I will start this thread by posting what is said to be the true pedigree of arts missy and littermates gr ch davis boomerang and ron petronellis fox , as stated by ed crenshaw.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...2&dam_id=31515
Printable View
I will start this thread by posting what is said to be the true pedigree of arts missy and littermates gr ch davis boomerang and ron petronellis fox , as stated by ed crenshaw.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...2&dam_id=31515
This is another dog whos true pedigree is supposed to be this one below in the pedigree , its patricks tombstone .
The reasons as to why this is more than likely the true pedigree i will try to explain, and the first thing is that don maloney had a deal with earl tudor that any pups out of earls pure females like baby he was supposed to tell him about before dealing them out to anyone without earls say so, and as such if tombstone was out of baby then don maloney would have been in trouble from earl and earl known that maloney had dealth tombstone to ron petronelli wihtout him being told about it.
Another reason is that don mayfield always felt that tombstone was out of one of earls pure bitches that maloney had on his yard as explained above but was never able to completely get the truth out of maloney to be sure and as such he never bred tombstone into his dogs ,but he felt sure tombstone wasnt out of the bitch speedy allens jena .Don had something like 400 plus audio tapes that he had from his telephone conversations with dogmen like maloney and many others from those years , including earl tudor and carver etc etc , and althoguh i only have a mere handfull of thsoe audios tapes , i do have around 15 of them which include such rarities as conversations with earl tudor and carver and don maloney , where don is talking to maloney about the tombstone dog he got from ron petronelli who originally got the dog from don maloney, and in the conversation maloney seems to slip up and tell don mayfield that tombstone is out of the same dam as his nigger dog , which is baby , which to don made more sense to him as tombstone showed to be a very famly bred dog , not just in his gamness but in his subsequent proudcing abilty later on for pat patrick , to whom he later sold tombstone .Well in the same conversation maloney then catches himself and says to mayfield that tombstone is out of the jena bitch, but eventhough don was sure he wasnt out of her but out of baby , he didnt want ot take the chance to breed him into his line just incase it was true as he didnt want any part of the jena bitch in his line ,so he later sold him to pat patrick with the option that he had breeding rights to the dog ,he dint tell patrick this , but it was incase he was able to prove 100% that tombstone was out of baby and could then breed to him at a later stage if he wanted to.
Years later and on another telephone conversation , from a man who don didnt know and was from arkansas i think , he memtioned to don about tombstone, and that at the time that tombstone was supposed to be whelped out of gena this man told don she was on another mans yard and could in no way have been whelping tombstone on don maloneys yard , and of course confirming dons gut feeling of how tombstone was truly bred but of course it was many years too late .
I wish and hope i could still get more of those audio tapes, as they are the jewels that are really worth having , and although i like many other have all his video tapes also, the audios where he talks to these other dogmen recording them so as to have a record of their conversations ,so as in the case of tombstone to try to get to the truth on many things especially true breedings etc , and with earl he would take his tape recorder down to earls place and earl was happy to talk with don and those audios are like goldust for anyone in the dogs to learn and understand more about the game and the men who played it in those years that we all look back at as the golden generation of the game when tudor was still alive and breeding through to mayfield maloney carver burton and many more great characters and dogmen of the game, and i hope i can get more of those audios , i would like them all , but im happy to have the ones i do have as even in these few i have theres some of the most interesting conversations, two of which i have mentioned in this post about the true pedigree of patricks tombstone and i hope you enjoyed it regardless of whether you believe this pedigree is the true one or the one maloney put on tombstone .
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...37&dam_id=1628
Okay, now, on the Ed Crenshaw breeding up top, I have never heard that about Boomer. What I do know is Ed Crenshaw had some white dogs, and many heavy Boomer dogs are known to be white, so there is some circumstantial evidence to support this theory.
On the Tombstone dog, I am one more you can add to the list of people who believe he was brother/sister bred off of Toot & Ch Baby :)
Speedy Allen's Gina makes no sense, both as a breeding as well as why top dogmen would have it, use it, etc.
By contrast, a bother/sister breeding of Spike/Black Widow dogs explains why Tombstone was so game, and it also explains why he was such a prepotent producer.
And now I am going to throw in another fake breeding that "I heard of" (and believe) and that is the true breeding on Honeybunch. I am one of the many people who believes Honeybunch was NOT really off of Bullyson. To the best of my knowledge, all Bullyson ever threw were Black dogs. He was a black dominant AA dog and it was genetically impossible for him to throw anything else, no matter what he was bred to. (Sons/daughters of Bully could, if he was bred to red/buckskin dogs, but anything off of Bully directly had to be black.) That said, my belief is that Honeybunch was a father/daughter breeding of Carver's Amber bred back to her father Cracker (making her 3/4 Dibo/Black Widow, 1/4 Rascal/Black Widow, and Rascal is Dibo's 1/2-brother). I forget where I heard this, but this breeding did happen, and it also makes more "genetic sense" than Bullyson to Amber. It also explains why Honeybunch was such a great producer.
That's my $0.02.
Jack
The next dog that has a disputed pedigree is boudreaux's blind billy , this pedigree below is how floyd has him bred , and then we can look at the reality of whether that is true or not.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=165
What i would like to do is put my evidence or theory forward to prove that blind billy was not bred as floyd says , but infact
was as many dogmen of the time thought , of unknown breeding .If blind billy was not bred as floyd says, then that would lead us onto how ELI is bred and floyds whole family of dogs from that time forward , but lets start with blind billy, and for that we have to start with tudors dibo.
Tudors dibo was born on 1951-03-21 and we know from the story of dibo that he never went to tudor untill he was around
3 years old , which would make the date for him arriving on tudors yard no earlier than late 1953 to sometime in 1954 .
Now if we use floyds own words from his interview in the times jan-feb edition 1989 ,where he states that blind billy was born in 1952 and he got him in 1953 by trading earl tudor some rooster for him, then i think its fair to say that it would be
very unlikley that dibo could ever be the sire to blind billy , and is far more likely to be a dog of unknown heritage as suspected at the time .
Now with that in place i would like to move on to the ELI dog , who is supposed to be out of blind billy ,which with the above info in place looks very unlikely also. Before i go on and psot what is belived to be the true breeding of the ELI dog,
i would like to post this story by don mayfield about the ELi dog as this should help to give anyone not familiar with the
story something more to go on.
THIS BELOW STORY OF ELI BY DON MAYFIELD
Let me begin at the beginning when I first started in the game. One of my first friends in the game was Floyd Boudreaux. Floyd and I got together right away, he had not won any matches and I showed up to my first match with gameness and conditioning and Floyd and I became close friends in the '60s and traveled the road together and spoke on the phone very often.
When I had the bitch Cry Baby in 1965, my wife and I got separated for a while and I took Cry full of pups over to Floyd's so he would care for her until she whelpped in 2 weeks. I got the Cry bitch from George Gillman and Curly Hayes. They had bought her from Evelyn Start after she had won a match with her and they went on to win one or two more with Cry after that before I dealed for her.
I called Floyd after the date she was due to whelp and he told me that all of her pups were born dead. But when I went to get Cry back after 7 or 8 weeks it was obvious that she had whelped her pups and had been nursing them till about a week or two before I went to pick her up at Floyd's. I looked real good but I never said anything about it to Floyd.
About 2 years later, Floyd showed up at pitside with the Eli dog. When Eli's match started, Curly Hayes came up to me and said, "Don, you told me that all of Crys pups had died", and I said "Curley, thats what Floyd told me but I got eyes and I can see". It was the fact that Eli looked more like a twin to his dam than he did her son that gave him away. Later, Leo Kinard came up to me and said "Don, where did Floyd get the BLACK dog? did Cry have her pups on Floyd's yard?"
A while after that some in the game like Leo Kinard and Junior Bush told some others that Floyd had told them that Eli was was out of Cry, and some years later Sonny Sykes told me that he had seen Cry at Floyd's with her pups nursing off her and Floyd had let him take his pic of the litter. There were 6 in that litter and 2 of them were matched that I know of and one of them was called Ellis' Pistol. Sonny told me that after Eli had won his first match Floyd came up to him and said that Eli was the pup he had picked out of the litter but had never come to get.
After that incident Floyd and I had our falling out and ended our friendship.
The hardest and gamest dogs I seen produced by Eli were when he was bred to bitches off the Corvino family by John Cotton and Junior Bush. All of them were game winners and I always believed that the dog Zebo was one of them when Eli was stolen from John Cotten's yard and taken to Indian Sonnys yard in California where he was bred.
According to this version of the breeding of Eli, his true ped would be:
....................Langham's Cotton
.........Little Cotton
....................Dolan's Lady
...Eli
....................Tudor's Dibo
.........Cry Baby
....................Tudor's Dinah
This is the full pedigree of the believed to be true breeding of ELI below .
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...3&dam_id=14044
Now as you can see from the story mayfield tell us that crybaby who was a black female by the way would have
whelped ELI in 1965 , so blind billy if he was even alive in 1965 would have been at least 12 years old , which
although doesnt rule him out under normal circumstances, i do believe with the unlikely possibility that blind billy
is bred as floyd says he is, it would be even less likely that he is the sire of ELI .
The story tell us and others have also over the years said that they had known that ELI was out of the crybaby littter,
and infact sonny sykes told of how floyd did offer him a pick from the litter which confirms dons story also .The other thing
is that floyd never had any black dogs before ELI ,and over the next few years from ELI onwards floyds whole line became
a predominately black line of dogs , which when you add up all the other evidence from blind billy on , it makes more sense.
I think that if we believe that blind billy was not bred like floyd says based on the evidence we have , then it stands to
reason that ELI and floyds whole family of dogs is not desended from blind billy ,but from the little cotton and crybaby litter
themselves .
Very interesting read ProjectX.
Makes a lot of since about the Tombstone and Honeybunch dogs.
What doesn't make since is WHY would so many dogmen of the past switch up pedigrees on bulldogs? I realize there were far less dogs, and one would want to stay ahead of the game by keeping recipes secret. But why not just choose not to disclose the pedigree?
It just seems such a dishonest practice.
Not to take anything away from any of the dogmen mentioned, as they are mostly just legends in the dust to most of us now. But imagine how much more great they would be if controversy didn't follow them.
Thanks sb , but what do you think about the blind billy ELI theory looking at the facts, its a shame that floyd or any other dogman would do that , but maybe the difference here between say carver being dishonest of faking pedsQuote:
Originally Posted by S_B
was more about either not wanting others to know the true breeding so he himself could repeat it , and also that as with bullyson and other flavour of the month dogs he would fake peds to sell you the pedigree or flavour of the month so to speak rather than to claim a line as his own , or to pass it off as sometihng that only he had a hand in and no other man.
Floyd on the other hand seems to have done his ped faking in this case to take credit for the line or not to give credit to another man , in this case mayfield , as both crybaby and little cotton were mayfields at the time and he made the breeding , but that type of ped faking seems worse to me than what carver did , as he wasnt claiming the breedings he faked peds on like carver did with ironhead or bullyson breedings etc which is still unacceptable done on the industrial scale carver did it on , floyds ped faking was claiming that a whole line was bred down from his own breeding ,as floyd seems to have done starting with the fake blind billy pedigree which led onto ELI and then the family of dogs we call the boudreaux family of dogs which definetly takes the shine from the mans legend status , but it shouldnt surpirse any of us that this happens, its called taking a short cut and most definetly dishonest .
Bobby halls bullyson dogs are even black til this day! I think those guys wrote up peds of whatever the buyer wanted man they didn't give a fuck back then noe was there any Internet or fast way to prove anything so....
i wouldnt beleive a word out of mayfirlds mouth
Bolero when you make a statment like that , you should at least put some meat on the bones about why , and out of curiosity do you belive floyd boudreuax on blind billy ? i mean you read the post about that ,and the supporting evidence , which by the way only went to show just how mayfield was right all along about blind billy and ELI'S true breeding , along with many others which we have touched on like tombstone and others to come.Quote:
Originally Posted by bolero
Mayfield told of a variety of dogs whos breeding he believed to be different than the
pedigree would show, as he had more information of breedings in his part of the world
and the ones mentioned in this thread so far are far more likely to be like he and others
knew they were than not.
Don like all of us was not perfect by any means , but when it came to pedigrees and breedings you could take his word to the bank , he was obsseive about them, and had
the bigest collection of information on the history of the breed and the game that any
man has ever had.
The funny thing is that non of the men whos dogs he claimed were bred differently
than they claimed, ever tried to say the same about him , they instead tried to say he
was crazy or other things ,but they never said that his dogs were bred different than he said as they knew they werent and that mayfield may not have been a saint ,but they
knew that if they tried to claim that about him they would be going down a dead end street.
Jack in his reply to the tombstone post ,where i explianed why mayfield could never bring
himself to breed to tombstone , eventhough he was sure that tombstone was out of baby and not jena , agreed that it didnt make sense the jena pedigree , and we can now be
certain that mayfield was infact correct in believing that tombstone was out of baby , but
becasue at the time he couldnt be 100% sure ,eventhough malony lets slip in the audio
that he is out of baby, then corrects himself later on in the same audio, and don because
of his way of breeding didnt want to take the chance by breeding tombstone into his
nigger bred family dogs if there was any chance that jena was the dam to tombstone
and not baby.
This shows mayfields attention to detail in his breding plan, and how seriously he valued the truth in his breedings and was aware as he has shown by what he claimed for many years
and i can tell you this , if i had to take one mans word on how his own dogs were bred , and the dogs in this thread so far ,then regardless of how much of a legend both mayfield and
boudreaux both are, i would have to say that on this i would trust mayfield , as i think
its fair to say that mayfield has pretty much proven to have been telling us the truth
on blind billy /ELI / tombstone , and if i had to say what you said about mayfield bolero,
it would be boudreaux i would be saying it about not mayfield .
For anyone who didnt know , don had more info and knowledge that he had amased in his
years of painstaking research of this breed and the men who played the game he loved.
He had trunks full of had written pedigrees from all those years and from the collections
of earl tudor amonst others , in put toggether a libray of video ,and more importantly 400 +
audio tapes of his dealings and conversations with every dogman from earl tudor to old frank
fitzwater and everyone else inbetween , in his search for the truth in breeding and as an absolute fanatic of this game and breed to have the forethought and passion of a true collector to have done that .
what u stated was not facts wat u stated were mayfields beleifs, now if great dogs like eli bullyson and brendy and eli jr were really mayfield dogs why could don nevere ever produce dogs as good as them or produced like them.
ProjectX,
I'm not as familiar with the Boudreaux dogs, or others mentioned in this thread. But this information is presented as a "theory" which can support facts or evidence as such. But the point is it isn't a proven solid, without a doubt fact.
It is an interesting read tough, and one can make their own judgement based on your theories, and evidence.
I no longer know if John Cotton and Bill Cotton were brothers are of any kin. John Cotton was a ex FBI agent that lived in Tenn. and had some Corvino dogs. He was friends with Mayfield and Mr. Bush. Bill Cotton lived in N.C. and was the owner of the famed Cotton's Bullet dog. I never got to meet Bill Cotton but V. Jackson did at the Hank's dog's first match.
Is some interesting discussion on the Eli/ Tombstone etc. I thought Randy Fox was a member on here. Would like his thoughts on the Speedy Alan's Gina bitch. Maloney had a full sister to Tombstone named Bonnie that was bred to the Fox's Alvin dog and some others. Was some good dogs off her.
There is a lot of OFRN breeding along with Tudor/Corvino/Armitage/Williams/ Colby dogs in Gina's pedigree. If she was a red nose Gyp and since Toot was a red nose dog as well. Tombstone would show that red nose influence.
I had back in my time era thought of Don Maloney just a Dog matcher and Dog conditioner. Other than Toot and Colorado. A lot of his other pedigrees showed more DeCordova/Hemphill and other bred dogs in his area. I will have to pull up his pedigrees and take another look.
Kennedy/Deffenbach/Uselton/Trussell/etc. did more to keep those last breeding's of Tudor going. When the Glover - Stinson Sampson dog was lost after his last match with Hooten's Butcher Boy. Was a great loss to that Tudor family line of dogs. Jim Usleton was wanting to save Sampson so badly. A misunderstanding got him accidentally shot in one leg by a shot gun.
It is sad that men like E. Crenshaw, did not man up back then when they saw breeding's that were shown incorrect. Called UKC and ADBA to get the pedigrees corrected.
Was to late for Mr. E. Crenshaw to have let himself be taped in a interview. Claiming the errors of M. Carver breeding's after he had died. Mr. Crenshaw should have been addressing that matter to Ralph Greenwood when the paper changing was going down. At least with the dogs he and Carver were breeding.
If we could really see how many of the dogs of the 60's, 70's, 80's were really bred. Would be quite a eye opener. Howard Heinzl was one the few dog man that no one spoke bad of. Was considered to have been very honest with his breeding's and papers. Cheers
Very interesting, CYJ, thanks.
Did you know Deffenbach? I heard he lost with a Champion to the great Robert T dog. Did you happen to see that match?
Jack
I agree with some of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by bolero
I certainly don't take every word out of Mayfield's (or anyone else's) mouth as gospel ... but, by the same token, he did have a lot of insight as to dogs of that era and I am sure some of his ideas/beliefs were true.
Jack
Bolero you are not reading what i posted, i never said that they were mayfield dogs, mayfield made the breeding of crybaby to little cotton , and if as i think it is ,we can see ,that if floyds story about blind billy was a lie, then its very likley that ELI was bred out of the crybaby litter and as such the whole floyd line from that point on was bred down from that litter in some way shape or form.Quote:
Originally Posted by bolero
Bolero i ask you again having read the blind billy story i posted , using times and dates and using what i would call
a nose for smelling a rat, do you think that blind billy can possibly be bred as floyd says , and if not then it would stand to reason that floyd and not mayfield must have been lying, so as i asked you in my previous post, what did mayfiled lie to you about for you to say that about him?, i at least am putting forward my reason with some kind of evidence as to why i feel certain dogs were not bred as their pedigrees showed , what are you providing as evidence about mayfield lying in these cases ?
Nice post cyj, tudors baby was the female of earls that was on maloneys yard and was the likely dam to tombstone, and im sure if you read my post about the audio tape which i actually have and on it there is the convo with maloney and a man who called mayfield some years later and told don about how the gina bitch was up in another state whenQuote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
she was suposed to be on maloenys yard whelping tomstones litter .
I think that jack is correct in saying that you should never completely belive everything about thoses times, regadless of
who tells you, but im more than happy to take mayfields word about tombstone/ ELI and blind billy not being bred as they show.
I do that not becasue i want to believe it just becasue mayfield says it, i think if you read my post about these dogs , i have used as msuch evidence,such as it is , including floyds own words , and the circumstanstail evidence of various factors like the audio conovs about tombstone, the timeline for blind billy and dibo which if true would more than likely prove that ELI was infact out of the crybaby litter as was thought at the time,and as such would mean that mayfield should at least get some recognition for that litter and the subsequent breeding that floyd most probably made with eli and the other litter mates .
In those audios mayfield had it showed the foresight to keep a record of his converstions ,from them we have found out many things about the breedings not just from amyfields mouth but from the mouths of the men he talked to in those audio tapes, which are the
most important information source we have today , and i only wish i had more of them , but from just those few it proved
a lot of what mayfield had said over these years was true.
As for ed crenshaws audio interview, well i think he in many ways had the tell on carver , he knew more about carvers breedings than most other folks around , and im not sure we should condem him about not telling what he knew about possible mixed up peds like the ones mentioned , as i think the dogmen back then and especially from ed crenshaws generation were far more low key and kept things to themselves much more than today , with the internet and instant access to information etc , but i agree with you it would be great if they all came out and said something , The trouble is back then how did you prove it, there was no dna like today , and when mayfield did say something ,which now looks like it was true, he gets shot down as jealous and crazy , so its not like the fraterntiy welcomes this type of news
with open arms , because if one mans lying then another is telling the truth , and the folks who stand behind the man caught lying never seem to be able to face upto it , its like they feel like thev'e been made to look a fool by sticking up for the liar , so rahter than look like fools they just call the other man a lair and hope it goes away , but the thing is that the truth ,or at least the truth as best as we can get it, comes out in the end ,just like blind billy ELI and tombstone , to name a few.
Did not meet Deffenbach. Did briefly meet Maloney/ Maurice Carver/ and saw some of the other famous dog men at that dog show in Texas. Was when Don Mayfield put on a great dog show and his Easy bitch was matched into Stinson and Glover's Ruby bitch.
After that show when Easy lost to Ruby. Myself and V. Jackson went back to Don's Home and dog yard. With some other dog men do not remember all the names of this small group. Kreshner might have been one of the dog men. I was good at remembering faces but bad on names.
That was the day I started slowly parting ways with Don. Until then I along with Vernon were big Mayfield fans. Don had set up those matches with very strict washing rules. Even using the 100% percent alcohol, fresh sleeveless coveralls and sewed pockets. One sponge and water bucket. Dogs had to enter the show ring through a wire enclosure.
Nothing was handed into the show ring with Corner men on all sides. Some of these matches were going for good money and all means of cheating would be hard to pull off. Not to mention many season dog men were there. Nothing wrong with doing it this way and probably the best way today.
Later as we sat there in the dog yard, talking back and forth. I could see Don was not in the best of moods and kept looking far off in the distance in deep thought. After awhile he finally turned around to us and said his Bitch Easy had been rubbed. That hit me like a ton of bricks and later on in the trip back home.
I told V. Jackson he could continue with the older dogs we had started with, that I felt it was time for me to try something different.
I later got the McNeil Chuck dog, the 2x Lopossay Buster Pearl bitch from Shropshire and the Face bitch from Chandler. The Face bitch had some older Mayfield dogs through the Wille dog from Dwight Hathaway. The rest was mostly Bully Son/Art's Missy through the Middleton Black Betty bitch. Got one good breeding off the Zetterquest brother's Crazy dog.
One other thing that ended any future dealings with Mayfield, not that he ever did anything unfairly at the time we bought the two Coplin bitches from him. We later bred both bitches back to Sunshine and Tina to the Snake dog. Far as I knew, all had went well and Vernon had sent him the pups. Out of the deal Vernon not me had made with him. I had given my part of the pups to Vernon.
Sent the only male I had off Snake x Tina to Mr. Orbie Coplin for the two young stud dogs he had shipped to me. Was the last out cross stud dog Mr. Coplin owned. Named him Carolina Kid and kept him in the house. He and wife liked Carolina Kid a lot.
Later when the Jocko dogs etc. got popular off the Hank dog. Don ups and writes a real bummer of a article on the Hank dog. Vernon had bought the Hank dog as a pup out of Don's puppy pen. Their was some Sibling pups to the Hank dog. Some claim the Panama Red dog to be a sibling brother to Hank. Don gave Jackson the puppy ABDA registering certificate on Hank. Hank was ADBA registered dog.
After I read the article I called Don, asked him why he wrote such a article. When the Hank dog's reputation had not hurt the Mayfield name but enhanced it. He started telling me Vernon had not sent him the correct number of pups. I told him I knew nothing of any of this. Contacted Jackson to see what was up. Seems Vernon was short two pups since he had lost some of his from parvo or maybe a kennel accident. No longer remember all the details
I called Don back and told him I would send him a nice looking brindle female 4-5 month old pup off The Snake x Tina breeding. This was the second time I had ever shipped a dog by airways and did not know the stress a young pup could go through. The pup shipped to Mr. Coplin had went well. When Don picked the pup up it was badly dehydrated and had lost a lot of weight. He was not happy about that.
A year or so later I sent a fine little bitch off His Sunshine dog x Jackson's Pokey. To breed to Sunshine or Snake. He instead kept my bitch, renamed her Mayfield's Tish and bred her to Pusher. Was never able to get any inbreeding off his stud dogs. The last dog Vernon got from Don before their relationship fell apart was the Banjo dog.
Don was one of the best dog men in his prime and his conditioning thoughts and methods changed the way most dogs are worked today. Jackson used a lot of his method and I felt even improved on it. I am glad to have known Don briefly and never had any hard feelings. He was a Pro and I was a rookie.
Over time even Mr. Skinner told me that no matter how Maurice Carver was breeding his dogs. He was going to be the pit dog breeder to have the greatest impact on the dogs of today. Like Colby and Tudor did in their day. Don near the end may have felt he had not gotten the credit he should have. We will never know. Cheers
Nice post again cyj , but having looked at the info about blind billy /ELI in this thread what is your opinion about those breedings , and doesnt it look like don was correct in those and probably many other breedings of the day , i would like to know what you think , as i think maybe the fact that he made the breeding that produced eli may go some way to give him a litte more credit than he seems to have had as a breeder to the many who are uniformed on the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Ditto Projectx, I to feel there may be something to the Cry Baby story as well. I was the one who entered the Mayfield's Cotton pedigree and some other Mayfield pedigrees. The way it is today, I figure if you feel stronger about those thoughts told by those various dog men than what the pedigrees are showing.
Then as the old saying goes, where there is smoke there may be a fire. Breed one's dogs according to those line of thought. Instead of how the papers show the dog or dogs to be bred.
One may end up doing one of two things. Either one's dogs will be bred more correctly or have just made a brand new click that is working. After that, what happens is up to how one choses to breed/cull their dogs and how honest one choses to be with the future papers.
I doubt ADBA or UKC or the other registries will change anything today with most of these dog men no longer living. Even listening to all of those tapes. Putting those tapes on a CD for others to buy and hear. Would if they chose to, could rewrite their own personnel pedigrees to go by. Give a copy of it along with the other pedigree to any dogs sold or farmed out. That other person could to do with the info as they chose.
Sonny Shropshire was a long time Game Chicken person and I enjoyed several trips up to Box Wood. Was a blast from the past. Top Game Chicken men and game chickens meeting from all States to get it on. LOL
Sonny was a good dog man in the short time he was in it. One day not long before he quit the dog game. He told me during a visit that Game Chicken breeders and conditioners he had known. Were a hell of a lot more honest than the crowd of Pit dog men he had known and dealt with in the past years. I said you are probably right. LOL
In closing If I was going to get back into the game. Pedigrees and dog papers would not be my first priority. I would look for a yard of dogs like Mr. Hollingsworth had bred up. Dogs that are built to perform and all of the dogs on the yard look a like.
Hopefully you will get the right papers of what that immediate breeder has done and the advice of how to carry on that line. The Dog game is a never ending story with lots of highs and lows. May you all have a lot of Highs and very few lows. Cheers
Good post CYJ , if you tend to believe the crybaby theory which i also believe to be true, then what about the blind billyQuote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
story, i think that is the one that has the evidence to prove it could not be correct based on the dob of dibo and the timeline with floyds own version of when and how he got billy , which in turn then makes the ELI crybaby story fit into place with much more certainty and means that like a house of cards the whole boudreaux line based on blind billy and ELI's pedigrees collapses like a house of cards.
I dont know what a man might do if he had all of dons audios or even just some of them, i just know that on the 15 i have
there is so much information that i wonder how much more we might learn if we had them all, and don had the foresight to
make those recordings so he could refer back to them, and also so he could prove such things about breedigns and other
such things that a man might say in confidence on the phone ,but not admit in public as don knew how the game was and
that the match was not only at pitside ,but in every conversation with many of those men .
But don also was so into the history of the breed and the dogmen from the past, that he would also take his tape
recorder with him on his visits to earl tudors place ,and he would record as much as he could of earl telling about
his time and the men he played the game with, which showed his passion for the game ,and don always put earl
at the top of the tree ,and those recordings of earl were dons way of not loosing that to just a memory ,and i for
one thank him for that , becasue of all the books and magazines and other gamedog related stuff i have, the items
i would keep above all others are the audio tapes i have , and especially the ones with earl tudor .
I think as you said , the ADBA or UKC arent going to change the peds on these dogs, eventhough i do believe that the
blind billy dog can be proved to be without much doubt to not be as bred as the official dob of dibo and the age of when
he arrived at tudors place to the dob on blind billy , means it was impossible for dibo to be the sire , and in this case i
think that those registries should when evidence is clear and damming of such falsfication of a pedigree as in billys case
that they delete that pedigree from billy and change the pedigree to say unknown behind billy , regardless of who
is the man behind the dog, even a legend like floyd boudreuax , otherwise it means that we can't have any confidence
in these registries to police these matters and act when they have reason to do so.
Projectx it is very hard to put 100% confidence in what any of those dog men like Mayfield/ Tudor/Boudreaux/Carver/Patrick and others said. It is like allowing yourself to become the outsider that gets caught up in their little family squabble. I too felt like you do in my younger years and was a crusader for the Truth of the pedigrees etc. Was not long before I found myself beating on a dead horse. One minute these same dog men were talking crap about each other, then later on being the best of pals. Even having group pictures took. Sitting there picking and a grinning at some pig picking.
Who would believe all that Earl Tudor had to say when much he did. Showed him to have some serious character flaws. In the Burton interview it was mentioned that Burton's wife could tell Mrs. Tudor was much afraid of ole Earl. If it be true, what sort of man lets a dog man pimp, bring over a young prostitute and have sex with her in the barn. While his wife of many years is in the House near by. How honest do you think Tudor and Carver are going to be about all their dog dealings when doing something as common as that?
Or brag about taking a squaw Indian women anytime you please. Or keeping other dog men's brood bitches after they paid stud fees and had shipped the bitch dogs to him. Then when Tudor feels some one has wronged him. He goes up on his mountain and starts caterwauling, according to what Mayfield wrote. If all those said statements are True. I and the many readers were not there so really all could be a lot of hear say. No doubt Tudor was a top dog man in his day and had a great influence on the dog game. But to take all Tudor said as the gospel from Don's taped interviews and any of those other taped interviews. Is a little more salt than I would want to take on my food.
Your best contribution to this matter and to the others that have the rest of those tapes. Is to put them down on a CD and sell them for a fair price. Or have the interviews posted on this site, like Dead End does on the on lines pedigree site. Then everyone can make up their own minds. Still, getting those older pedigrees changed will be a moot point far as those registries are concerned. Cheers
CYJ , i dont disagree with you about the many flaws they had asdo many others, but were all human and everyone has there weakaness.As for taking all the audios as gospel , well like everything else i like to use common sense but those audios have a lot of truth in them, and also a lot of the bullshit that comes with playing the game, but on a historical note they are the best information source in the spoken word from most all of the players from that era ,and as such i am very glad i have the few i have.Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
You still havent said whether you think that the blind billy story looks like don and others were correct , but if you dont want to say anything about that , then i guess you agree with me , and if it is a lie then i feel that this is a case that the adba should put right , as theres no way based on the dob's of dibo and the age we know he was first bred by tudor and blind billys dob that dibo can be the sire , and i for one would think it would show a strong adba who cares about true pedigrees if they were to change that pedigree to unknown regardless of it being boudreuax, and infact would show the adba to not be showing favouritism to any one man ,be it legend friend or newbie .
It may or may not be true what Don said about the Blind Billie dog. Blind Billie and the Scrub dog to me look nothing like those Bully son etc. dogs. When I saw that picture of the Scrub dog taking the count. I thought to myself that dog looks sort of weird like a half breed pit and that Fuzzy tail at the end of him. Maybe just some bad angles on the picture taking.
When you call Mr. C. Mims be prepared to do a lot of listening. Make sure your calling plan has plenty of minutes. Carl and self both owned and used that little Duplechain's Sally bitch. Sally died on my yard. Carl was telling me about one of the times he was in a motel room or some place with Lonzo Pratt. Said Lonzo was drinking and feeling at ease. Told me Lonzo started laughing about how he had just sold some young unexperienced dog men some dogs with bogus papers.
That was something Mr. Mims never did or was ever spoken about in that way. He today still says the Bass Cleo bitch is bred off the Cotton's Bullet dog. Mr. Mims was at one time a boxer and I do not know if Bass ever boxed. Bass was a Boxing coach, his son was a Golden Gloves Boxer. So Mr. Mims and Bass got along real well.
I can not say the same, from some of the experiences I had with R.E. Bass. I did not trust him far as I could throw him. Mr. Teal and Rowell over time quit dealing with Bass. Bass and Rowell got in some sort of a bad dispute which ended up with Bass pulling a gun on Rowell and firing off a round or two at his feet. Even W. Truett got to go a few rounds with Ole Bass.
Bass did not play well with others. Bass had Jim Williams of Palidan fame slap Woody Truett in his own dog yard. The first vehicle that left Woody's yard he emptied his shot gun into the back of it. Sadly it was not Bass and Williams, they had managed to get gone right before Woody made it back out of his House. Was two other innocent dog men from N.C. They were lucky and did not get hurt, but the truck got shot up. This is not hear say. I was there that day.
Katie and Bass parted ways and dogs, after he deliberately hurt her son Bo Marlowe. When Bo was a little boy. Katie was a tough woman and beat ole man Bass down in the ground with a heavy work shovel. Bo told me She even threw the shovel through the back window of his car, as he was fleeing the trailer park. Fellows Katie Marlowe came up hard and was one tough woman. She was tough on those Red boy dogs as well. One did not look right or acted right. That one was a sure goner.
So what we discuss in private affairs may not always be the best thing to discuss out in the open. Someone will get offended and the pissing contest begins. I got a little carried away on that other site and had to reel it in. Will after this post bring it back down some.
On another dog site someone posted a topic about, if Jocko could have beat Crenshaw's Jeep. I jumped in with all four feet and stated that if Jocko was at Jeep's pit weight and V. Jackson conditioned Jocko. Jocko would have turned Jeep everyway but loose and helped him get over that pit wall. That Jeep tried to get over a couple of times before. LOL One of the Moderators must have had a lot of Jeep bred dogs. He banned me from the site as he stated to me, forever. LOL
So I am not really trying to dispute you are anyone else on those stories. It is just what it is today. Doubt there is any chance of changing any thing now. I can say for myself that the dog's that have my name on them are bred as shown. What the dog man did before me and after me. I had no control over that.
I had the whole dog match on 8mm film of the Famous Trahan's Cajun dog that was matched into Komosinski's Rocky dog. Mr. Mike Ferris worked the Trahan dog and Mr. Howard Teal worked the Rocky dog. My father filmed the whole event. Back then they pulled a dog down to his bottom weight. For dogs to go at it like they did and pulled that tight. You better have bred for deep gaminess.
I have misplaced this piece of dog history and hope to find it before too much longer. You have some great dog history that would be great too share with these younger dog men. Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Very good post, CYJ. Those tapes could be put to YouTube and posted here with the video links.
I have always believed as you do: a man who lies to and cheats on his wife will lie to and cheat anyone.
Jack
Excellent. DB will tell you the first thing he learned form Tudor was, "You better be willing to cheat to win"Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Well, hell, how honest are all these "good ole boys"
Mayfield was known to be a jealous man who continually run down just about anyone he could. I wouldn't take the word from someone like this on any topic in life. Not a single one.
I believe there was a man in TN, named Paul Sweeny, who beat Earl Tudor 4-0 ...
NQK by the looks of your post it seems like you arethe one trying to run down mayfield ,evenQuote:
Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel
when as it seems that he was right about the dogs mentioned so far in this thread , which
would mean your the jealous one trying to run him down.
Nqk i would agree with you entirely about mayfield being jealous if everytime he said something about the fake peds as mentioned in this thread they all turned out to be just in his imagination, but you know who started those rumours about don being jealous? the guys who owned the dogs he was talking about i wonder why?,and guess what don was right most of the time, so maybe
your perception of a jealous man depends on whos telling you that, i dont think anyone who can add up believes that blind billy or eli were bred as floyd papered them, so maybe you missed the theory and evidence in my post about blind billy and eli , and maybe you can tells us about how old mayfield the jealous guy as you say was wrong on that one .
boze quit never heard that before
ur not stating facts just mayfields rambles i would beleive floyds word over his u bought mayfields bullshit and im sorry nut that was your fault not ours mayfield could of lied about the dates and everything and he probably didmayfield was a conditioner as a breeder he sucked and those are the facts period,Quote:
Originally Posted by projectx
BOlero you must not read to good or you would realsie it wasnt just mayfield saying that he didnt believe how blind billy was bred or that eli was bred the way floyd said he was, FLOYD BOUDREAUXS OWN WORDS MAKE HIM THE LIAR, floyd stated blind billy was born in 1952 , well dibo was born on the 21 of march 1951 and tudor never got him on his yard untill he was around 3 years old and them didnt breed him immediatley , so even if tudor had bred him the day he arrived that would be in 1954 so how the hell can he have sired blind billy who was born according to floyds own holy words in 1952 if tudor never even got dibo untill 1954 you tell me that .Quote:
Originally Posted by bolero
And another thing i asked you what did mayfiled lie to you about for you to call him a lair ? you still havent said anything apart from deny the obvious which is that it was floyd who lied about blind billy and that means that eli is also a lie and most probably bred exactly like mayfield said and as practically anyone with half a brain , so you go on believing a lie thats what i call dumb .Now lets get this straight, most people having read and looked at the evidence such as it is in the matter of tombstones true breeding /blind billys true or unknown breeding and ELIs true breeding , have come to the conclusion that mayfield was more than likely correct ,so now who were you calling a lair again bolero ? oh yea mayfield thats right the guy that was proven correct thats who, now why dont you open your eyes and accept the truth even if it means that mayfield was not lying but floyd was , it wont kill you its called the truth it actually frees you from the chains you have been living in for many years if and by the way once you realise floyd basically stole dons breeding from claiming eli as his own blood, tehn maybe you and some others around here would understand who really was a true breeder and who wasnt , becasue mayfields blood filled the yards of many dogmen , some who were honest and some like floyd who denied it , i repoeat look at the dates that floyds says not mayfield then scractch your head a little and maybe the damn light will come on up there in the place were your brain should be, and maybe if your a man you might want to take back that shit you said about mayfield , but i wont hold my breath for that.
My bad Bolero. Went back and corrected. I was talking about the Boudreaux' Scrub dog not the Boudreaux' Boze dog. Seems not only Boudreaux but the other Texas dog men etc. bred some quitting dogs in their pedigrees. Still done even today. I no longer have any of my older Magazines. But I believe Carver's Cracker was beat and failed to scratch, Trahan's Rascal dog did as well and some others.
The last living dog that V. Jackson had bred off of from my last bloodline, I was trying to develop. Had some awesome brothers and a beautiful built sibling sister. All got killed either by a very angry next door neighbor, Humane Dyke Society, stolen or drowned in a Texas Flash flood. That last dog was the Jackson's Harley dog. I was not there to see what happen but it was stated the dog quit in short order and barely mouthed the other dog.
Vernon said the dog was rubbed and two more later on, one dying in the kennel box and the other on the way to the Vet. Said he still has the Vet clinic reports showing Nicotine Sulphate. Would mail the reports to me to see for my self. Being that was a good many years back that was a moot point for me. Since I was not there to see for myself is a moot point. If I had felt the dog quit would have disposed of it even if that was the last Mohican. I know there was nothing wrong with his four grand parents. I had checked them pretty good.
Jackson said he went ahead and bred Harley to see if he may could be a producer. Felt he already knew the strengths and weakness of his dogs. Why go buy some one else's possible curs or cull dogs. V. Jackson said he on more than one occasion rode up on some of those dog thieves out on his property. There to steal dogs in the broad day light. Ended up letting a young Mexican dog man live on his property to help him and help watch and care for his remaining dogs.
Said all that to say I am not down on Boudreaux, Mayfield, are anyone else. I had some good dogs and some sorry ones. I was just one brick in the wall and nothing more. I was just a average dog man that liked the sport and did take very good care of my dogs. Kept my dogs healthy and runs clean.
We are all just bricks in the wall. Some may be considered big Concrete Blocks in that Wall. If we fight and bicker to much and demean each other. Not saying anyone has at this point. That wall can come tumbling down real fast.
Mr. Law. Mr. Do Good, Mr. john Q public and the Humane Dyke Society are only too willing, to put some of us bricks in a Jail house wall. LOL This sort of subject will just take us all around and around till we all turn into Butter or was that a brick. LOL Cheers
go by the american game dog times and read whata friend of both men says about eli and blind billy he explains everything and how eli was truly bred
You guys sure tell and assume lots of stuff. Tombstone was bred like Maloney said. He wasn't always honest but in this case he was. I was there and saw Toot in the pen with Gina hungup and lots of those dogs have her body shape. If I remember correctly Gina was a red brindle dog but it has been years so I could be wrong. That man that had Gina I think she won two fights and that man had lots of winners and his dogs were tested hard. Davis is a dog in question. Yet he could be out of Toot. Who knows on that one. His dam was in the pen with two different males being bred. Charley Adkisson and I went out there one monday she was in with toot. When we went out there on thursday the dam was in with a De cordova dog called Rusty. When Maloney had Toot and Genia. There were no pure Tudor females at that time at his home. I know I was there. Gina was a two time winner. Don Maloney had a friend that he was real close with. I saw him several times at Maloney's home. He wasn't a bulldog man. He told me that him and Maloney went to Diffenbach's home to buy a pup. Diffenbach was gone so he ask Don which one he like and he pointed a Toot. So I grabbed it up and carried it to the truck. He said that is the truth about Toot. Maloney told him you need to keep your mouth shut.The first six years Toot was registered out of Jeff and then later on he was registered out of Spike. I think it was because Diffenbach had died but I'm not sure the true reason. That litter was supposedly off Spike. I got one thng to say to you guys. If you were not there and if you didn't see the breeding you can't say the pedigree is wrong.. No matter what anyone tells you. Don't go around swearing you know because you don't. Mayfield was a nice fellow. He hid lots of happenings and twisted the truth to make his yard look better. I had several of those dog right off Nigger and top bred female all but one quit. Maloney and Tommy Sherwood fought two dog for over two hours. Earl liked Sherwood's dog. Maloney told several people that Nigger was off that dog of Sherwoods. He said Earl brought Nigger's Dam over and bred to that Brindle dog of Sherwoods. Nigger threw lots of Brindle dogs. So it might be true or it might not. I didn't see the4 breeding so who knows if it true or not. What a bunch of silly assumptions you guys swear to. I'm done
Bolero why dont you post the story , and while your at it post the interview with floyd so we can see what his words say ,not a friend , the man himslef , but like i said some folks what to believe regardless of the evidence or common senseQuote:
Originally Posted by bolero
and it looks like your one of them bolero, you have floyds own words the times jan feb issue 1989 , but you dont want to
belive floyds own words and the overwhelming view of the dogmen who had a brain back then with no axe to grind one way or another , but instead you want to belive a story from a friend of floyds rather than floyds own words , cos floyds words prove him a lair on blind billy and eli and you must not want to see it which is pretty sad .
Randy your a right in that we should never say that something is for sure, but neither should anyone, tombstone may be out of gina, but maloney had baby on his yard , and i think you know the deal he had with earl about anything form his pure females, and maloney was known as a slippery one , so who knows, but then we have an audio tape which i have heardQuote:
Originally Posted by Foxman
with mayfield and maloney just after mayfield got tombstone from ron , and on that audio tape maloney tells mayfield, (well hes mommas the same as the old nigger dog you got don, then some few minutes later he must realsie and changes it to the gina bitch .
Now im not going to say your msitaken randy cos i wasnt there when maloney bred toot to whatever female, and he may as you said have had gina on his yard at the time , but that dont prove he bred to her , infact like most folks who understand breeding as i know you do , and jack does and mayfield did, the breeding to gina didnt make sense, but the toot baby one did, it was the right way to breed them dogs and the sensible way, but maybe he did breed to gina if she was on his yard.
Now on another tape from a call mayfield had from a dogman in arkansas i think , who don didnt know personally and who had called him up to talk about the dogs, this man talked about how when gina was supposed to whelping tombstone on maloneys yard she was on another mans yard in another state, which of course was to late for mayfield as tombstone was dead and could not breed to him anymore.SO its all about what makes sense and circimstanstial evidence , but i tend to favour baby as the dam. but as you say anythings possible.
Randy im sure you read most if not all of the posts on this thread ,so i will assume you read mine about how i belive that floyd
lied about blind billy , and as such would mean that elis pedigree is also fake, and that mayfield is more than likely correct about both of those dogs, unknown and true heritage.
Floyds own words and timeline of dobs for both billy and his sire dibo along with the facts we know about when tudor got dibo would make it immposible for dibo to have been the sire of blind billy , and i know it hurts many dogmen who have had
a run in with mayfield in the past to say yes he was correct on something ,but i think that with the blind billy /eli story ,no one needs to be a freind or enemy of either man to see which one is lying or incorrect , floyd does that to himself and i would hope randy that you are able to agree with that even if it hurts to say so.
As for you saying that mayfield hid lots of happenings and twisted the truth to make his yard look better , well why dont you explain what you mean, im sure don was no angel, but i dont think he needed to lie about his yard or how his nigger dogs were bred , and we heard how maloney was a jealous man and started lots of strories about nigger , and we can be far more sure of how nigger is bred which i think is well known and maloney as i mentioned earlier even tells mayfield that tombstone has the same dam as his nigger dog , which was baby so that kind of shows maloney for the kind of man he was , which from all accounts he wasnt a very honest guy and petty sneaky type of guy, but thats the dog game .
I don't give a shit how blind billy or eli are bred. I could NOT, in any way, care any less than I already do about ANY dog's breeding that happened 20+ years ago. Not a single one. All I can focus on are the dogs on my yard and the yards of other men I trust and believe. I haven't read hardly anything you've typed on all of this subject b/c I honestly don't care. I skim over what others on this thread type as they are easier to interpret and comprehend. Again, I don't care about the dog's breedings, so therefore, I couldn't care less about what Mayfield has said about anything other than conditioning. That's the only area I am interested in when it comes to something Don Mayfield has said.Quote:
Originally Posted by projectx
You are obviously insanely in love with Don Mayfild and that's your right. Have at it. For me, it doesn't matter what the subject matter is. When a man makes so many attempts to say so many negative things about other people, then I lose respect for them. It gets old man. Every time you talk to a dude and all he does is run others down. Why is that? What is the source of that? Think about it.
Show me where I said something negative about DM as well. I haven't. If someone isn't licking his crack and thinking his jibber jabber that's so hard to understand some times is the gospel, then you think they are being negative. I don't like him b/c he's an extremely negative human being and I have no time for that.
"Ain't nobody got time fa-dat"
Don Mayfield is the greatest Dog Man that ever lived. He's the most honest man that ever lived - more honest than Jesus. He's undefeated, undisputed and KING OF THE WORLD! Every good dog ever bred NOT by Don is a LIE and their pedigrees really all go back to Don Mayfield. Don Mayfield INVENTED the Pit Bull Dog. Don Mayfield - Heavy Weight Beard Champion of The World.
I LOVE DON MAYFIELD.
There - you happy?........BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Merry Freakin Christmas
ProjectX is a liar.
He doesn't have a single audio tape with ANYONE'S voice talking about anything.
I don't believe for one second you have any tapes with anything on them. I think you are making all of this up 100%.
Prove otherwise Truth Teller!
Thank You very much Foxman for your input. I thought you were still a member on here. I know you knew and lived right there with most of those dog men. Mr. DeCordova had a lot more influence with those dogs around that area than most will credit him to. Cheers
I'm done. To many so called dreamers on here. What ever they heard from whoever makes it so. They act like they knew those old timers and knew they were honest. Dream on. Did you ever see the series House, Although it was said on a TV series. It is true the statement 'Everybody Lies' You are praising Lawbreakers, Potheads and Bootleggers and you swear they are honest. You have more faith in them than I ever did. What does it matter what was out of what at this point. What does it matter what quit and what didn't quit back then. Genetics is tricky and can't be counted on very often. You will believe what you want to even if I do know the truth. See ya. Randy
NQK you can say what you like about me, but this thread was and is about dogs with fake pedsigres or at leasts ones with a known dubioius heritage, and as such if my mentioning them it is badmouthing them , that unfortunatley goes wth the territory.If you read my posts on this thread before writing you might have seen that the only one i would put my hand on my heart and say is undoubltedly fake is the blind billy and eli peds, with tombstone or the others its more a case of weighing up the facts to hand and the word of the ones around back then and decide which you think makes more sense , and i think i have said that although i tend to favour baby as tombstones dam , anything is possible, so maybe instead of you trying to bad mouth mayfield with no reason at all apart from the fact we disagree on hammonds so you want to hate on mayfield becasue of it ,even when the subject of the truth of such an important bloodline in the history of this bred as the ELI bloodline is up for discussion , you would rather not talk about that but waste your time trying to get at me by bad mouthing mayfield instead of taking an interest in the thread and maybe thinking about that, and what makes me laugh is that in your 2 posts , both of which have said nothing on any of the dogs and all they are is a rant about me and mayfield ,when maybe if you were a serious breeder as you say you are , you might have said something about it ,but of course that would mean having to agree with mayfield on something without sarcasm which you arent man enough to do are you.Quote:
Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel
Now as for my audio tapes i have a few of them and for you to call me a lair when you have no reason other than not having ever known of them or probably ever talked to mayfield as your obviously a greenhorn regardless of how long youve been breeding dogs, but the fact that i do have them and only wish i had all 400 of them and what i have said is on the tapes is infact on them ,and im sure that i am not the only one who got audio tapes from mayfield ,but i will call cyj and play the audio to him over the phone and then we can see whos a lair , and maybe the next dog i mention will be a little closer to home for you ,then you can get mad , but sometimes the only way a blind man can see is if you force his eyes wide open ,and by god yours need some serious opening thats for sure.
Now NQK when i prove i have the tapes , i will expect a full appology from you which i want you to confrim on this thread before i call a member on this thread who i have never talked to before but i asked him for his number as he seems to be very knwledgable about the game, and i would be happy to call him and he can confirm that he has infact heard the tapes.
Then i expect you will be a man and say SORRY to me,and if you confirm that you will say sorry when confiramtion of the tapes is given , i will go ahead and call this member who i was hoping to talk to anyway so i hope he wont mind if he can do that .
Now NQK by knowing that i am not a lair when you get confirmation of it, that will of course mean that whether i am correct in my beliefs or not in anything i have said to you before today or from this day forward and whether you agree with it or not i hope you can
get you to the realisation that what i have and im saying to you and others is not being said to take sides for the sake of it just becasue i happen to agree with mayfield or disagree with floyd or anyone else for that matter, its becasue i happen to think it has some truth to it ,but not just from blind faith , but from good old common sense and a little research to as best as possible say what i say , and whether you will agree or disagree with me on matters either past present or future , i have never lied or tried to deseive you or anyone else , so in that alone i hope you will never insult me again as you have done about the audios and call me a liar ,because i am not , and when as in the case of an obvious lie's like blind billy or any others that may follow on this thread, i hope you have the courage to admit you see it even if it means agreeing with me and mayfield and maybe having to disagree with one closer to you .