Spot Pickers

Good Evening Gents. Whats your take on spot picking?
From my part of the world spot picking is very big. The minute weight is put out people want to know the pedigree and dog in question. If he or she is a good one they will hide there best ones under the mill and act like the plague hit. Now My question is. Are my values that of a ideal world what we do not live in where best meets best to determine a true victor @ a certain weight. Take boxing for a example or mma. To get a belt you can never spot pick. either you getting in there or you back out. Many a champions been made out of selective spot picking world wide in history . Is this still happening world wide or does it only happen in some countries?

imo some spot pick to make champion and peddle pups and some folks just stay in their own circle and get accused of spot picking

most do

if you lose into a good one, theres nothing to be ashamed of, and its a motivation to come back better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlackHeartWarrior

Good Evening Gents. Whats your take on spot picking?
From my part of the world spot picking is very big. The minute weight is put out people want to know the pedigree and dog in question. If he or she is a good one they will hide there best ones under the mill and act like the plague hit. Now My question is. Are my values that of a ideal world what we do not live in where best meets best to determine a true victor @ a certain weight. Take boxing for a example or mma. To get a belt you can never spot pick. either you getting in there or you back out. Many a champions been made out of selective spot picking world wide in history . Is this still happening world wide or does it only happen in some countries?

---

Everyone spot picks :idea:

No one matches into a dog they're sure they will lose to ... some just attempt to make it a little more challenging for themselves than others ... while others are just a little more extreme about ensuring their own victory than others :lol:

hm i feel sorry you never met one who didnt Jack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R2L

hm i feel sorry you never met one who didnt Jack.

---

Hmm, you must have lost the humor in the language barrier, so I feel sorry you didn't get the joke :lol:

Stated another way, whom do you know who ever matched into a dog they felt 100% sure they'd lose to?

is there a way to know 100%?
sure there is people who will take any challenge with any dog they have open as long the weight is ok. you don't know any of these?
you dont need to be overconfident for that but if you feel you're going to lose 100%, your dog must be very average(or below) quality and wouldn't be worth to feed in the first place.

edit: sorry i didnt get the joke then, lol.

:lol:

You get it now? 8)

"The minute weight is put out people want to know the pedigree and dog in question." - hahaha then lie

"imo some spot pick to make champion and peddle pups and some folks just stay in their own circle and get accused of spot picking" - Amen

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R2L

is there a way to know 100%?
sure there is people who will take any challenge with any dog they have open as long the weight is ok. you don't know any of these?
you dont need to be overconfident for that but if you feel you're going to lose 100%, your dog must be very average(or below) quality and wouldn't be worth to feed in the first place.

edit: sorry i didnt get the joke then, lol.

---

I agree with the u on this fact. Sure there are some ppl who only contest with odds in their favor. I prefer to prove that my program is worth the weight of any competition/competitor. The saying goes a coward dies a thousand deaths a soldier only dies once!!

Earl Tudor was a top dog man in his day. He stated a match well made is a match well won. You are the Manager- trainer of your dog and know it's weakness and strengths. There are Ace class dogs, B class dogs and C class dogs. All could be deep game. But your B dog or C dog will not have much of a chance winning over a well conditioned Ace dog. You may win gamest in show but still lose your dog, money and the dog pulling event.

I understand about some spot picking or OTC pulls being shown as a win toward a championship. Still unless dogs are specified and you put the weight out there. It is what it is. Now if you know someone is definitely going to bring a Ace dog on you and your dog is not a Ace class dog. There is no shame in not matching your dog into a probable losing situation. Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CYJ

Earl Tudor was a top dog man in his day. He stated a match well made is a match well won. You are the Manager- trainer of your dog and know it's weakness and strengths. There are Ace class dogs, B class dogs and C class dogs. All could be deep game. But your B dog or C dog will not have much of a chance winning over a well conditioned Ace dog. You may win gamest in show but still lose your dog, money and the dog pulling event.
I understand about some spot picking or OTC pulls being shown as a win toward a championship. Still unless dogs are specified and you put the weight out there. It is what it is. Now if you know someone is definitely going to bring a Ace dog on you and your dog is not a Ace class dog. There is no shame in not matching your dog into a probable losing situation. Cheers

---

Well said, same as it's possible to enjoy a clubhouse fight between two good, solid boxers ... without being fooled into thinking either one is Championship caliber.

Jack

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CA Jack

Well said, same as it's possible to enjoy a clubhouse fight between two good, solid boxers ... without being fooled into thinking either one is Championship caliber.

Jack

---

What's funny is that some of the good, solid boxers make it to Championship status simply due to them being good, solid dogs as opposed to the dog that just has one weapon in the arsenal.

This is a good topic. There is a wide spectrum when it comes to setting 'weights and dates'. Some will pick kennels or dogs they have seen in the past in order to put odds in their favor. There is nothing wrong with that because the primary task of every dog owner is to put their animal in the best possible situation for success. Some will stray away from the top camps as they do not feel they have a chance at the tier of competition. Nothing wrong with that as sometimes it is just plain smart to know one's place. Some just have a weight. Period. Nothing wrong with that either.

My issue with spot picking is what one does with the rewards of their decisions. If I match into the first time out, know nothing kennel Joe Smo's of the world and when 3 times by all rights and rules I have a Champion. If I use this spot picking as a means to sell puppies and continue my pounding of the weak then, for me, spot picking is a bad thing.

If I have a 39 male and I go see another 39 male that totally outclasses mine, and that weight is called. I am not going to pick that up. I would not be out there bragging about my 39 being open to the world except for this and that because spot picking quickly evolves into ducking from that point. But, if I know my dog can't win there I may as well shoot him at home, mail my money to the spot and save the trouble all the way around. No need to put my dog in a bad way.

Then, there are people with just weights. They throw them out there and whatever picks them up is who/what picks them up. They go into "Joe Smo" or "Top Gun Ass Kicker Kennel" with the same regard for both. He picks up weights regardless of who they belong to and he finds out where his dogs fit in to the grand scheme of things.

I think lot of spot pickers use money as the means of spot picking. Tons of good dogs, even great dogs belong to people who can't drop 5-10-15-20 stacks on the dogs. That becomes another topic/thread altogether. Lots of people will avoid good dogs/good people by hanging huge money numbers when the two weights could meet. That is another form of spot picking. EWO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EWO

This is a good topic. There is a wide spectrum when it comes to setting 'weights and dates'. Some will pick kennels or dogs they have seen in the past in order to put odds in their favor. There is nothing wrong with that because the primary task of every dog owner is to put their animal in the best possible situation for success. Some will stray away from the top camps as they do not feel they have a chance at the tier of competition. Nothing wrong with that as sometimes it is just plain smart to know one's place. Some just have a weight. Period. Nothing wrong with that either.

My issue with spot picking is what one does with the rewards of their decisions. If I match into the first time out, know nothing kennel Joe Smo's of the world and when 3 times by all rights and rules I have a Champion. If I use this spot picking as a means to sell puppies and continue my pounding of the weak then, for me, spot picking is a bad thing.

If I have a 39 male and I go see another 39 male that totally outclasses mine, and that weight is called. I am not going to pick that up. I would not be out there bragging about my 39 being open to the world except for this and that because spot picking quickly evolves into ducking from that point. But, if I know my dog can't win there I may as well shoot him at home, mail my money to the spot and save the trouble all the way around. No need to put my dog in a bad way.

Then, there are people with just weights. They throw them out there and whatever picks them up is who/what picks them up. They go into "Joe Smo" or "Top Gun Ass Kicker Kennel" with the same regard for both. He picks up weights regardless of who they belong to and he finds out where his dogs fit in to the grand scheme of things.

I think lot of spot pickers use money as the means of spot picking. Tons of good dogs, even great dogs belong to people who can't drop 5-10-15-20 stacks on the dogs. That becomes another topic/thread altogether. Lots of people will avoid good dogs/good people by hanging huge money numbers when the two weights could meet. That is another form of spot picking. EWO

---

Right on EWO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

What's funny is that some of the good, solid boxers make it to Championship status simply due to them being good, solid dogs as opposed to the dog that just has one weapon in the arsenal.

---

Agreed.

Well-rounded dogs are always a threat because they have no glaring weaknesses. They may not be great at anything, but they are rock-solid and respectable at everything. So while they may be outclassed in some respects by a really gifted dog in that area, if that gifted dog has weaknesses in other areas, then ultimately he may be exploited by the proverbial Achilles' Heel.

I have always favored "good, solid" dogs in my program, trying to make extreme gameness and durability their distinguishably-excellent trait. Particularly in my earlier breeding career when I wasn't breeding so much for style, or speed, on top of all that ... but at first mainly for just really game, tough dogs. I have heard probably several hundred people over the years say my dogs had "no ability" ... because they did not razzle-dazzle anyone. In fact, many times my dogs faced other dogs that were much more devastating than they were ... but ultimately these "high ability" dogs lost to mine, precisely because these other dogs had weaknesses in too many other areas (particularly gameness, durability, and stamina). So, when the smoke cleared, mine were still there, ready and willing to go ... after these "high ability" dogs slowed down, got hurt & tired, and decided they had had enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TopShelfKennels

Right on EWO.

---

Yup.

For the sake of not wanting to go into my own stuff I'd like to know how it's bred at least, I just flat out don't like that. My second and last question about the opponent would be it's match record, just because I think it's a fair question.
On another note lets not act like it's easy to get hooked every time you have a weight ready, for whatever reasons many dogs in the same era never got to meet. Was it spot picking or timing or simply the men didn't know of each other?

If you, as a person, don't want to go into your own stuff, then you shouldn't put any of your stuff out there. That is how you avoid that situation.

The match record doesn't really factor into my decision. Are there times I'd like to jump on winners? Sure. Been successful at doing so and not so successful at times for varying reasons. If you garner a reputation of being hard to beat no matter what, a lot of doors are going to shut on you especially if you're not going for stacks of cheese.

I can think of a lot of quality dogs that met during my time in dogs. I can think of some that didn't. Without knowing the men who didn't meet, I couldn't really offer up any real reason.

I agree with this post as well. I have never bred an awful lot of dogs so I can't really answer a question about going into my own. But like Frosty said that is easily preventable.

The only thing I have ever been concerned with is weights and dates. How a dog is bred or what he has accomplished is really of no concern to me. When I take my dog off the chain I have to know he is at his best, I am at my best, we are at our best and then we find out where those three things measure up. If I need to factor in how he is bred or what he has done or who has him ready then I can't get a true 'check' of where my team is at. If that makes sense.

I was having a conversation once about bringing out dogs the first time on the cheap to make the game check count. I pretty much said I would like to go into another first time out dog. This guy points out a black male that looked like he had lived the hard life and simply said, "That dog right there has won all six of his first time out matches". I did not get it at first but he was pretty much telling me that if I factored in another dogs pedigree or resume then I was setting myself up to either under prepare or over prepare. If you are right when you leave the only thing that can hurt you is a better dog. And there is nothing wrong with that outcome.


Nowadays I think money separates a lot of the quality dogs from seeing one another. Tons of quality animals are owned by guys that can't swing 5-10-15 stacks. On the flip side lots of run of the mill good dogs are protected by the fact it takes 10K to see them go. The second part of quality dogs not finding one another is the day and age. It is a felony to carry your dog across state lines. That in itself is tightening up the circles some. Before long they may be called State Champs. There are lots of reasons the top two at a given time did not meet. Those reasons can be as individual as the owners and the dogs themselves. EWO







UOTE=FrostyPaws;20171]If you, as a person, don't want to go into your own stuff, then you shouldn't put any of your stuff out there. That is how you avoid that situation.

The match record doesn't really factor into my decision. Are there times I'd like to jump on winners? Sure. Been successful at doing so and not so successful at times for varying reasons. If you garner a reputation of being hard to beat no matter what, a lot of doors are going to shut on you especially if you're not going for stacks of cheese.

I can think of a lot of quality dogs that met during my time in dogs. I can think of some that didn't. Without knowing the men who didn't meet, I couldn't really offer up any real reason.[/QUOTE]

And. When it comes to going into my own. If I had bred a lot of dogs over the years and had established my own I may have a different way of thinking. I can't really say. So my post was not to give an opinion on the actual act of going into one's own, but more so to agree it is easily preventable by not selling the dogs. But that is another topic altogether. Someone who has bred a lot, created and sold a lot could better answer that question than me. My apologies as I re-read that part it sounded like I was answering a question instead of agreeing with another poster. EWO

I think a lot of times we talk about the bad apples or the bad aspects of the game. Lots of times this game is filled with good people and good dog people who meet, find out an answer, and move on with a handshake, and maybe even a beer or two. I am guilty of this as well because it is just easier to find the bad in given situations.

With that said, the middle of the post about going into winners brought back a memory that figures into this topic.

We left from down south and went in up north. It was a five per side deal. Two of our side cancelled the night before and the third had a family medical matter minutes before we left. My buddy and I struck out on our own. When we got there it was a five per your side but 30 on ours gathering. They come out of the car with the biggest 37lb bitch I had ever seen. I make the statement I'm not giving any weight regardless of how far I drove, or how "scared" you think I am. The first time out bitch of mine was as ready as I could have possibly had her. My buddy and I were in a hostile environment as the only two white guys in the building, hell, even my dog was black. LOL. At sundown well over half the crown moved to another room and prayed with their Muslim faith. I was way nervous. The they told me their dog was a 2XW and needed a third to get to a 4XW down the road. She had 5 RIP's along the way. Nothing had stayed with her more than thirty minutes. She was the baddest bitch since Molly Bee or Queen of Hearts. The this one guy got right up in my face and said, You got any questions about what you are about to get?" I firmly answered, "I just need to know how much she weighs". The room erupted in laughter. We did the dogs. It took 61 minutes and my female was on all fours over a stretched out dog. We went into the bee hive and won. Then I was really worried and was wondering about the exit strategy. Turns out I did not need one. They were the most respectable. sportsman like dog men I had ever met. They were a solid bunch of guys that understoon they were out "keeped"/kept and out dogged on that particular night. It is one of my fondest memories in the dogs.

So as long as the weights are right I am good. Sorry for the length. Waiting for shift change. EWO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

If you, as a person, don't want to go into your own stuff, then you shouldn't put any of your stuff out there. That is how you avoid that situation.

The match record doesn't really factor into my decision. Are there times I'd like to jump on winners? Sure. Been successful at doing so and not so successful at times for varying reasons. If you garner a reputation of being hard to beat no matter what, a lot of doors are going to shut on you especially if you're not going for stacks of cheese.

I can think of a lot of quality dogs that met during my time in dogs. I can think of some that didn't. Without knowing the men who didn't meet, I couldn't really offer up any real reason.

---

EWO, it's always nice to win those particular type of shows. I have a couple of memories along the same line with a dog of mine and some that belonged to friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EWO

I think a lot of times we talk about the bad apples or the bad aspects of the game. Lots of times this game is filled with good people and good dog people who meet, find out an answer, and move on with a handshake, and maybe even a beer or two. I am guilty of this as well because it is just easier to find the bad in given situations.
With that said, the middle of the post about going into winners brought back a memory that figures into this topic.
We left from down south and went in up north. It was a five per side deal. Two of our side cancelled the night before and the third had a family medical matter minutes before we left. My buddy and I struck out on our own. When we got there it was a five per your side but 30 on ours gathering. They come out of the car with the biggest 37lb bitch I had ever seen. I make the statement I'm not giving any weight regardless of how far I drove, or how "scared" you think I am. The first time out bitch of mine was as ready as I could have possibly had her. My buddy and I were in a hostile environment as the only two white guys in the building, hell, even my dog was black. LOL. At sundown well over half the crown moved to another room and prayed with their Muslim faith. I was way nervous. The they told me their dog was a 2XW and needed a third to get to a 4XW down the road. She had 5 RIP's along the way. Nothing had stayed with her more than thirty minutes. She was the baddest bitch since Molly Bee or Queen of Hearts. The this one guy got right up in my face and said, You got any questions about what you are about to get?" I firmly answered, "I just need to know how much she weighs". The room erupted in laughter. We did the dogs. It took 61 minutes and my female was on all fours over a stretched out dog. We went into the bee hive and won. Then I was really worried and was wondering about the exit strategy. Turns out I did not need one. They were the most respectable. sportsman like dog men I had ever met. They were a solid bunch of guys that understoon they were out "keeped"/kept and out dogged on that particular night. It is one of my fondest memories in the dogs.
So as long as the weights are right I am good. Sorry for the length. Waiting for shift change. EWO

---

Nice story. Honestly, over the years I learned never to pay attention to how bad a "killer" someone has ... in fact, at this stage, I smile inside when I hear that ... because I would say at least 70% of the time that "killer" winds up stretched out, or standing in the corner, when the smoke clears.

Jack

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EWO

I think a lot of times we talk about the bad apples or the bad aspects of the game. Lots of times this game is filled with good people and good dog people who meet, find out an answer, and move on with a handshake, and maybe even a beer or two. I am guilty of this as well because it is just easier to find the bad in given situations.

With that said, the middle of the post about going into winners brought back a memory that figures into this topic.

We left from down south and went in up north. It was a five per side deal. Two of our side cancelled the night before and the third had a family medical matter minutes before we left. My buddy and I struck out on our own. When we got there it was a five per your side but 30 on ours gathering. They come out of the car with the biggest 37lb bitch I had ever seen. I make the statement I'm not giving any weight regardless of how far I drove, or how "scared" you think I am. The first time out bitch of mine was as ready as I could have possibly had her. My buddy and I were in a hostile environment as the only two white guys in the building, hell, even my dog was black. LOL. At sundown well over half the crown moved to another room and prayed with their Muslim faith. I was way nervous. The they told me their dog was a 2XW and needed a third to get to a 4XW down the road. She had 5 RIP's along the way. Nothing had stayed with her more than thirty minutes. She was the baddest bitch since Molly Bee or Queen of Hearts. The this one guy got right up in my face and said, You got any questions about what you are about to get?" I firmly answered, "I just need to know how much she weighs". The room erupted in laughter. We did the dogs. It took 61 minutes and my female was on all fours over a stretched out dog. We went into the bee hive and won. Then I was really worried and was wondering about the exit strategy. Turns out I did not need one. They were the most respectable. sportsman like dog men I had ever met. They were a solid bunch of guys that understoon they were out "keeped"/kept and out dogged on that particular night. It is one of my fondest memories in the dogs.

So as long as the weights are right I am good. Sorry for the length. Waiting for shift change. EWO

---

for such a short story that was a great read EWO, and a great result for you.

I think knowing how your opponent is bred is a legit question, hell it was usually in the reports I read in sdj damn near every time so lets not act like I said something brand new. The only one I ever took out won in short order, prior to the event only thing I knew about the opposition was his weight and his lil rep that made it seem like he bit bricks in half, turns out he had less ability than us and could never get his "famous" hold and was picked up before the inevitable happened. The more they hyped him up the more I wanted him because I knew what I had seen out of mine and I was confident when they thought we'd run just cause the ped was pretty, NOT ME!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wise

For the sake of not wanting to go into my own stuff I'd like to know how it's bred at least, I just flat out don't like that. My second and last question about the opponent would be it's match record, just because I think it's a fair question.
On another note lets not act like it's easy to get hooked every time you have a weight ready, for whatever reasons many dogs in the same era never got to meet. Was it spot picking or timing or simply the men didn't know of each other?

---

Well i never ask, but normally word travels and you hear what you going into or bred. If you know the folks typically you know the types of dogs they run. If I like Eli dogs then I will familiar myself with folks with Eli dogs so i can see how their dogs compare to mines if they are bred alike will even give them a pup or two when i breed so i can see how my dogs excel in others hands. Normally just put out a weight, folks will typically say i have a 2x looking for 2x and up. So if mines isn't I dont answer the bell unless i hear that dog still looking after time and say hey i dont have a 2x but i have your weight. Many dogs dont get too meet because folks dont want to risk losing their "Ace" or "Badass" hound of now. Some folks will work avenues to not meet another bad ass hound before they are titled so even if they lose, they can say they loss to a Ch.

Perfect example my uncle had a nice Ch, that was gaining notice, well he was chasing another Ch and another Ch was chasing that CH. Before you knew it, 5 CH's all chasing each other. They couldn't agree to terms so i said i got his weight and I will bet CH money even tho mines was a 1x, my uncle kindly told me no, he seen my boy go just as i seen his go. He said that boy will either embarass my boy or i will have to retire my boy afterwards because i seen the cutters and those boars he caught aint no joke. Well the original CH end up losing to another CH. Then 1 other ch got retired leaving the last 2, they both went opposite ways, one becoming a GRCH the other a 4x. They danced and the GrCh end up losing to my uncles 4x who became GRCCH. He took him back out and lost to a Ch. Could we say they were ducking? Yes you could say it, but can't blame him for wanting a hound that was considered upper echelon by many.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EWO

This is a good topic. There is a wide spectrum when it comes to setting 'weights and dates'. Some will pick kennels or dogs they have seen in the past in order to put odds in their favor. There is nothing wrong with that because the primary task of every dog owner is to put their animal in the best possible situation for success. Some will stray away from the top camps as they do not feel they have a chance at the tier of competition. Nothing wrong with that as sometimes it is just plain smart to know one's place. Some just have a weight. Period. Nothing wrong with that either.

My issue with spot picking is what one does with the rewards of their decisions. If I match into the first time out, know nothing kennel Joe Smo's of the world and when 3 times by all rights and rules I have a Champion. If I use this spot picking as a means to sell puppies and continue my pounding of the weak then, for me, spot picking is a bad thing.

If I have a 39 male and I go see another 39 male that totally outclasses mine, and that weight is called. I am not going to pick that up. I would not be out there bragging about my 39 being open to the world except for this and that because spot picking quickly evolves into ducking from that point. But, if I know my dog can't win there I may as well shoot him at home, mail my money to the spot and save the trouble all the way around. No need to put my dog in a bad way.

Then, there are people with just weights. They throw them out there and whatever picks them up is who/what picks them up. They go into "Joe Smo" or "Top Gun Ass Kicker Kennel" with the same regard for both. He picks up weights regardless of who they belong to and he finds out where his dogs fit in to the grand scheme of things.

I think lot of spot pickers use money as the means of spot picking. Tons of good dogs, even great dogs belong to people who can't drop 5-10-15-20 stacks on the dogs. That becomes another topic/thread altogether. Lots of people will avoid good dogs/good people by hanging huge money numbers when the two weights could meet. That is another form of spot picking. EWO

---

Great posting!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EWO

I think a lot of times we talk about the bad apples or the bad aspects of the game. Lots of times this game is filled with good people and good dog people who meet, find out an answer, and move on with a handshake, and maybe even a beer or two. I am guilty of this as well because it is just easier to find the bad in given situations.

With that said, the middle of the post about going into winners brought back a memory that figures into this topic.

We left from down south and went in up north. It was a five per side deal. Two of our side cancelled the night before and the third had a family medical matter minutes before we left. My buddy and I struck out on our own. When we got there it was a five per your side but 30 on ours gathering. They come out of the car with the biggest 37lb bitch I had ever seen. I make the statement I'm not giving any weight regardless of how far I drove, or how "scared" you think I am. The first time out bitch of mine was as ready as I could have possibly had her. My buddy and I were in a hostile environment as the only two white guys in the building, hell, even my dog was black. LOL. At sundown well over half the crown moved to another room and prayed with their Muslim faith. I was way nervous. The they told me their dog was a 2XW and needed a third to get to a 4XW down the road. She had 5 RIP's along the way. Nothing had stayed with her more than thirty minutes. She was the baddest bitch since Molly Bee or Queen of Hearts. The this one guy got right up in my face and said, You got any questions about what you are about to get?" I firmly answered, "I just need to know how much she weighs". The room erupted in laughter. We did the dogs. It took 61 minutes and my female was on all fours over a stretched out dog. We went into the bee hive and won. Then I was really worried and was wondering about the exit strategy. Turns out I did not need one. They were the most respectable. sportsman like dog men I had ever met. They were a solid bunch of guys that understoon they were out "keeped"/kept and out dogged on that particular night. It is one of my fondest memories in the dogs.

So as long as the weights are right I am good. Sorry for the length. Waiting for shift change. EWO

---

Ewo, I absolutely loved this post and I read quite a few of your postings and enjoy them, as well. Great posting!
:appl: