Anybody knows her pitweight and on chain? just wondering.
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Anybody knows her pitweight and on chain? just wondering.
37-37.8 lbs conditioned
Thanks a lot, I had no idea and she does look muscular for a bitch.
I would imagine her being around 40 lbs on the chain. She was on swim keeps, so that's the reason why she looked so muscular. I had a dog who loved to swim and he was so muscular it's ridiculous. Sometimes we go fishing and he would stay in the water for 6 hours. He was so strong he would put his opponents down right away.
I think to be great, a dog has to have that rock solid build to it. That way it's harder for them to get hurt.
I had one who didn't like to work but he naturally had tough skin. He was white and had a good bite. By the :15-:20 mark he would be covered in blood. Then at the end of the show I'd wash him up and he had nothing but scratches on him.
Tornado winning 10 and consider to be an Ace, she had to have a solid build to her.
She was a strong bitch not many marks on her
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheDogs
Can we see 100's ped
Thanks for the post Rumblefish.From what I have heard I would assume 100 is no longer with us.But the Tornado blood in 100 is the exact same stuff coming through CH Gunner.
well drycreek the schoolteacher who owned ship says he has the blood and its tight bred w/tramp outs so guess it is around
The bitch was way more than 37lbs if we are talking about Dble Grch Tornado. She was upwards 42-44 bitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by OGDOGG
I'd like to speak with the man .ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by abc
Then why would her owners ducking QOH? If she was that weight and could've made 38, she definitely be the bigger dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyRed
tornado never ducked anyone look at her comp she went into the best competitors of her time j and k allen were friends and thats all no ducking took place
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGDOGG
That is preposterous.
To say, "If a dog was 42+, then it could make 38," is freakin ridiculous.
Taking a bitch down 4lb in weight like that is how foolish people lose good dogs. The real truth is, if The Queen was 38 she could come up to 42.
What world middleweight boxing Champion goes down in weight to fight welter?
What world heavyweight boxing Champ goes down in weight to fight cruiser or light heavy?
Answer = no one. The truth is, in real professional fighting, if there's a weight disparity among competitors, then the littler fighter has to come UP in weight, it's as simple as that.
Ken Allen had 10x the number of huge deals, involving multi-winner to multi-winner, as JA ever thought about having. Ken (literally) had 500 dogs, and he wasn't "emotionally attached" to any of them. He had all the money he could want, and he matched anyone anywhere. To say that he "ducked" the 38 lb QOH with the 42-44 lb 10xW Tornado is utterly laughable to anyone with a brain. This is not a slam on The Queen or her owner at all. She was a great dog in capable hands. The "slam" is on the preposterous notion that KA "ducked" a 4-lb smaller dog, when he and his camp have repeatedly gone into some of the best dogs in history at even weight.
The truth is, the dogs were too far apart in weight. And the other truth is Tornado's name is the one who holds THE highest mark in bitch history ... not The Queen's.
At the end of the day, only the people from The Queen's camp think about Tornado ... the remaining people from Tornado's camp (whom I know personally) don't think about The Queen at all :lol:
AND they've matched into as good, and in many cases better dogs than The Queen, over and over again, for longer than you've been alive :idea:
Jack
Not sure if they matched into better thant he Queen she was truly a specimen of a dog. Yet she was a 38-40 dog and wasn't no slouch. Remember talking to Mr Layne a long time ago about some of the better dogs and neither of Tornado or Queen were unbeatable in his mind but every dog has it's day. 2 great dogs at 2 totally different weight classes, a friend of mine lost to Queen of Hearts and she was one beast of a bitch. I dont believe in matching different sexes but if i would then it would have to be a bitch like Queen of Hearts. She was great and so was Tornado. Me personally I believe the most underrated bitch of that era was Lady Stone and folks may not know but her manager died young before he got fully started. He was able to manage Lady Stone and did stop 2 Champions from ever getting to meet Tornado. At that weight, she was probably the best dog for your buck to stand a chance against Tornado. I know Queen of Hearts got moved up in weight and her handlers Abraham Brothers were at quite a few dances. Not sure why people always compare the two, and why people think Tornado ducked queen when they were at 2 different weight classes. Yes I've heard about the offer, yes I know about the offer. There were quite a few guys there when the offer was made but it wasn't really an offer. It was, i think I have the best bitch to walk the earth and so do you. If you want that bitch killed lets hook them. Ken A was a gambler and had plenty money and so did the Abraham Brother's, but it wasn't a call out as some make it appear to be.
At even weight, sure, absolutely, most people would agree it would be a "pickem" fight ... but with a 4 lb weight disadvantage against a phenom like Tornado, The Queen would have no chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyRed
As for the "equal or better dogs" this camp has been into: Gr Ch Adapt, Gr Ch Outlaw, Gr Ch Sampson 5xBIS, DBL Gr Ch Melonhead 14xW, Gr Ch Migraine, etc., etc.
So to think they would be happily going into dogs of this caliber at even weight (and either beating these dogs or taking them all the way) ... but that they're suddenly scared and going to be "ducking" a 4-lb smaller bitch with arguably the greatest bitch who ever lived ... is just silly.
Jack
Cali Jack, I agree I'm saying that they weren't scared. I respect both camps as they did what they were suppose to do. I know neither were scared of each other, it ain't them that is stating all of these stories and sayings. We can fantasize all we want about who would win but we shouldnt knock the dogs for what people who are not part of their camps state. Both great dogs, not taking away from either of them.
Point well made.
I would never knock a bitch like The Queen. I was knocking the laughable idea that Ken Allen and The A-Team would 'duck' a 4-lb smaller bitch when he had the greatest bitch of all time ... and repeatedly went into the finest competition out there.
It would be just as laughable to say JA "ducked" the 5-lb smaller Gr Ch BB Red. BB too is an all-time great, and maybe she could win at even weight, but no way could she spot The Queen 5 lb of weight and have a snowball's chance of living, let alone winning. But if they were the same size she would.
That is essentially my point re: the 38 lb Queen of Hearts and the 42 lb Tornado.
It is always funny to me that the two camps had these two dogs ( and it could be any two in the same time frame) were doing doing dogs at the highest level. It didn't happen because the two parties involved understood the difference in weight. 20 plus years later there is always someone out there who never laid hands or eyes on either dog, but knows one camped ducked the other. Or more often, how a dog is 'really' bred. EWO
Yes I agree with you two guys. JA was a smart man, very humble but not shy man. He was no fool and would never give you 2lbs let alone 5lbs. Same as Ken A wouldn't be foolish and take Tornado down 5lbs. Some talk about what others doing and then those who are doing.
I definitely agree that we shouldn't lose sight of what these bitches and their camps accomplished. That being said Ace himself said he asked Kenny directly to put it together. Ken said he'd think about it and then came back and declined to make the match. That's not an opinion of someone outside the camps and that's not speculation. Why the match was declined we may never know, that is speculation. But the opportunity was definitely presented.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyRed
Quote:
Originally Posted by drz
Agreed. How great both of these bitches were should never be discounted.
And, again, even if this were 100% true, that Ace made "the offer," what does this mean exactly? Where are the details? By that I mean, saying "He asked Kenny to put this together" is not a very definitive statement as to the the vital elements of what constitute a match (i.e., at what weight?). If someone "offers to match" a 45 lb dog into a 50 lb dog, at the 45 lb weight limit, is the guy with the 50 lb dog "scared" to go into the 45, or is he just not going to do something stupid when he says, "No."?
So suppose Ace wanted Ken to come down, then of course Ken is going to say no. For that matter, suppose Ace wanted to "meet in the middle," it is still to The Queen's advantage to be 2.5 lb heavy, with Tornado coming in at 2.5 lb light ;) So, again, "No" would be the sensible response from the owner of the bigger dog. Therefore, since we don't know the details, these kinds of "whispered rumors" ultimately mean nothing.
And finally, even if we want to stretch our imagination to the extreme ... and even if it were videotaped that Ace offered to come up ALL the weight, and a full 5 lb in class, to meet Tornado at Tornado's best weight (:lol:) ... and even if Ken were caught on tape saying, "No, I don't want to do that," it still has NOTHING to do with anything. Ken's fearful opinion would still be his OPINION, and could still be wrong, because IN FACT his 5-lb bigger Double-Grand Champion bitch would in all probability still win :lol:
So in no way, shape, or form do these supposed "conversations" have anything to do with a concrete outcome ...
In the end, any knowledgeable dogman would be 100x more willing to bring his killer dog up 2.5 lb into a dog that was 2.5 lb light ... than he would to bringing his killer dog down 2.5 lb, into a great dog with 2.5 lb more size on it, especially after 9 matches under his bitch's belt. Like humans, the older a dog gets, the BIGGER its pit weight gets, not the smaller.
Thus, after the dust cloud of opinion clears, any "offer to match" means nothing as to which was the better dog. In the end, the facts that remain are both dogs were all-time great bitches, and any opinions as to "who would have won" will NEVER become a definitive fact; they will always be mere opinions.
Jack
Well I havent spoken to Edward or his brother in quite some years, he went by Rifelman. I actually remember when this all came about, it was when "Ace" called out a few Ch's but nobody would accept. I dont think Kenny thought much of it, said he would think about it and it just never came about. He had a 10xw it was nothing to think about besides seeing what he could get off that bitch. After her last ordeal of going 3 hours, I think the answer was clear, she had done so much more then any dog should be asked it wasnt a point. Ricky who was a good guy before he ratted, thought the world of Queen, said he thought she was unbeatable after she dismantled Ch Lou. A bitch that many "thought" was one of the best in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Far as the details, it wasnt about weight or money (them boys and camps had enough money to hold several different 200 dog yards with ease) it was just about respect that his dog was well over a GrCh. Without doubt all of us in the region respected Queen and several other dogs that the Brothers showed back then. Shit I remember that puppy he showed into a Ch, the pup was 12 or 13 months old at the time and beat a damn good Ch. We all thought he was crazy as hell for even thinking about testing a puppy let alone showing him into a Ch. But pup had got into a yard accident and did some damage and he said he would never show a puppy again win or lose but wanted to prove a point. Well that pup did more then prove a point. Edward or "Ace" had a damn good eye for a bulldog he just knew one and he knew how to shape a good dog. The weight was going to be Tornado's weight 42-43and while it was an offer it wasn't a demand. The news of the offer swept through the region and folks were lining up to buy tickets as if it was going to be Ohio State v Michigan game. Probably would of filled some of that stadium if allowed.
We will never know and we can only speculate, I can admit this, if you ever seen Edward bring a dog, or seen Queen go then you know he knows a bulldog and weight isnt the end all be all in a super fight. Zebo pushed 4lbs into another bad ass Ch and won. Queen wasn't just a killer she was something special, if possible there are a few with some video of her see if yall can get around to seeing it. Good big man typically beats Good little man. That's a show that didnt happen because it just wasn't supposed to. Rather I wish that Ricky would have brought out Shady Lady for Queen and that if Ladystone owner didnt pass early he could of been up to bringing her into Tornado, if I'm not mistaken she stopped 2 Ch's from their supposed dance to meet Tornado.
In the end it's something that doesnt need to be discussed it just didnt happen, just as Action Jackson didnt meet Sunny Boy, Just as Jeep didnt meet Angus, Homer didnt meet Chinaman and Junkyard didnt meet Tombstone, Milou didnt meet Zebo and Zebo didnt meet Jeremiah. We can wish and speculate but that's all it is. Those dogs deserve the upmost respect either way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyRed
Great post overall.
Wanted to make a couple of comments here:
1) Zebo pushing weight into Greaser wasn't the same, as Zebo was a killer while Greaser was just slick. No one would push 4-lb of weight into a mutual killer ... which Tornado was, seeing as she killed 9 dogs dogs out of 10 ... 3 of which without Tornado getting touched in return ... and the only bitch that lived to her jumped the wall (Tant's Black Cat). Many all-time great dogmen consider Tornado the baddest bitch who ever lived, including Ricky Jones, Fat Bill, the Old Man I know who's matched into more dogs than most can possibly imagine, including the likes of Dbl Gr Ch Melonhead, Hargroves Gr Outlaw, Gr Ch Sampson, etc.
2, these were beyond "good" big men versus "good" little men ... these were 1 smaller, great 8xW bitch going into the greatest, most accomplished bitch in the history of the sport in Tornado ... who was 5 lb bigger than The Queen.
So, I agree, it wasn't supposed to happen.
Jack
Great post fellas. Though I do believe that Tar Heel or some other authority recently pointed out that Greaser wasn't just slick. He was a killer as well. Don't quote me but I believe he had sent two home in sausage casings as testament to his mouth. Greaser was thought to be badder than Zebo or anything else around not just slick. He was said to chop them up without getting touched. He also did a lot of damage to Zebo in their encounter proving Zebo's gameness to many as Zebo suffered a lot of abuse before he could get to his spot.
Some words right out of Ace's mouth on the subject of Queen vs Tornado.
"My Queen of Hearts bitch was just a real killer! Many who saw her said she was a real ace. Lately many have wrote me and asked me if I tried to take her into Dbl Gr. Ch. Tornado, and I will say yes it is true. I asked Ken about putting it together and he said he would think about it, and later he said "No". There are many people who know this to be true, even Ricky Jones(At one point credited as co-owner of Tornado along with the A-Team) told Ken he felt that Queen would kill Tornado. Rebel had a first hand look at Queen when she killed his Ch. Lou bitch. I never really tried to push the match because Ken and I were good friends. I never felt the need to disrespect Tornado publicly because she was a hell of a bulldog owned by a good man. You can't take anything away from a dog that has won 10 matches, but I felt Queen was a better dog. Remember it's only my opinion and opinions are not facts. But what is a fact is I tried to make it happen. Queen was a bitch with 8 wins without any of her opponents scratching back for more. Both Queen and Tornado will be part of bulldog history until the end of time. I can't think any less of Ken, he was a man who showed his bitch 10 times, when most dogmen have to be forced or have their hand held to show a dog one single time."~ J. Abrahams
I like how Ace says "Opinions are not facts". As his been pointed out the outcome is only speculation as our Ken's reasons for turning it down.
For those who don't know a lot about Queen of Hearts she had one of the absolute best resumes in the sport if not they very best. Not only did she go into top flight kennels she also went into the extremely accomplished bitches. Every single time she went out from the first to the last she stopped a very good one from picking up a title. They were all going for a championship or a grand championship. No first time out dogs. No greenhorn dogmen.
Blondie 2xw(same bitch twice)
Mule Dog 2xw
Rebel's Ch. Lou 4xw had doa's opponents in under 7 minutes. Queen killed her in under 35 looking fresh after the show. this show was at I think at 39lbs.
Ch. Pepper 4xw destoryer who Roadblock called the hardest biting gyp he'd ever seen. Pepper had no takers after #4 until Queen picked up the weight. Queen planted that one in under 30.
Lady 2xw said to be a specialist on the head.
4xW Ch. Lady Beast
and finally 2xw J.Allen's Miss Redboy. Who was said to be super slick and super game. She was picked up to save her in under 30 as well. The Rebel has said to have put that one together to try to get revenge on Queen for killing his Lou bitch.
So while Tornado was the most winning bitch in history. Saying she was the greatest or most accomplished is still a matter of opinion.
As an aside one of the things that lead me to the old Vise Grip kennels page back on geocites was my tracking of a breedings down from Queen that lead to this bitch. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=542
Ken Allen's*Double Grand Champion "Tornado"*
On December 8th, 1991, GR CH Tornado made bulldog history. She became the first ten time winner and DOUBLE grand champion in history.
With all great bulldogs there are people that detract from the achievements of these animals. Who Dbl GR CH Tornado could have beat or couldn’t is a matter of one’s own opinion. Who she did beat and who she didn’t is a matter of record. The facts are that the list of notable dog people she beat is among the top the game has to offer today.
Her first match was into STP’s Miss Piggy. STP was quoted saying, by a close source, that if he could get the bet covered, he would mortgage his house that Ken’s 13 month old pup could not possibly beat Miss Piggy. Luckily for this proud fellow, the bet was not called as Miss Piggy was victim number one.
The pattern continued as Dbl GR CH Tornado beat D. Farve & JJ Hayward, Bobby Hall, Tant & Co., and Chicago Combine.
A while later, GR CH Tornado came to Florida to claim her sixth win. She beat “Emma” in 1 hour, 17 mins. Tito of the Local Boys was next in line and his bitch did not last the half hour mark and T. Garner and Raheem’s bitch went out game in half that time. Rastaman brought opponent number nine in the form of Boone’s Sadie, she was wisely picked up at 45 mins. Her tenth and final match was against the Canadian Francois Shobinoe, a man that brought a very game and talented bitch. It officially went 2hours, 34 mins. A wager was made on Tornado’s gameness and ability to finish a dog. At 3 hours and 18 mins in 25 degree weather, she was broken off her expired foe and then scratched back to it without hesitation. (most dogs will not do this)
All of the above dogs failed to live under Dbl GR CH Tornado except for one. All of them scratched dead game. She won her first at 13 months, and her last at the age of seven years old. Tornado’s total fight time was 10 hours, 20 mins. She killed three of the dogs without getting one puncture in her skin. Her 8th and 9th matches were only 3 weeks apart from each other.
Many people say that Tornado did not produce. But what people don’t say is that she was only bred twice and many only took those and bred them back to her father whom was a ROM. Though, she did produce two known 2x’s including Ken Allen’s Movin On.
I was on the wrong side of an encounter with this one in school a few years ago. Only 25% Tornado breeding but had a lot of her ability to control the conversation if you know what I'm saying.
Just wanted to reiterate the idea that the 37-38 lb Queen of Hearts would do anything but get snuffed by the 42-43 lb 10xW, Double-Grand-Champion Tornado is truly laughable :lol:
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/examples/QUEEN1.jpg versus http://www.thepitbullbible.com/examples/tornado.jpg :lol: :lol:
Jack
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Not that Tornado wouldn't have won but Queen of Hearts wasn't going to lay down to get snuffed. Would without doubt be the best dog each other would have faced by far.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I agree if they were even weight ... it would be an epic battle.
However, at their actual weight, The Queen would get freakin snuffed.
No way do you spot a bitch like Tornado 4 lb of weight ... that killed 9/10 dogs ... and had 3 kills without getting a hole in her.
No way in hell. You couldn't spot that bitch a gram of weight ... I don't care how good you are at 37-38.
You go against a bitch that good, who's that much bigger than you, you're getting freakin snuffed.
Jack