Does feeding a dog raw make them aggressive or increase the chances of it turning on you?
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Does feeding a dog raw make them aggressive or increase the chances of it turning on you?
Myth
Blake my brother, does eating a cool and nice ice cream makes you feeling hot and sweaty,or does it leave a burning taste in your mouth after wards...?
Some dogs are more protective over their raw food than they ever would if they ate kibble. I don't accept it one bit on my yard. But you should be aware that sometimes there is a difference.
Lol. I personally didnt believe it, but after hearing it so many times I had to adk.Quote:
Originally Posted by DOGNMAN
Thanks skipperQuote:
Originally Posted by skipper
It turns them into blood thirsty killers. Actually it is a myth, but a myth that sure has been kept going. EWO
There is actually some truth to it.
Take my Stormbringer dog, for example: I could feed him kibble and he would start eating it no problem. I wasn't feeding raw back then, but I did give him knucklebones ... and as soon as I gave that fucker a bone, I couldn't get near him for 2 hours. He would literally go after me like I was an enemy.
Even my Silverback dog was sketchy when I fed him a raw, whole animal. Again, I could feed The Gorilla kibble and I could eat out of the bowl with him. Didn't care. For that matter, I I could feed him raw chicken quarters, and he'd wag his tail at me as I watched. But if I gave Silverback a raw, whole RABBIT (or chicken or quail) ... he would always move away from me ... and if I pushed the issue and got close to him ... he would start to growl at me. The Gorilla never flat-out attacked me, like Stormbringer would if he had a bone, but Silverback damned sure would warn me not to fuck with him when he had a "kill."
So I have to say there *is* some truth to the fact raw flesh makes dogs more likely to bite, at least it does with super alpha-male type dogs. In fact, if people watch "The Best You Can Do" aspect of my DVD on raw, you can watch Silverback growl at me, when I get close to him while he's eating a raw quail.
That said, under normal circumstances, feeding chicken quarters etc. has never caused any dog to go after me, but I haven't really messed with my dogs when I feed them. But I absolutely I would NEVER let any little children go anywhere near a bulldog while they're eating raw meat.
Jack
Thanks Jack for the info. Really helpful.
Interesting. I have never experienced that with any of my dogs. I am not sure how I would take that. I have fed dry food, raw, as well as whole prey and never seen any aggressive behavior. Learn something every day. EWO
Glad I'm not the only one that has noticed this. Some of these arent to bad but some of them have gotten food aggressive over a big chunk of meat or bone. Fruits or vegetables dont seem to matter just meat.
My bulldog will fight over dry feed with other dogs. He could care less if I touched his dry feed. He will warn me and growl over meat. He keeps it heavily guarded.
It just depend on the dog. They have feelings too so anything is possible. Some could be food aggressive just like some inmates locked up in prison. Some don't give a sh*t if other dogs eat with them. I had one(first pit)who tried to kill me over some chicken blood that my sister left in the basement. I had another who would growl when I come near him eating his leg quarter. You better believe that was the last time he ever growled at me. Dogs that growl at you don't respect you enough. And those type of dogs has to change the way they are or they're out of here.
i think the myth is, raw makes dogs more aggressive overall. which is simply not true
protecting a piece of meat, who cares. let the dogs eat.
I could care less if the dog is trying to protect its meat from other dogs, but if they're growling at me, the hands that feed them, it's a different story. Chain spots are limited here. Curs, human aggressive pits, meat growlers, and anything not up to my expectations gotta go. I breed, raise, and show everyone of them so I can't allow them to have that gene and pass on to their offsprings.
I agree! A dog like the one jack describes would have to go on my yard. Thing is if I have one like that I can never leave the yard without having the fear of something happening when i'm away. I understand Stormbringer was a dog out of the ordinary, and if a dog is exceptional I might keep it as long as I can show him. Have done that in the past, but sooner or later he's got to go. No matter the quality. Now if i had a huge yard and always had somebody who i knew could handle a dog like that I wouldn't care.
i always teach my dogs to get out the way when i put down the food. whatever they do after that i dont even want to know.
i thought they only do that on discovery channel with the plastic hand.
Well, the dog was too good to get rid of, and the solution to the problem was easy: leave him alone when he's eating.Quote:
Originally Posted by skipper
Under all other circumstances, Stormy was a stable, affectionate dog.
If I had a dog that would attack/growl at me "in general," or who was unstable, sure I would kill a dog like that too.
But to kill a normally-stable, absolute ace-caliber pit dog over his basic instincts in protecting his bone, would be overly-emotional stupidity on my part ... when all I had to do is let him enjoy his bone and not fuck with him.
Because, when speaking of respect, you also have to respect your dogs (especially the badass ones with enormous ego and drive), and you need to leave them in peace when they're eating. That is also part of what it means to "understand dogs" :idea:
Jack
what some people seem to forget is dogs are still ANIMALS. They will always revert back to there basic animal instinct like protect a fresh kill and so on. No matter how many boot blessings you give a hound for growling or whatever form of discipline action you take. At the end of the day a dog is still a ANIMAL with basic things like protect my kill and a bunch of other things are HARD WIRED in to them. To think that you can remove that from your dog not only shows stupidity but a lack of basic understanding and connection with your hound. JMO
That is exactly right.Quote:
Originally Posted by scary
Some people need to "get over themselves," and let their dog be a dog.
Jack
It's easy to say all that when you don't have kids around. Getting rid of a dog like that in the first place is to prevent future mishaps. One of the main reason GreenEyes is out of here was because he snatched a piece of meat from one of the kids and at the same time got a piece of her shirt. Now that you mentioned the Gorilla growling at you, GreenEyes does the same thing. He growls exactly like his mom. You could also make a case and say why didn't I put him somewhere else while there was a BBQ in the back? If I put him in a crate inside, he'll destroy it like those other 7 crates he went through, put him in a kennel inside? He will only bark until he comes back out on his chain spot. So it's a lose lose situation. That dog has no respect for anybody.
At scary: you're right, some are like that(GreenEyes) and some are smart enough to know what their owners expect of them. That's the reason why I get rid of the ones I can't control and keep the ones that meet my expectations. Some people are so stupid that they think all dogs will revert back to their animal instinct, when all they have to do is teach them with a piece of treat.
I would not have a dog like that around kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by OGDOGG
As I already mentioned on this post (and mentioned on my Feeding Raw DVD), I would never feed meat to a dog with kids around.
It is my firm belief that behind every "dog bite" incident to a child is the irresponsible dog management of an adult.
The Gorilla never growled at me, under any circumstance, except when I tried to take a raw animal from him.Quote:
Originally Posted by OGDOGG
Brick House never growled at me one time in her life. She only growled at strangers, and even then only a select few strangers.
Brick House is in fact with a woman now, and is living a nice life, and (again) never growled at either this woman, her boyfriend,, or (now) her mother. Brick House is an extremely smart animal, with a big ego yet a loving heart. If she loved you, she would defend you fiercely. If she didn't trust you, she would let you know. She was one of those dogs who knew who her friends are (and aren't), so if she continued to growl at you, I would imagine it was only because she didn't like the treatment or vibe she was receiving from you.
I would indeed make the case that I wouldn't keep a dog like that around kids. However, if he was also a crate-eater, then that makes confining him problematic. In that case, I would either keep him in an above-ground pen, or (if I didn't have the space for one), then I would have done the same thing you did and gotten rid of him to someone else. Some gamedogs are not meant for children, or being domesticated; they are meant to be out in the country and used for one thing only. But those are not my favorite kinds of dog either.Quote:
Originally Posted by OGDOGG
Just because you "can't control" a dog doesn't make that dog "stupid"; oftentimes, especially with bulldogs, it can mean the dog simply is not tractable. There is a big difference between tractability and intelligence, which you clearly don't understand, so I will try to explain it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OGDOGG
To illustrate the difference I am talking about, collies are typically known to be "tractable" while coondogs typically are not. Collies have to obey hand signals and be very responsive to their owner's directions, and consequently they need to rely on man to do their best jobs. Coon dogs, on the other hand, have to "think on their own" and get out there and find something, with little or no help from man, but have to rely on their instincts.
Because of the differing selection standards used to create these different breed types, many people mistakenly believe that collies are "smart" because they're so obedient (tractable), and that coondogs are "stupid" because they tend not to be obedient and make poor pets. This myth (and the distinction between "tractability" and intelligence) was shattered when researchers put several collies, and several coondogs, through a series of mazes and trouble-shooting tests ... and almost all the collies failed to get out of their mazes and navigate the tests ... relying only on their own instincts/judgment ... while virtually every coondog navigated the challenges with ease.
What does this mean? It means collies needed help while coondogs could think for themselves.
So which breed tends to be more intelligent? Depends on if you want a dog to "follow instructions" or think for itself.
Back to bulldogs. Not every bulldog is tractable. Many have exceptional drive, and huge egos, and dogs like this are going to do what they damned well please, and there is just nothing "you" can do about it. In fact, this utter stubbornness is often associated with some of the best dogs I myself have ever owned.
Do these dogs make good pets? No.
Does this make them "stupid"? No. It means they're not tractable (obedient). Many dogs like this have all the intelligence they need to get out of crates, windows, cages, etc., and then go do what they damned well please. In fact oftentimes these dogs prove smarter than their owners :lol: ... but I do agree that such dogs are NOT enjoyable dogs to have around in a family setting, and I wouldn't want one for that capacity either.
But out in a wide-open country setting, dogs like that will amuse themselves all day running around and working their chain.
Jack
Machobear is a complete asshole.. if you put him in a crate, he'll bark until you Let him out, if he's outside, he'll bark until you work him, he is absolutely never aggressive to anyone in my house, however, he does give too much attention to a stroller, I'm not sure he knows the differnce., that being said, he will always be either outside in a 10 x 10 kennel, or in a wire cage in the garage.
Brick house growled at me once..and that was when I picked her up from you. Other than that she continued to growl at children and my friends that came over. I've never treated her bad not once. She was the only dog I was worried enough to take to the vet several times. That proved a lot as much as I hate going there. After I brought her back to you, several days later, you thanked me for taking good care of her.
As for the collie/coondog subject, thanks for explaining the difference between tractability and intelligence. But all I am asking for is the dogs to know-stay, come, and be quiet. That's all! If he's not smart enough to do that then I say he is not intelligent enough to learn those commands, or he don't give a shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I get what you mean. And I have had dogs like that myself. Probably not to the quality of Stormbringer. But good dogs that ego you are talking about. What differs my situation from yours is that i have very limited space. And i have relatives that takes care of the dogs when im away. I live by myself and i need someone to feed the dogs when im on trips. Had a male dog that would kill you if you didn't stepped away the second you would put that bowl of raw down to him. I bred him, brought him up and I knew it in my heart this was the pick of the litter. He had it all, great mouth, super strong, agile, with extreme finish. I loved that dog. when he became like a year that feeding shit started, i didn't care much about it, him being my precious one and all. When he turned 2 those food aggression started to become house aggression kennel aggression and so on. I gave him hell and it was good for a couple of weeks, then it all came back. By this time he started to become unstable around my girlfriend not only when fed. In the end I had to put him down because my family wasn't safe. And I could never leave the yard because of that dog. Now I' not comparing him to your dog since he was stable all other times. Thing is that this dog had terrified people I care for and by now they wont feed any dogs that growls because they are afraid they will get attacked. I can tell when i know its only food aggression, they can't. And this is why I will only feed dogs that are 100% stable at all times. For the peace and mind of my family and the ones that makes it possible for me to have this hobbby. I shoulld've wrote all this in my previous statement ofcourse.
At the end of the day it comes down to the individual situation of the hound and owner. As far as saying you could teach dogs to not revert back to ALL there basic instinct would be incorrect. Because at some point they ALL will revert back to at least one basic animal instinct. Rather it be the fight or flight instinct or the instinct or when you have a bitch on the yard that's in heat all the stud can think to do is do what is hard wired in him witch is to breed the bitch. But what I am getting at is at some point rather it be from the stress of the situation or witch causes the fight or flight or if its the situation with a dog just being a dog and try's to make his way over to breed the bitch. Just to name a few. He is still reverting back to his basic animal instinct when making those decisions. So to say that you can teach a dog to stop reverting back to his animals instincts would be stupid. Maybe you could say that you could teach him to not revert back to ONE basic instinct. But not all of them.With the raw food issue. There are the select few out of the general population of dogs that can be taught not to growl or not knot up with the bitch unless the command is giving. Some instincts are easier to brake then others. But they are far and few between when dealing with dog of this performance. But it all comes down to is that individual dog in question WORTH keeping around and do you have the proper setting to keep it.
This is a pretty good topic. I personally have never seen any of these food possessiveness characteristics in any of my dogs. I have fed dry and raw and whole prey over the years and have never seen the difference with aggression or the desire to possess or the growling or biting. Even the high strung, high caliber dogs that were full of themselves. I have always touched and rubbed the dogs while they ate as pups and young dogs. Maybe this was a bit overkill on my part and it may or may not have factored in to me not seeing this type of aggression. I have been lucky over the years to only have one incident where one tried to lay mouth on me. I ignored the first sign. (my fault). The next sign I schooled him with a feed scoop. The next day he met me at the end of the chain with ill intent to say the least. I fed him a vitamin and he has never even acted like he wanted to bite anyone again. Good topic. EWO
All your dogs know and obey those commands? How many you feed? The only command mine know is "shut up" and that's because I'm shaking the ol red Ryder BB gun! LolQuote:
Originally Posted by OGDOGG
Yes they know those 3 commands. The first command I use on them is "stay". What they'll do is stay in their house until I clean up their area. Once it's all clean I tell them to "come". Now they could be all excited all they want. I have a small yard and all the dogs on my yard are either bred by me or I got them since they were very young. So they know what I expect of them.
Guys a High protien ore protien based diet THUSE make a dog agressif!!. its a known fact, in the greyhound racing world!!. there is one thing they can NOT use in that scene and that is greyhounds fighting umongst them(hensh they race with muzles on and they carry pitbull blood in them), insted of going afther the lure!!. as soon as greyhounds start fighting there careers can come to a end.. another side afect from a high protien diet is protien posion witch also reveals itself in hair los and bold sports . the so called food alergies (witch they are not) it mearly a lack of amino acids in a to high protien diet.... now the hair los and bold spots are more comon umongst dry food kibble, and lesser in raw feeding as raw meat thuse cary more amino acids to it , BUT there is a BUT to that as wel..
limey are you saying more protiene in a diet, makes a dog more aggressive???
Protein poison, as you call it, should only manifest itself in a dog that is already having renal dysfunction. Normal functioning kidneys, with a proper intake of water, can filter and excrete all the excess protein the dog doesn't need without any ill effects.
I've never seen a bulldog that has been a high amount of protein be anymore aggressive than it already is. I can't say the same for greyhounds as I've never seen them.
yeah i was about to say that makes about as much sense as the gun powder theory! lol
Actualy sins a greyhound bij nature has LESS agression it is detected more ez and reveals and shows it selfs muchs ezer then in apbt. who bij nature ARE more agreesif. and those racing greyhounds defenatly are having renal dysfunction as you call it when they race more freakwend..Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
they are even chekt monitord mutch more for drug use kidney/liver funktion urea/ crea hemocrit ecetera then the apbt due to its legalety.. problem with them is that they are not CONDITIONED for races. its actualy the races during the season that is there conditioning .
They pick up more speed during the season. the kidney and liver stress is ezer to see as in a apbt. as our dogs are toughfer But that thussend mean our dogs dont sufer from it. we al know that when our dogs DO show they are sick that they ofthen are in imidiat japorty .
we have had a couple who defenetly cooled douwn in the agresif departmend when we cut the protien intake.. And anybody who is feeding raw protien based diet to its pups can vouch for the agressifness in them pups!!!they are ofthen wild kats!!.... as it is a dog with lots of hybrid viger can COPE more having a high protien diet, and yes lots of water intake helps get rid of plenty waist out of the kidnyes and liver.
BUT the purer bred dog WILL suffer from it when getting older where the pressure on those kidneys and damege has been done at a younger age.
chek some of your frinds who when younger partyd like crazy and longer see them 20 years later and they look like old man!!and they live shorter its the same with apbt they loose years of there life span . a body can recopperate for a sirtin amound of time,.. Now 90% of the working apbt is on short chains and kenneld up most of its life. feeding them a high protien diet WIL have lots of presur to prosses that protien...
A kidney and liver kinda work like a sponge, and we all know that when a sponge is dirty and you put it under the tap and squeeze it a couple of times then the dirts and waist comes out!!. NOW if one of the dogs has been hunting his Kidney funktion stops. its filled up with waist iven tho a dog is pissing ofthen the water is as clear as tap water!!. its only then when a kidney starts working again that he wil pisis the yellow waist out of its system .
Many a dog that was ok and was fed protien AFTHER a show has died 1. 2 sometimes 3 weeks later, due to the kidneys and liver not being able to prosses the protien waist out of its system. Hensh older ore veteran dogs afther there careers as stud dogs need to be fed food for older dogs wich contains less protien and more carbs!. Keeping a such a stud dog very lean upto a point where the novice thinks it looks a bit creul, makes him live longer and produce longer.
Now comming back at the protien diets. iven when a dog is able to waist out the ecsesif protien. This still means that his kidneys and liver(sponge) are constandly filled to the max and ore are working mutch harder then a dog who are on a lower protien based diet... High protien should only be givven when working ore in a keep and to upgrowing pups. never when in the off season , ore living in his chain space doing F all .. here is a greyhound food link http://www.redmills.ie/ie/greyhound/...ing-nutrition/ chek nr:9 at the bottom. The so called food alergys are BS its a protien poison due to lack of amino acids / water/ and to high protien in dry feeds for a dog to be able to prosses it. so in 8 out of 10 cases its mearly feeding the wrong high protien kibble , doing nothing on the chain, in combination with a lack of amino acids . also chek feeding guid at this pace where you see a mixsture of two feeds to carbo load the stayers who are on a high protien fat diet. http://www.redmills.ie/ie/greyhound/...=538&parent=76
Interesting
Orijen, towt and dog lovers gold are considered a few of the best kibble brands out there, yet they all contain a high % of protein. More then a regular raw meal consists off. Would that make them a bad choice as maintenance food? I've been feeding these brand to some of my dogs. Never felt any dog showed more aggression. I wouldn't mind either but their health is important to me.
R2L Many people make mistakes in there chooice of dogfood. Orijen comes from Canada!! the highst level contains 40% protien i belive. in canada like in the usa 80 to 90% of dogs in rural country side lives outside . we all know how ""long"" and ""cold"" the canadian winters are. those dogs there need mutch more nutrition then dogs in warmer/ hotter climats. and sins its made and based for Canada thats where the main market is the fact that they do wel overseas and everywhere els is a welcome side efect that fills there pockets. sure its made out of great ingriedienses. but do you need it when your in california ore Texas!!?? i say HELL NO.Quote:
Originally Posted by R2L
And lets not forget dogfood is a bisenis and like the raw feeders and there websites they live on selling there products as wel. the people beliving in it make freee PR and promote the crap out of it... Doglovers gold has been tought up(they claim) in the netherlands in europe afther years and years of ecsperience!!(sales pitch) actualy bij a long time old time dogman P goumare aka P Parker (peters ch willy burger/ parkes ch boots). its being sold in te usa under license . however its produced in the UK bij the biggest dogfood producer in europe , where you can choose your food out of many many reddy for everybody to use resipies bij that company for you to private lable it !!!!. so it aint that special and as far as i know doglovers gold only resendly produces a kibble with higer protien levels..
Anyway actif dogs on the chain ore light working dogs should be on no more then 27% protien and around 17% fat. slower dogs between 20/25% protien.. hard working dogs in a keep 32%/20% fat max and lets be clear on someting .
those dog food brands are PET foods
Greyhound feeds are ""profesional dog kibble"" made to make money on performance!. in a 500.000.000 usd industrie divided over Australia/new zeeland/England/Irland and the usa . where individual dogs can race for upto 80.000/100.000 usd prize money. These companies dont cell crap, there balansed foods contains nearly everyting to protect bones muscles joints under sevear stress and give fast long energy dilivery to those massif amound of muscles they cary.
At the same time they RE invest in that scene with prize money ecetera...thing is you can sell BS only for so long!!..
Like the whole grain carb myth..It was is just another made up belive story umongst pet food brands . trying to compeat with one another and to make money. They alredy knew a long time ago that dogs with lesser hybrid vigger specialy the purer bred breeds have a problem with the lesser amounds of amino acids in the dog foods they cell ( and the barf/ raw meat diet groop took advantige of that as wel.you know 2 dogs fight over a bone and the tird dog takes it home)
so they start producing grain free ore hyper alergic ECSPENSIF feeds, wich are trown at you as a custumore while a simple additation of the right combination of amino acids takes care of those problems..
Amino acids who are more availeble in raw fress meat!! solves that problem but not the vast amounds of antibiotics and hormon levels in it wich thuse show you a fals image of a dog that looks great and is wel...
another side efect from that is that you never ever can balanse that type of diet out to get the max out of your dogs not to mention the costs and time consuming it is...
The closes the greyound dogs come to compeat with raw and ore fresh meat is when it is mixst in with there low protien kibble specialized for that perpose..wich blows away another myth that you cant mix raw with kibble...
The right thing THESE dogfood companys do is tell you to actualy MIX there dog food with hot water in order to get the same densety as raw meat !!there pallets used are very tiny and blow up to 5 times there dry size afther a 30 min soak!!!.
you wil quikly see and realize when you feed around the same ""weight Soakt"" as raw meat that the problems are solved and that you are actualy twice as cheap as feeding raw!!! ,without massif amounds of water intake, and less strain on the kidneys..and mutch lesser problems with the so called food alergies!!.. .. and defenatly small amounds of STOOL..
my son has this company he has plenty of raw and drij kibble custumors who BOTH at times have problems with both diets http://www.greenriverworkingdogsupplies.nl/ build up with my help and ecsepertize umongst others. some parts are in english chek FAQ and the dog food page (voeding) . and defenatly chek ""Performer RPM Health tonic"" ore just sirf around...Im sure there is info you can use.. anyway agression melds douwn as snow infrond of the sun!! it has as you know nothing to do with caracter ore gameness for that matter.. we could do without those 360mph crazy ass dogs that only hurt themselfs on the chain ore in there kennel. not to mention the amound of energy they spend for nothing.. at the same time your trowing money away bij feeding high protien food as it is waisted...
I prefear the laid back dogs..
The origin food is indeed too hard on kidneys. My dogs would drink half of their waterbucket daily. I switched to nature's variety instinct duck (lowest protein) and the water consumption was back to normal.Quote:
Originally Posted by R2L
Does heating the meat(kibbles) eliminate the hormones in them?Quote:
Amino acids who are more availeble in raw fress meat!! solves that problem but not the vast amounds of antibiotics and hormon levels in it wich thuse show you a fals image of a dog that looks great and is wel...
This rises another question, if a dog would drink more on a high protein food, why doesn't it drink at all when its being fed high protein raw? Of course there is allot of water in raw food, but not even half of what a dog would drink on kibbles. Are protein more easily processed if merged with water, like Limey Kennel wrote "soak the kibbles in warm water" ?Quote:
The origin food is indeed too hard on kidneys. My dogs would drink half of their waterbucket daily. I switched to nature's variety instinct duck (lowest protein) and the water consumption was back to normal.
I've always soaked liable just to prevent choking.. my dogs are so greedy when it comes to eating that they choke, and Yes... meat .has 70% water
I have got one 44 lbs dog who eats 400 gr of raw a day a doesn't drink a drip of water. When that same dog is on kibbles he drinks 1 liter. Thats what i meant.
Now if there is one thing i learned is that you can better drink allot of water then too little since it will cause water retention.
Another thing, I recently switched all my dogs to dog lovers gold for economical reasons. One of the positive sides about it is all my dogs are properly hydrated now. 2 of them had a 2-3+ sec skin count when they were on raw and they just would not drink. I was working one in a keep at one point i was just walking 30 minutes and treadmill 25 minutes, he ate 750 gr of raw + 700 ML water and it still did not hydrate the dog. Because they drink all at once and dont drink any more after that, most of it just comes out just as quick.