Anyone actually see enough out of this line to vouch for it ? On paper it's interesting , but we all know just how much value is in paper... Thanks.
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Anyone actually see enough out of this line to vouch for it ? On paper it's interesting , but we all know just how much value is in paper... Thanks.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...?dog_id=443617 i had this bitch only a lil v.jackson in her to she was a decent bulldog. Her mom quenne was a good solid bulldog.
Seen a few go, a guy had a couple of them 5 or 6 he supposedly got from VJ and a guy VJ sent him to.. He bred them and showed a bunch of the ones down off them, had some good ones. All were strong as an ox, only a few showed heart. If they got under you though they could ruin, wreck or kill one very quick. I was working a VJ x Redboy dog for a friend, he showed good for him, put in him shape and put him on something that started fast like him, he didnt like it at all then decided to stop under 30. All the ones I seen quit off that stuff, quit in under 30. The other ones were game as the day is, still bit hard but seem more smart in their movement and paced themselves.
V. Jackson and self started out as young men in the dog game. My name is J. Young. I was his silent partner in the game we met up at H.Teals. He was a Marine Staff Sargent and was transferred from Florida to Paris Island.
V. Jacksons grew up in Texas and lived close To Mayfield. He knew most all the Texas dog men. He knew about all of the Florida dog men along with many of the Georgia dog men and some of the N.C. dog men. Through his connections I got to meet or know a lot of these dog men. Some on just a speaking bases some on a personnel bases.
Where I lived in S.C. there were many other dog persons within a 20 to 60 minute drive in any direction.
As I read some of the thoughts and articles on feeding and dog conditioning of today. I saw that V.J. was way ahead of his time in feeding and working a dog back then. Much of what he did was like Mayfield considered it to be done. Working and feeding as close to the way a Wolf or Coyote would hunt and eat. V.J. made some great improvements over Mayfield's feeding method with a few simple modifications. I might add he did not use a lot of Kibbled dog food.
He learned the correct use of a med combo of Pref D 2X by the UpJohn company and Dex or Azium. He and Sonny Shropshire tried the fabled Steroid keep that O. Stevens said he was using. Used this steroid keep one time and dropped it. Was not worth all the bad side effects. The Pref D 2X/Azium combo was not used to dry a dog out. But to protect them during the pulling match and shock afterwards. Powerful control on bleeding, swelling, along with creating a deep slow breathing effect. That helped the dog to not run hot.
Never understood all that talk about drying a dog out. Gave water etc. that was needed right up to six hours of weigh in. If one use plenty of animal fat in the feed keep will be no water problem. A dog gets plenty of work endurance from use of the animal fat in the presence of plenty of water.
We started out with two little Orbie Coplin bitches that were bred up close to Heinzl first Colby/Dibo dogs. One was called Young's Tina and the other was called Jackson's Pokey. The stud dogs we started out with were Jackson's Hank, Mayfield's Snake and Mayfield's Sunshine. V.J. later added another stud dog from Mayfield called Jackson's Banjo off the Snake dog. V.J. had another hell of a dog called Sun Down. We made a big mistake by not breeding to him. He had some staff breeding in him. So V.J. would not use him.
The first breeding off Snake x Tina produced three champions. These dogs were calm and solid. The Hank and Sunshine dogs were also. Biggest arguments between us on the breeding. Was on to much breeding around the Snake dog. To many shy and skittish type dogs were showing up later on. Snake in his last match was winning and in the back end of the other dog. The dog men in that corner started screaming beating on sides of pit. Snake spooked and run. Was what I was told since I was not there.
V.J. matched into Pool Hall Red. Was a tough tight match down to the wire. Was V.J.'s bitch up to scratch. Same crap pulled again. The Pool Hall fans ran around to our corner. When V.J. let go of his bitch. This bunch screamed beat on metal objects etc.. V.J.'s dog stopped about two or three seconds to look at this. Refocused to finish scratch but got counted out before getting all the way across. The way it can be sometimes in another home town with only four of you and a bunch of them. LOL
Later on Pool Hall got her arse handed to her by Mayfield's Easy. Then later Easy got her arse handed to her by Stinson&Golver's Ruby. Saw both of these matches. All were tough dogs to the end of the outcome. Once you leave the local matching into each other events. Step into that fast lane of dog pulling. You are in a whole different world of competition and types of Dog men..
V.J. wanted lots of mouth and ability since he knew how to shape one. Near the end when he bred into his dogs the last of my Carver-Creel/Boudreaux/Mayfield dogs. They started coming a much larger weight size. The earlier breedings without the Carver added were 40 to 30 pound dogs. This line of dogs carried a lot of the Dibo family and Colby breeding. Many were very slow maturing dogs. Need to be at least 28 months old before schooling.
Jackson lost most of the best dogs from my last Carver breedings due to a very personnel problem of a next door neighbor. Neighbor went over and shot my Tango and Cash dogs along with some others. Some other ones got drowned that first year in Texas by a flash flood and others stolen by local Texas dog thieves.
All that was left of that blood line was the Harley dog. Harley was a easy going young dog at 15 months old and showed no desire to take hold of a dog. I told V.J.. to put him too the side till he was at least 3 years old. Breed him if he had to see how the pups acted and turned out. Use him as his outcross stud dog. Since Tango and Cash were awesome dogs at 15 months old. One looked like Bullyson and the other like Eli Jr. Both were solid black dogs. One other Black and White male owned by D. Jones. That showed good was killed by the H.S. The last male and bitch along with Harley were fawn buckskin and white markings. These two except Harley got drowned in that Flash flood.
Our dogs were no better or less than the other dog families of that era. You get a good one they can get it on. Will have good breathing/wrestling/ and gut back end style fighting. I would put them in the class of the Eli dogs. Best matched in the cold weather with a little more weight in the back end. To much of the Mayfield Snake breeding was the weak link in these dogs.
The blood line cross I wanted to breed in the first dogs we had and blend it. Was Vindicater and Black Friday owned by A.Brewer. Zebo was to far away to travel to. After V.J. beat A. Brewer's Chief dog and Snooty. I used and worked a C. Medlin dog for Braddock named Mr. Clean that won over L.Pratt. We ended up being S.C. rivals against the N.C. rivals. My Young's Tina bitch was bred perfect to cross to the Lonzo line. They knew it and were not to willing to let me get that recipe.
I am hoping that Hammerpits and TarHeel get to make a breeding to McGee's Apostle dog etc.. McGee's has one of the last working old family dogs of my dog era. I could get back in the game but just too old now. I would start back with his line to build my own line.
I am a firm believer that the Colby line was to the dog game like the Hatch blood was to the Chicken men. The Corvino/Tudor was the Claret side that put the mouth and cutting and the Red Nose/Brindle Lightner blood helped balance out the both with added gameness. Not saying that the Colby or Corvino/Tudor dogs lacked gameness.
Just IMHO and all statements are for Old History and entertainment only. I got to live in a great Dog Era that will never be seen again. Lots of good dogs out there today. But no mater how good or bad if you can not shape one. Will still end up in the losing column more than the winning. In my time in the game saw good dogs lose to better conditioned curs due to lack of proper conditioning. Good luck to all.
Tell us more about the Sun dog? Heard lots of stories. One including a lawn mower. Live in NC and was a young buck in the very days you speak of. I have often heard Mr. Jackson was ahead of his time in conditioning and especially feeding.
When I first met V.J. and visited his yard. He had Sundown and two young dogs off Sundown that were called Rock and Bud Wiezer. All good dogs. Did not know what bitch he used to get those dogs. May have been the Jackson's Pepper bitch. He had her and the Hank dog. Hank was a young dog at the time. We did not know how great a dog he would become.
Sun Down was a reddish buckskin with a black mask. Looked similar in build to the Sorrels dogs. Sun Down was bought when V.J. lived in Florida. A friend of V.J.'s told him about a crazy acting bulldog his neighbor had for a pet. But could do nothing with the dog. Was fight crazy and would attack his lawn mower if he tried to use it.
V.J. bought Sun Down with his UKC papers for $50.00. I considered Sun Down the second best show dog V.J. ever owned after the Hank dog. Sun Down had a hard mouth would work out every hold to the hilt. Was a hard charging in your face Mike Tyson brawler. It was kill or be killed with this dog. No quarters given or taken. Would scratch so hard could almost knock the other handler out of his corner. The skin on this dog's head would start moving all around on his head like crazy. Would start popping and chattering his teeth when he saw you were carrying him to a show ring. W. Truett to this day still considers Sun Down one of the best dogs he ever saw shown and that V.J. owned.
Sun Down was the dog that beat A.Brewer's CH Chief dog. Was a good match but Chief could not keep Sun Down off him no matter what he tried. Atlas had to pick Chief up to save him. We all lost a lot of these dogs early in their lives due to Heart Worms. Was a new thing to most of us. Arsenic treatments back then could be as bad as the heart worms.
Lost Sun Down and Hank to the heart worms. Never got to bred any of my Hank Tina bitches back to the Hank dog. Or the Sunshine Tina bitches back to Sunshine. V.J. sent one Sunshine x Tina bitch to Mayfield called Tish to breed back to Sunshine. Mayfield kept her for himself and bred her back into his dogs. Was called Mayfield's Tish.
I was referring to Son, off Tacoma Jack, I spelled it the wrong way. EWO
cyj if you dont mind me asking how was the black friday dog bread. And what traits did the Vindicater dogs have?
I believe Son was a sibling brother to V.J.'s Tunney dog. Remember Tunney but not the Son dog or his sister Sox. Was something about Son attacking a lawn mover. May have gotten himself killed or maimed for his troubles. No longer remember. Tunney looked like a small version of the Snake Jr. dog.
By then V.J. had for as I was concerned bred to much around the Snake dog. I let V.J. breed Tunney to my Face bitch and to my Monkey bitch to strengthen his line back up. They were to man shy and small boned for my liking. I let him have all the pups except two pups that went to Marty Hill. Those breeding's he was very happy with.
V.J. lost some from that Texas flood. Some were stolen or shot by the next door neighbor before leaving for Texas. Good thing that Neighbor did not have a AK-15 with a 30 round clip. Might have shot up the whole dog yard along with the house. May sound funny now but was no laughing matter back then.
The first breeding off Snake and Tina were the best dogs. of that cross. Stagger Lee won three/Fanny won three and Ginger won three. A. Howle wanted to have a friendly short pull with Ginger. His bitch was a Dailey Tacoma Staff x C.Medlin cross. Was a good little bitch. I liked those dogs myself. Ginger killed this bitch in less than two minutes with one hard bite to the chest. That first cross produced some small weight dogs with good bone structure/deep chested. Very hard bite with teeth big as a large catch weight dog. Had the Colby type heads with a nice Terrier type body build. Had the Colby type colors and markings.
Just some ole history and entertainment thoughts from 40 years ago.
Son found his way to this area. He was well on his way to being the next great thing. Nothing could stay with him. Real special. WC was mowing grass and spun the lawnmower to go the other way and Son shot across and stuck his foot in the blade. A terrible loss. He went back to VJ but never heard much from him after that. EWO
Ditto EWO. Like I said earlier if you got a good one were very rough and hard mouth. Never came but one way or the other. Very good or very bad. Lot of these dogs were also pushed to young. Most were slow maturing.
Overtime I found that the Heinzl line was hard to click with just any blood lines. Seemed that Howard Tobe/Rose/Tudor's Red Bill blood line worked the best. The Lonzo dogs would have crossed real well with that line. The Kephart dogs were to far out West as well to try out. I was a family working man on a working mans pay grade.
Wanted to try a lot of things but enough money was always a issue. Overtime I bred too many crosses and had too many dogs. Have at one time almost ninety dogs. As one dog man said on here can consume you totally in mind/body/soul and use up all extra money and then some. I know what he meant because I got to experience it.
Hello Big Foot23. That was a long time ago so can not say for sure. Seems Black Friday may have been bred a little different. Having more Lonzo Mike in him and maybe even that long's Mitzie. But can not be sure. He was a lonzo Pratt bed dog that was built more like the Mike dog. Was I think a black brindle. Atlas did show me his papers. Was a extra nice looking dog.
I have not had a talk with Matt lately. One of my questions was the same as yours about the Black Friday dog. Matt knows as much as anyone about the Lonzo dogs. Atlas had Friday,Vindicater,and Rosie on the yard back then
The Lonzo dogs pulled very similar to our dogs or the Eli dogs. Coming at you with a very hard mouth and all out brawl. I never saw a Lonzo dog that could not bite hard. I would like to add that if Lonzo conditioned they were always in top shape.
Vindicater was a red nose/reddish looking dog. When he and Bo went together. Vindicater bit Bo so hard in his shoulder the grape juice shot out across the show room like a person shooting water with a squirt water gun.
What amazed me further after that dog pull. Lester lifted up the lips of Vindicater. All he had left was nub teeth. They were worn down. Vindicater could mash and gum one harder than most dogs with a full mouth of teeth could.
Want to ask Matt about that rumor of Molly Bee being sired by Zebo. Was what Edwards told close to his death. Molly Bee had the same style as Zebo and Stepps Ruby. If my Face bitch or owned Rage in their prime and were Molly Bees pulling weight. I would go some where else to match them. When released Molly Bee was like a Male Lion tearing down it's prey to the ground. Some wanted to call her a cur. Bass&Edwards never dodge anyone. My thoughts on Molly Bee was best to let Molly Bee be. LOL
So if you had a good Lonzo dog it will be able to hold it's own if properly conditioned in all competition. Just some more old history,wives tales and entertainment.
The breeding of Molly Bee more than likely went to the ground with Mr. Edwards. There are a ton of people who 'know to an absolute certainty' how she was bred. It is a guessing game now as after she was stolen there were never enough dogs credited to her to keep that line going. Mr. Edwards once said there was a big show with Molly Bee and a bitch was picked for her. He said he walked away just prior to release, heard "release" and he started back to the pit. He heard the crack and it sounded like a .22 rifle. When he got to the pit they were bringing Molly Bee out and the other bitch had the top half of her muzzle broken. It was mere minutes.
I am not sure of the Zebo route myself. One of the rumors I always enjoyed was Hargroves Rufus being out of the stolen Molly Bee. He too finished dogs with no teeth left. He flat gummed the last two. The rumors are sometimes as enjoyable as the actual accounts. EWO
I'd just like to say this was/is a great discussion, very nice to read ... I don't know much about the line, but I do like reading about it :)
The only pure Jackson dog I ever laid eyes on was this dog: GR CH Junior.
CYJ, are some of your dogs way back there in his ped?
Jack
The ones we saw were rough and rugged and a very large percentage of the time just about freak mouthed. There a lot of W's in there and some L's here and there. A close friend of mine who was a close friend of Mr. Jackson, (and got dogs from Mr. Jackson) told me this. A lot of the L's posted would have been W's if they had been left down for a little longer. He felt Mr. Jackson was quick to pick up as he was a forward thinker. He was breeding or matching down the road even during that match. My friend says that is great, unless you are betting with him. Great posts on some solid history. History I have experience with which makes it all the more interesting. EWO
Ditto Jack. V. Jackson and myself were partners in the dogs. I kept a low profile due to a very good job and family to take care of. V.J. did the majority of the conditioning. I was with him at just about all his matches. Did all the corner man work. Any where you see Young in his pedigrees today. Those were my dogs are breedings.
As with all partners we had some ups and downs and different opinions on how to breed this or that or to much of this or that. Sometimes may not speak to each other for a month or more. LOL
But we always made up and have remained friends to this day. When I quit the game I turned all remaining dogs I had over to him. Except my Jake dog. I let a local dog man named Nelson who had some Red Boy bitches from Katie have him. Do not know if he got any pups as Jake was up in age by then. Been trying to locate Nelson to find out. He may be passed on by now.
We owned and shared some dogs between G.Cox/Spruill/Braddock/ S.McNiel. Later on in years I got the Face bitch from J. Chandler and the Pearl bitch from S.Shropshire. I was trying to breed up a Bully Son Art's Missy cross to my Carver-Creel dog Chuck. I did not know it at the time. But C. Middleton was doing something similar. He had got a bitch pup off the Boze (brother to Rage) dog bred to my Face bitch when Chandler had her.
I let V.J. breed his Tunney dog to my Young's Face and my Young's Monkey bitch. To build his line back up. He liked all of the pups. Many did not survive the Texas weather and some got stole. The two young Black dogs with white streak markings that Marty Hill had. Got stolen off his yard also.
Tar Heel Matt was just getting into the game in his young twenties. We all got to share some time together. Through Matt and Sonny got to meet and talk with Ozzie Stevenson. Ozzie sent some good dogs to Matt to help him breed up the bloodline he has today. Matt became a very good dog man/breeder and was honest about anything he bred or registered.
Scotty Mc'Neil sold the Carver Chuck dog to a Williams man in Charleston S.C. and I later bought Chuck from this dog man. This Jr Jackson bred dog you just mentioned looks a lot like my Ole Chuck dog. Geek Squad just lost a nice litter off his Jackson Stud dog Soldier. Was bred to a line bred Luther's Diamond Jim's bloodline. Only one male pup survived. That black and White Diamond Jim dog looked like a clone of my Chuck dog just different colors. I feel like I got to live in the golden era of the dog game. Was a thrill a minute.
Overtime putting on those Multi shows for gate money etc. Some of the dog men turned to dealing dope to pay their way. Was the beginning of the end. Should have stayed way under ground and out of site. IMHO.
Was rereading this topic. Ovahaul I tried to look at your pedigree you listed. The only dog I saw was Mr. Coplin's El Torro dog way back there. Saw none of my dogs or V. Jacksons dogs. Our dogs did not look short and stocky like those two dogs on the pictures.
We bred for a more deep chested not barrel chested dogs with long muscles and not short and muscled bound looking. I liked the longer heavier bull terrier type muzzle like is shown on T. Garner's Dolly bitch. I liked the Colby headed type dog if it had large teeth and a strong Terrier type body build for speed and wrestling. Dogs with to big of a bulldog head with a body not built to carry it. Is like a Boxer that has arms built up to big. Most boxers do not want arm's bigger than 16 inches. A 18 or 20 inch arm can get real heavy to hold up in the later rounds.
The ideal type built pit dog to me, was like the dog shown on the front cover of Pete Spark's My Friend & Mine Magazine. Since I did like the smaller dogs, most were more Terrier type built with those low swinging rat tails. Cheers
beautiful read great piece of history thanks for sharing!Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Great thread. This forum should have a best of section for threads like this.
CYJ is always offering interesting glimpses into our dogs' history, and there's a lot of threads with his particiapation.
Maybe we should have a "Best of CYJ" section :)
Thank you everyone for the complements. Trying to remember a lot of what happen 40 years ago without keeping current with the printed dog magazines. Can be a little hectic. I went to a lot of events when myself and V. J. were in our younger years. We would load up a group of local dog men in a big Van. Share the gas costs etc. and away we would go. Fellows like Spruill, Cox, Braddock, Middleton, Truett, and others. Everyone were good friends here and those we met abroad. Never saw bad sportsmanship like I hear of today. If one felt someone did them wrong, abided by the referee's decision. Sucked it up and moved on.
I got off to a bad start on the on line pedigree site. Was all excited and my mind was running in all directions. Thought many would like to know more detail about all the various dogs. Some of the shenanigans of the now famous dog men. Failing to realize that many younger dog men, like football fans had their preferred teams and dog men hero's. I realized to much information would be bad. Best just say something good or nothing at all.
If I did, was a pile on time with lots of nasty stuff spoken to you. LOL I mentioned in one topic, had stayed up to late and topic was badly written. Was fixing to go in and correct that morning. But the ole Fancier had me in a quote. Proceeded to take me out back behind the wood shed. I had made the mistake of implying that most UKC dogs of today were now probably just Staff show dog types. Example probably being the Red Devil line. Was thinking at the time of Mr. Wilder and not Iron line kennels. I was surprised they were still around. Mentioned that in the early 60's was a Palmer that was a Highway patrolman that showed and pulled some Staff dogs. Sure it was not the Palmer he knew very well.
I see where Ca Jack catches it anytime he is over on that site. Problem is he is way ahead of them in smarts, facts and writing abilities. That Boze guy putting down Mr. Hollingsworth thoughts on black dogs was in much error. I am afraid from my time in the dogs what his thoughts on the matter were. I found to be very correct.
The only reason Hollingsworth dogs are not in V.J. dogs today. Is I did not follow up on the suggestions from G. Cox and Mr. Edwards and visit him. After seeing the video of his original dog's on the You Tube. Like Ca Jack I too would have been over powered and blown away from seeing such excellent looking dogs. I know the right stuff when I see it. Like the parable of the candle kept under a Bush. The outcross I needed was right there under my nose but never got to see it. LOL I am sure Jack when you first saw these animals you felt you had seen the light, at least in the bulldog, world terms. LOL, Cheers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
Thanks for the props, good sir, and it's a real pleasure to have you onboard.
Not only are your articles and posts appreciated by all, but NO ONE has entered in more pedigrees here than you, nor put in more effort correcting bad pedigrees, and that includes me!
If we ever get an "MVP" award on here, you will definitely be the first recipient 8)
And if you ever decide to accept that Moderator assignment I offered you, it will be my pleasure to make that upgrade to your account :hatsoff:
Cheers,
Jack
Offtopic but another :hatsoff: from me. It's people like CYJ and a few others that separate this board from all others.
Thought i ask one simple question, ended up with 4 pages of text full of new(or should i say old??) insights to think about.
I commend you sir....this is one of the best threads I've read here or anywhere else.....keep'm coming cyj...
To the rest of Albino Rhino questions. I took time to do a lot of research and kept accurate registered papers on our dogs. Where I was in control of it you can be assured the breeding's are correct. I never understood the selfishness of falsifying or changing the papers on how dogs were bred. The papers are only a tool to help with future breeding's. For continuing a line of dogs for today and tomorrow. You are very right, in the pulling ring the papers are not much help at that point. LOL
From 40 years back the V. Jackson line is still intact today. Some of it straight and some of it crossed into other bloodlines. Three dog man have contacted me and still use it and have it straight and crossed. His Hank dog had a big impact on many bloodlines of today. So to each his own, everyone has some good ones and bad ones. No matter how they are bred or crossed. Just try to cull the bad ones and keep the good ones. To the best of your knowledge and ability.
Then along comes a turning over the apple cart guy, like R. Jones. Who took well bred cull dogs from J. Crenshaw. Few years later or so, starts kicking butt and taking names. Just no monopoly in the dog game, some just sell more dogs than others. LOL Cheers
yep for sureQuote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Good read. I've always enjoyed CYJ's posts.
Bravo Mr CYJ ...you truly are flawless in class , thank you for your insight !!
Ditto.
I have enjoyed a series of PM's with Mr. Young over the past several months. His insight and experiences are priceless. We met in person at Tom's picnic a few Saturday's ago. I enjoyed the conversation tremendously. We joked about people competing for his time. LOL. It was great conversation. It was one of those Saturday afternoon's where the shade tress provided little to no relief. It was smoking hot. But well worth the trip.
Sometimes I wonder if the game has changed or the times or the people. Most of the time I think it is all the same just a different set of people on a different set of dates. There are good and bad in every era. Mr. Young happens to be the good from his era and passing that true knowledge into this era makes him all the more valuable going forward. A passing of the torch or sorts.
When I see CYJ on post it is my first stop. Always a good read.
Agreed. A class act.
EWO
EWO I met Mr. Young many years ago and he left a very big impression on me then, just lately I have also talked to him about old times, our times at that time and I have found even more respect for him. As you said his insight and experiences are priceless. Yours in the Game JohnnyQuote:
Originally Posted by EWO
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=66530
Workin good for me