
I have dogs in the 73% range now, and the ability to produce over 94% WIC dogs when those are bred together. If the selection is poor, or luck is against me, they could turn out to be real turds though. The tighter you get, the more stringent your selection criteria needs to become, and we always need good luck and excellent management skills.
Impossible to hit 100%. Tex said it best. If I the right traits are there, keep it tight.
UPDATE: With dogs on my yard right now I can produce 99.153% inbred pups.:shocked:
Now, they might all be deformed, rank, maneating curs, but it can be done in the real world by yours truly. We are officially in "no man's land" as far as I know for selectively producing a game bred bloodline in the APBT fancy with this level of inbreeding. Being as the prospective parents of this mating are clean phenotypically, I would actually expect excellence in every way.
This is very interesting ... so it will be a pioneering effort for you to report your percentages, strengths/weaknesses, etc. :-?
Good luck and keep us posted :-bd
I am going to make this breeding just for shits and grins to see what they come out like. I expect extreme uniformity, and also quality animals in every sense of the word. Both parents are clean animals with their respective level of inbreeding now, in theory nothing should change too much from where I am today. I will subsequently get them to the right fanciers and mine the data so that I can report back. We are talking about a minimum of 3 years until I know where we are at with it though.
TFX, if you don't mind, is there any particular way that we could see the dogs being bred? Personally, I'm very interested to look at the breedings that have been made to get you to this particular place in your program.
Kloos & Cucamonga's Waycross to Kloos & Cucamonga's Arana. Then select the 14 generation option and you will see the Inbreeding Coefficient that I previously mentioned. I should note here that Waycross is 6 months old, so I have at least another 6 months or so until I can stick him to his dam.
Now, as a disclaimer let me say that this is the shittiest standard for breeding that I have ever employed since I got involved in the game dog game back in 1988, an untested puppy back to his untested dam. Let me also say, that everything prior to these two since 1990 were either proven in legit shows, or severely tried and found to be worthy before they were ever bred.
So in a breeding like this, I am banking on a few things, and fighting a few others. I am banking on my observation of more than 25 years breeding this family of dogs that the performance and physical traits tend to resurface 4-6 generations later. It is not like there are any real punk dogs anywhere in this mating other than untested parents of unknown quality, but if you look at the 5th and 6th generation here, you have some dogs that are arguably some of the best in the history of our breed CH Bad Billy ROM, CH Chinaman, ROM, GR CH Andy Capp ROM, as well as many other notable performers like Hollingsworth Ruby (2XW), Whatsonsecond (2XW), CH Costello, Black Ace(2XW), Coal Cat (1XW), Peaches (2xW), among others. Even in the first few generations you have some really good bulldogs that I know everything about firsthand. In addition, the genetic variables are greatly reduced with this level of inbreeding, so the possibility that some kind of freakish, ace pit dog could come out of a tight inbreeding like this is quite likely, and the probability that solid performing, well conformed game dogs is almost a certainty, it's just a matter of how many and how good. Naturally, there also exists the possibility of a cull or two as well, we simply call that reality.~X(
Now, the thing working against a person doing a mating like this is that as we progress in our level of inbreeding, the likelihood that dogs take after their parents rather than a more distant ancestor is significantly increased. So, while I am breeding to and somewhat banking on the 2nd generation and beyond; because I know the quality of the animals there, the inbreeding is working against me a bit in that these 99% inbred pups have a much higher chance than your average 3% inbred litter of coming out like the parents, and NOT like their more distant ancestors. Inbreeding increases prepotency, for better or for worse. So, at the very moment that my selectivity should be at it's all time most stringent standard, I am making a slight concession due to an endangered bloodline and some fucked up laws. With that said, I would rather feed dogs bred like this than anything else on the planet because I could never know another line the way I do this one. Lots of people have a "gut feel" about pups or dogs in their kennel, but it is based on pure speculation. Conversely, the kind of experience I have with this particular family cannot be had in any other way than working with them for more than half of my life, and all of my adult life, so it isn't bullshit speculation, it is firsthand knowledge and recognition of the genetics expressing themselves in a way I am already very familiar with. I wouldn't trade that knowledge and my influence on this line for some leaf chasing, rock eating, house fighting, chain pulling, hit anything that moves, fool headed barker, even if it was a Double Grand Champion, because that 10XW could NEVER produce animals that I like as consistently as my own dogs can.
Hey there amigo ... I took the liberty of editing your post to reflect the breeding 8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFX
BTW, your whole post was an absolutely excellent one, and spot-on; however, I couldn't help but lmao at your closing line :rotflmao:
Word!
When you are line breeding or outcrossing you need a plan and strict breeding practice ,(select genes ) always breed good to good when possible .
Well......you've been there and you know exactly what I am talking about, right? It's like someone serving me fish for dinner "no thanks!". Now, some people like fish, there's nothing wrong with that, it's just not my thing. Thanks for editing Jack, I am not as savvy with this forum as I have been past versions, nor do I have the time to become an expert. I barely have time to throw up the occassional post.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack