The Average of a Line

I posted this on another board and thought id toss it here so see what folks have to say....

Many people will say... a line is only as good as its average dog. Is it also fair to say that a line is only as great as its best dogs?

MOST people wont see the average of a line, they will see or hear about the above average dogs or the fantastic and exceptional dogs in the line... the ones being campaigned. Whether u are public or private most likely those are the ones your line will be known for.

If a line is wrought with average dogs and they produce like dogs, never producing the exceptional examples that become figureheads, what can u really say about that line?


to ask the question again in case i lost direction... Many people will say... a line is only as good as its average dog. Is it also fair to say that a line is only as great as its best dogs?

Interesting topic.

IMO, the average of a line is a concept that cannot be adequately defined. It is a "general idea" of what can be expected from dogs of that line, not an absolute. However, IMO, general knowledge of the average of the line (ultimately) is a far more important understanding to have than merely knowing who "the best" of the line is ... if a person is looking to invest his time and life in breeding dogs down from that line.

For example, if "Slick Rick's Grand Champion King Kong" was the greatest dog from X line ... and one of the greatest dogs ever ... and you decided to base your yard on this line because of this ... but the AVERAGE of X line consisted of substandard animals (with King Kong just being a freak exception) ... then the lion's share of your efforts would be wasted in feeding & breeding substandard plugs and producing something generally unable to compete with your peers.

By contrast, if you happened to like "Dogman's Ch Spot" ... who, though he may not be "the greatest" at anything, was still damned good at everything ... and if the average of his line was known to be damned good, consistently-competitive dogs "in general" ... I can truthfully promise you that you would be FAR better served linebreeding off of Spot's line than linebreeding off of King Kong's line (even if King Kong were the better dog).

Therefore, although not able to be quantified exactly, a basic grasp of the true quality of "the average of a line" is a FAR more important understanding to have as a dogman than is knowing that some particular dog was "the best" of his line :idea:

Jack

Very interesting. I live in EU and most of us here have very limited space. I need to feed dogs that produce a high % of show worthy dogs. I could not have a line that on occasion will give me a good one. I rather have a line that constantly gives me average dogs that i can show. I know some guys that constantly looks for that awesome dog before they even consider show a dog. Sometimes they go through 3-4 litters before they get a show dog. And even then those dogs arent special. This is why i don't care about blood at all, and focus only on the man behind the dogs when i acquire dogs.

Absolutely.

And, for this reason, as a breeder, I *only* dealt with with high-percentage animals and made it my business to keep my own family that way.

I could not be in the "pup replacement" business, if it didn't turn out; I had to be in the "damn, I want another one of those" business, because it did what they'd hoped 8)

Jack

Thats true! This is off topic, but i need to ask. How are you holding up without a yard of dogs to care for? I was away last weekend for 2 days for some fun. First thing i do when i come hone is spend 10 hours with the dogs, and i thought to myself: I would go nuts without my dogs.

Good question :)

I am doing fine. What I really miss is the 50 acres of woods I left to come down here. I do miss my dogs at times. I miss seeing them out there, bouncing around, and just seeing their little personalities express themselves out there on the chain. I miss having several dogs (usually Silverback and 2 bitches) lying there on the couch. And I also miss constantly thinking about "what breedings" I need to do to carry on what my vision was. I also miss "having a look" to see if my dogs are still performing athletically like they're supposed to ;)

What I don't miss is the constant worry about "what's going on" in my yard. Did someone see my dogs? Did someone report them? Did a stray get on the yard, and is it screaming its life away while one of mine is killing it? Etc., etc. That I don't miss at all: the constant worry that goes with having a yard.

It was hard to let go, and yet I would do it all over again, especially with Silverback gone now. He was the last thing keeping me in, so when he died right when I was making the move, that told me my timing in getting out was perfect. I have had/bred a lot of great dogs, and even though Poncho was my best producer, and Stormbringer was my best overall dog, Silverback IMO produced as consistently as Poncho did (just most of his pups never got shown) ... and Silverback could finish as fast and brutally as Stormy could too ... on top of which, athletic and personality-wise, Silverback was my very favorite dog I have ever owned in 23 years and hundreds of dogs ... and no one will ever be able to replace him.

Jack

Fair enough! I understand and respect your choices. I'm relatively new at this and have alot to accomplish before i can even think of doing something else. I think that if you're going to have success in anything you have to have a special mindset. Until i have accomplished my goals i will be enjoying my dogs for many years to come. Maybe in 15 years i'm there and can travel the world fly fishing instead :)

The part about not having to worry about shit sounds really good.

This should be a 'cut and paste' item. It will answer maybe half the questions asked on this board as well as many more. It is like a 'dog breeding for dummies' book. EWO

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Interesting topic.

IMO, the average of a line is a concept that cannot be adequately defined. It is a "general idea" of what can be expected from dogs of that line, not an absolute. However, IMO, general knowledge of the average of the line (ultimately) is a far more important understanding to have than merely knowing who "the best" of the line is ... if a person is looking to invest his time and life in breeding dogs down from that line.

For example, if "Slick Rick's Grand Champion King Kong" was the greatest dog from X line ... and one of the greatest dogs ever ... and you decided to base your yard on this line because of this ... but the AVERAGE of X line consisted of substandard animals (with King Kong just being a freak exception) ... then the lion's share of your efforts would be wasted in feeding & breeding substandard plugs and producing something generally unable to compete with your peers.

By contrast, if you happened to like "Dogman's Ch Spot" ... who, though he may not be "the greatest" at anything, was still damned good at everything ... and if the average of his line was known to be damned good, consistently-competitive dogs "in general" ... I can truthfully promise you that you would be FAR better served linebreeding off of Spot's line than linebreeding off of King Kong's line (even if King Kong were the better dog).

Therefore, although not able to be quantified exactly, a basic grasp of the true quality of "the average of a line" is a FAR more important understanding to have as a dogman than is knowing that some particular dog was "the best" of his line :idea:

Jack

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Good question :)

I am doing fine. What I really miss is the 50 acres of woods I left to come down here. I do miss my dogs at times. I miss seeing them out there, bouncing around, and just seeing their little personalities express themselves out there on the chain. I miss having several dogs (usually Silverback and 2 bitches) lying there on the couch. And I also miss constantly thinking about "what breedings" I need to do to carry on what my vision was. I also miss "having a look" to see if my dogs are still performing athletically like they're supposed to ;)

What I don't miss is the constant worry about "what's going on" in my yard. Did someone see my dogs? Did someone report them? Did a stray get on the yard, and is it screaming its life away while one of mine is killing it? Etc., etc. That I don't miss at all: the constant worry that goes with having a yard.

It was hard to let go, and yet I would do it all over again, especially with Silverback gone now. He was the last thing keeping me in, so when he died right when I was making the move, that told me my timing in getting out was perfect. I have had/bred a lot of great dogs, and even though Poncho was my best producer, and Stormbringer was my best overall dog, Silverback IMO produced as consistently as Poncho did (just most of his pups never got shown) ... and Silverback could finish as fast and brutally as Stormy could too ... on top of which, athletic and personality-wise, Silverback was my very favorite dog I have ever owned in 23 years and hundreds of dogs ... and no one will ever be able to replace him.

Jack

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Yeah... I bet you miss all the retards that call and ask questions that showcase just how stupid tbey are.

Yeah not many options when u have a yard full or dogs I got a wood fence inside the chain link and I still worry when or if they get hot (for a # of reasons) they can and will bite right threw or jump over that shit ! U really have to love these hounds to keep it up!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EWO

This should be a 'cut and paste' item. It will answer maybe half the questions asked on this board as well as many more. It is like a 'dog breeding for dummies' book. EWO

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Thanks. Yeah, too many people get caught up with "the best" of everything ... which really is non-thinking. For example, you always see people wanting to know "the best" wormer ... "the best" kibble ... "the best" Frisco dog ... "the best" Mayday dog ... or whatever. But, here again, this is basically non-thinking.

It demonstrates FAR better (and deeper knowledge) to know everything about wormers ... or to know everything about canine nutrition ... or everything about Frisco and his line ... etc., etc. ... than it does to be able to answer a single trivia question about which is "the best." Because, really, the more you really know, the more you realize there IS NO "best wormer" (you need to pick the right one for the right job) ... there IS no "best kibble" (you shouldn't feed kibble at all LOL) ... there IS NO "best Frisco dog" (there's a lot of truly great ones), etc.

Therefore, to know your average tendencies, essentially, is to have real knowledge about something rather than beginner hysteria over one animal.

Jack

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Originally Posted by evolutionkennels

Yeah... I bet you miss all the retards that call and ask questions that showcase just how stupid tbey are.

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I stopped making my phone number public back in 2006 ... and I change my phone number every so often so as NOT to get calls from folks, as people have a tendency to pass on phone numbers without the owner's permission.

I am now very selective as to I am going to spend time talking to.

I remember when I made this decision: I (literally) got about 15 phone calls from people I did not know, each one of which lasted :15 to an hour, and my entire day (and much of my evening) was utterly wasted with a piece of plastic glued to my ear, talking to people I didn't know, all of whom were picking my brain for information.

I finally said, "Enough!", and never made my number public again :lol:

Jack