Anyone know any good Heinzl blood and what it may be known for. I'm being offered some, but don't know much about it to be honest.
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Anyone know any good Heinzl blood and what it may be known for. I'm being offered some, but don't know much about it to be honest.
Hate hard keepers like that. Had a few over the years that i consider real hard keepers. All they do is cost you money and headache. Will never feed one like that again.
Life is too short to put up with that kind of crap. Plenty of good dogs that act right to justify keeping a ding dong dog.
Thanks for the reply.
Run! We fooled with that stuff. You literally have to run through 50 of them to get one or two decent game dogs. The consistency is gone.
We had half interest in this guy. He was a real good one, but he didn't produce well.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=23306
Thanks fellows. It is a supposed "proven" dog that a guy wants to send me to "try out". It's one of those deals where I'm confident I'm feeding as good or better.....so why try? Then, I hear this kind of stuff and it a no.
Thanks
I would have to agree with TFX. I fooled with some of those dogs back in the 90s and early 2000s. We had some straight Heinzl dogs and some crosses with that stuff. I NEVER had even ONE dog make the grade from any of that, and that came from 20+ dogs over the years.
The only way to know for sure is to see for yourself and give the dog an honest chance; the rest is speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel
That said, I agree that your odds are low, but that still doesn't mean the dog in question can't be good.
Jack
I agree 100% Jack. I'll be leaving this one alone.
When it came to the Heinzl line. I found they would not cross with just any line of dogs. The best line to cross this line with was the Tudor's Red Bill/Howard-Tobe /Rose blood line. Any of the heavy Kephart/ Maloney line/ Mayfield line. Needed that Williams Red nose Lightner to fire it back up. But only breed from a well built game Heinzl bitch. Start there with just 1/4 cross. In the Sixtys and 70's about a 1/4 cross was used.
Orbie Coplin's Heinzl dogs was the older line of Heinzl dogs. He checked the oil on his,do not know what Heinzl did with his last stock.
I wanted to bred my Young's Tina and Jackson's Pokey to A. Brewer's Vindicator and Zebo. Was some good Williams-Conklin- Hemphill Red nose Lightner dogs in those pedigrees.
Anyone today that might have a good bitch off V.Jackson's yard. A good choice of studs would be that McGee's Apostle dog. Any out there that has a line going stale This Apostle is a good line to breed to.
Mr. Coplin told me that most of the heavy inbred Hemphill or Lightners Red nose dogs he observed. Would show gameness but most could not fight themselves out of a wet paper dog bag. Yet when bred back into a blood line that was going stale. Many times will bring back the bite and increase the gameness in that line. This was his opinion, some of my later Coplin inbreeding produced some game dumb dogs or cold dogs.
Mr. Coplin sent me a 15 month old Red/Red Nose Male off his line to breed back into my line. This Geronimo Dog had 1/4 or more old Hemphill breeding in it. Geronimo looked like a ole Family Red Nose dog. Only got to breed Geronimo to three of our Coplin bitches. Dogs showed gameness and mouth with very good air.
By the time you get some of this figured out. Six to Eight years have passed and the best producers may have gotten to old to breed or have died. Was a never ending process.
One of tbe best bellyflop roll to get there chin scratching deadgame bitches i ever saw was off of penas striker. I dont remember the bottom, it was either a conley gyp, or voyles, but id give me left nut to have her as a bitch to cross into now. Maybe it was off the aralee bitch. For sure striker was the sire. Anyway, having seen this gyp. Id take a gamble. As a matter of fact. Give me tbe pedigree, ill use her for a cross.
We have some hit or miss encounters with the blood. We had a 50/50 Colby/Heinzl cross. Sire was from JB Click and dam was from Louis Colby. They were very unstable mentally. Very standoff-ish, didn't like people. We gave them the minimum, looked and they were currs. Now, I know those boys in Oklahoma crossed the Heinzl blood to Redboy/Jocko/Eli stuff and had fantastic results! I have this gyp around, she's a fiery little pup.. Deaf though.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=13560
what dogs was your 50/50 cross off?Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheDogs
How old are these dogs and how are they bred? One thing you do not want is a man shy or weird acting Heinzl dog, pass on those. Heinzl's older strain up to the Gringo dogs that I knew of were good calm dogs. How they panned out I do not know.
They should be well built with deep chest capacity. The percentage on that strain is low today. Your choice of a cross might be to a good Bolio strain with some Anderson Tonka in there. That Apostle dog of Matt's may be a good cross. Even Gambler's Virgil with Ozzie Steven's Virgil strain might nick. If any of these fellows still have any dogs.
The Heinzl line is a hard line to nick with other blood lines. In the 70's and 80's you only saw about a 1/4 to a 1/8 used. Heinzl like Jack mentioned on another topic may have gone soft in his later years and not culled seriously enough. Beginning of the end of a strain is when the paper breeding begins and no culling is done.
I do not know this to be the absolute facts about Mr. Heinzl in his older age. Just seems to appear that way. No one blood line lasts forever. Things are constantly changing.
I blew it with my Heinzl - Coplin dogs by not listening to Mr. Coplin. He did not want me to keep inbreeding them. The best cross I made with them was the Red Bill - Corvino breeding off the Mayfield's Snake dog. Some of the Mayfield Sunshine cross was good but not like the Mayfield Snake cross. Mayfield did not let us do any line breeding back to Snake or Sunshine.
Could only do half brother/Sister breedings. Which I did not like as much. It is what it is sometimes. Do the best you can and hope for the best when culling time begins.
So if anyone of these Heinzl dogs turns out real good for you. Start looking for a good out cross. Good luck.
Saw a good one off the Stryker dog with a touch of voyles little john
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheDogs
Are the Ch designations in your dog's pedigree conformation? (That's how they're entered.)
CH = Champion athlete, while Ch = Champion conformation, which I assume you know, but was just wanting to be sure.
Thanks,
Didnt know that.....
Evo, I saw a lot of dogs bred around Stryker and the Little John blood, and most of them weren't any good either sadly. When Fiarris originally went to AZ and got those Heinzl dogs, I think he originally came back with 10. Stryker was the only dog worth owning. He was a match quality dog, but a spooky dog also. Jim bred him to a lot of Little John dogs he owned, and even then, it was very hard to get a dog worth owning from that particular type of breeding. All the Heinzl type dogs I had originated from Stryker or dogs bred similarly to the cross you saw, and none of them were any good. Before Jim died, he told me that getting Stryker and doing that particular cross turned out to be one of the few mistakes he thought he'd made in his time breeding dogs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
Well, they saved the good one for me cause the one that ch. Xena beat crawled and belly flopped to take hold. A true dead game dog
I don't doubt there was the odd dog here and there that could do what was needed, but that was the bad thing. It was the odd dog here and there. When the breeder of those dogs called his plan a mistake, that confirms what I'd already thought.
The flopping while crossing came from the Little John side of things. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CYJ
From what I've heard Heinzl was a guy who kept to himself just as the gents who still maintain the blood are today. There are good and bad from every line.
Ditto BrickFace. I was familiar with the Heinzl line and He was very private for sure. V. Jackson and self had two Orbie Coplin bred bitches that were of heavy Heinzl bred dogs. Close up off Colby's Dime and Colby's Rifle blended with Dibo and Arizona Pete etc. If anyone has ever had a line of Heinzl dogs for any length of time. You could tell most of the time what they are by their looks, build type and type markings. One noted thing about Heinzl dogs was good breathing ability and ours had those nice rat tails that swung low.
I had a bitch off V. Jackson's Hank and my Tina bitch called CH Jackson's Coal Cat that was a clone look a like of Heinzl's Polly bitch. Orbie Coplin's Molly was a sibling sister to Heinzl's Polly. The Jackson's Hank dog had a lot of Heinzl breeding from Mayfield and Langham's Lightning I and II dogs along with Stockton's Liz bitch.
Mayfield in a article way back stated that the Eli Bush's Eli dog that Boudreaux later owned was off his Little Cotton dog bred to Evelyn Staurt's Cry Baby bitch. The Mayfield's Little Cotton dog carried a lot of Heinzl breeding. When C . Middleton started in breeding line breeding his dogs. Started getting white and white spotted up dogs instead of the usual black dogs or black and white dogs. Told him it may that good Heinzl/Feeley blood coming to the top. LOL
Eli Bush had some of the same bred Coplin-Heinzl dogs we had. Eli Bush also had some good Corvino bred dogs as well. Mr. Heinzl was very good friends with Orbie Coplin and Joe Beal from Greensborough N.C. Two other dog men that used the Heinzl and Coplin dogs was John Fonseca and Lewis.
Mr. Joe Beal went out West and spent some time with Mr. Heinzl and bred some of his Bitches to Heinzl's Bummy and Gringo. I got to read his letters and looked at all the pictures Joe had back then of his Trip. Was one of the high lights of his life to meet Mr. Heinzl in person. Good to Great dogs back then and today will more than likely have some Heinzl breeding somewhere in the pedigree line up.
ADBA did a great write up on Howard Heinzl and Mr. Coplin. Those who have all those older ADBA books have a lot of good history info. About a year ago talked with one of the secretaries that worked for the UKC Blood lines registry. Said at that time they still had copies of the 1940's and 1950's etc. blood lines magazines. Lots of good info there written by the likes of Heinzl, Tudor, Saddler,Corvino, Colby etc. Cheers
Sounds like you have some history with the line.
My heinzl is crosses with alligator blood i love it
Would you mind sharing a ped, would love to see it. This ones had caught my eye:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolltidepride
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=54143
Search stanlee dibo tigerQuote:
Originally Posted by Milehighmisfit
Thanks for sharing:) It seems several people are enjoying the Alligator/Heinzl cross. I believe Race Horse has been bred to some Heinzl stock as well. It seems like maybe 1/4 to 1/8 Heinzl blood is the sweet spot? What is gained in the first place by adding in the Heinzl blood? Is hybrid vigor achieved?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolltidepride
Stanlee Dibo Tiger
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...gs_profile.php
C-Towns Elsa
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=49006
Crums Shine
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=54143
If you read the writings of some of the older dog men of the 60's. You will find that many felt the Colby dogs improved the Dibo line of dogs. Not the other way around. Mr. Heinzl had good success with blending these two families of dogs.
It appears either or not, with so many dog men jumping from this blood line to that blood line. The Colby/Heinzl/Hemphill/Am Staff/ dogs had lost most of their popularity by the mid 70's. By the mid to late 70's the Carver dogs were the latest rage. Even the old timer Mr. Egan Skinner told me at a visit in his home. That Maurice Carver would be the next famous Pit Dog breeder probably surpassing Colby and Tudor.
I had mentioned earlier, I found it hard to cross the Heinzl line with just any other blood lines of dogs. I felt what that line needed more so than anything was a fresh infusion of Colby blood. Do not know if anyone gave it a try. By the time Indian Sonny had wrote his article on his opinion of the Colby dogs. Very few dog men probably even owned a good line of Colby dogs.
By the mid 70's any really good old line staff blood was no longer around and most Colby dogs were being sold in name only. Three main breeders at that time was still Colby's Sons/Mr. J.R.Loposay and Mr. Pete Sparks. I remember a dog peddler in Hartsville S.C. that had a whole kennel of Colby dogs bought from Loposay over the years. None were worth a ride by to even look at.
Where V. Jackson moved back to many years ago. One of Colby's great grandsons lived not far from V.J. I did not know this till about a year back. I asked V.J. why he did not try at least one breeding off this Colby man's best stud dog? Might have been worth a try. V.J. said the dogs were to big looking for his liking. I laughed,told V.J. his Johnnie dog was no midget. LOL When I added the Bullyson into those dogs. A lot of them were large to catch weight dogs. I myself still preferred the smaller bull terrier looking dogs.
If one was to use any of the Heinzl bloodline today. The best rule of thumb that has been used in the past is around a 1/4 cross coming from a good well built game Heinzl bitch dog. A example would be J. Johnson's Rage bitch. IMHO, just some rambling thoughts on the matter. The good ones are where you find them and then only a handful of dog men can properly put one up for the show and go. Overtime I saw more good to great dogs lose to inferior dogs no matter the bloodline due to improper conditioning. Which I too was not very good at it. LOL Cheers
Good post. The last couple of lines are topics within themselves.
JE told us once the key to Molly Bee was the line of Heinzl/Colby 1/4 or so from her top side. Asked why it wasn't more sought after in order to mimic/re-create Molly Bee and he said the same, "It is just hard to find the dogs that are those dogs". Meaning they were out there by name but just not the same dogs.
She was a little before my time but this is a story told my JE. Basically there was a camp down south that had the one to beat Molly Bee. It was set up and they made the trip. It was a big crowd and JE was away from the box. He was making his way to the box, heard release your dogs, and stopped briefly to speak to an old friend. Heard what sounded like a .22 rifle pop and the crowd went silent. He got to the pit, the bitch has went into Molly Bee's mouth and for her decision she got the her muzzle broken in half. Half way between her nose and the eyes. Snapped it half in two. He laughed and said it was the first time he was at a match and did not see a match. In so many words.
Good insight CYJ. Good post.
EWO
I have thus male would somebody plz put him in the database thx
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=54948
I have a male from rolltides' heinzl alligator cross and he is a virtual clone of the dog posted above. at least in appearance.
DoneQuote:
Originally Posted by GRIPPLOCK100
Appreciated BrickFace
Yep, you can add pics, modify, notes or whatever. It's in your peds listQuote:
Originally Posted by GRIPPLOCK100