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Jack,
Could you tell me a little about the strenghts and weaknesses in dogs down from Ouch? Ouch has obviously produced some fantasic animals in Silverback and CH Vengence(one of my personal favorites) and littermates. I was just hoping you could elaborate a little more on traits and styles these dogs tend to possess
the red run i know of was from gangbusters
Well I spent a buncha time writing something ... and it didn't go through ... and when I backspaced it was all gone ... :angry: :crying: :twisted: :lol:
I am done for now. My connection is slow, and I don't have it in me to write all that over again tonight, so I will try again tomorrow :mrgreen:
So stay tuned ...
LOL... :lol: The same exact thing happened to me the other day when I was posting in the Uey thread. I had typed out a whole mess about a couple of my dogs, made a wrong move, and it was all gone. I'll hit you up with the details in private.
I would like to know also.
Okay, here goes:
Avila's Ouch! was a really, really good dog :D
Ouch's sire, Mexican Pete's (aka: Foot's) Rueger was a very good face dog, as told to me by Lineman (who was the referee to his second deal);
Ouch's dam, Foot's Raina (aka: Mexican Pete's 410) was a good face dog in school, but was stopped by Tin Can Kennels in a match. I know really good dogmen who think Raina was "off" that night; and I know really good dogmen who say she was just a cur.
Ouch himself was a relentless backend dog ... so (to understand his genetic influence) it is important to learn how he could have been such a relentless backend dog, when both his parents were head dogs?
Well, sit down and pull-up a chair :D
First of all, other than his mama quitting, another knock on Ouch would be the fact the litter he himself came out of was a bit of a "mixed batch" too. Ouch's sister Golda was cold, and his brother Coolio was a light-boned, skinny dog who was either cold also (or was a low-ability game dog, I can't remember which), but Coolio did throw some very game dogs ... but the trouble is they tended to be light-boned and not very durable.
However, the good news is Ouch himself was by far the best dog in his litter ... he was a structurally OUTSTANDING, rough, tough, game-ass customer ... and remember breeding dogs is all about selection. As a performer himself, Ouch was simply an all-around good, rough, tough, deeply-game, smart, adaptable dog. He could break your ass down if you were weaker than he was, he would go as long as you wanted to go if you were as good as he was, and he could stay on the head and control you if you were more powerful than he was. Ouch could do it all! He wasn't "great" at anything, but he was damned good at EVERYTHING.
When I first got Ouch, I saw him rolled personally by his owners, and I also looked at him again myself 3 different times, and I was very pleased with his absolutely-consistent level of performance. He was simply a damned good dog! What I wasn't so pleased about in Ouch was the "genetic bad news" on his mother, as relayed above, nor was I thrilled with the El Dos Bits in his pedigree. As most people know, I am a fanatic for "high percentage litters," because they are absolutely critical for long-term breeding success, and while the average fan of Bolio dogs might jerk-off to the "heavy Bolio" in any pedigree they see, I don't like Dos Bits blood because it is generally low-percentage garbage. According to TVK, his friend Chris W. (who had Dos Bits) said that Dos Bits quit. Worse, Lineman revealed to me directly that Dos Bits' mama Daisy also quit (which Patrick confirmed to me directly), and if that wasn't bad enough Dos Bits' mama's mama Wyatt's Sable quit (which is pretty much common knowledge), so El Dos Bits carries too many "skeletons" in his closet for my tastes. Therefore, as someone who has devoted his entire breeding efforts towards dogs from high percentage litters, I have always hated to see Dos Bits in any pedigree, because to me it is low-percentage crap in general (compared to other Bolio dogs like Rolo, the Hollingwsorth dogs, Little Tater dogs, etc., which I tend to favor. Therefore, with a questionable mother in Raina, and with El Dos Bits behind both Rueger and Raina, there were some aspects of Ouch that I didn't like at all!
However, despite the bad news on Dos Bits, the simple fact is some dogs HAVE come down from him which are damned good animals. The Homer ROM line of dogs is perhaps the best example of a consistently-game line down from El Dos Bits, in spite of the skeletons in his closet, but I would bet a lot of $$$ that this consistent-gameness in the Homer dogs has alot to do with the game Clouse blood in his mama Cricket.
Anyway, the most important fact about Ouch is that he himself was a really good dog! ... and so this is where GENETIC MANAGEMENT comes in, and the art of bringing out THE BEST from a gene pool rather than the worst 8-)
At this point, we need to lift up the ENTIRE genetic "hood" of Ouch and examine ALL of the facts of his pedigree in order to tap into his strengths while avoiding his weaknesses. Naturally, to Ouch's genetic credit, aside from being a game, damned good dog himself, his sire and Rueger and Rana were both sired by double-barrel DG Mason's Ch Hammer, who came out of an ALL-GAME LITTER. Ch Hammer's brother Jesse (2xW) lost his Championship bid in 2:00 and died crawling in the box (it doesn't get gamer than that!), and Ch Hammer himself won his 3rd deal in ~ 2 hours, coming from way behind to beat Lewis' Chainsaw ... and Hammer had to spend 2 weeks at the vet afterwards to live through it. So there is exceptionally-game blood in Ouch too! Moreover, naturally Ch Hammer was likewise the sire of my Poncho and Missy, whose mutual dam (Hollingsworth's Miss Trinx) was a game bitch out of another all-game litter, not to mention Trinx was the only bitch ever born that was truly ¾-bred on Hollingsworth's foundation bitch Lady In Red. So I knew I had the right blood to bring out the very best in Ouch, which is what my main plan with him was, which was to breed him to Missy, tripling-up on the DG Ch Hammer through two superior individuals ;)
This breeding, of course, produced Silverback:
Now then, back to Ouch's pedigree: Further, even though Ouch's mama Raina might have been weak herself, and even though the mutual mama to both Rueger and Raina [Godzuki (aka: Mexican Pete's 410)] might have been off of the weak-link El Dos Bits as well ... the good news is Godzuki was a badass bitch herself who won a big match down in Mexico. The important news here is that Godzuki was one of the outstanding Dos Bits dogs herself, and to understand why this is (and to where Ouch got his high-pressure style, not to mention his color) it becomes even more important to dig under the "genetic hood" a little deeper here, in order to understand why Ouch was such an athletic dog (and why he passed this "finish" trait onto Silverback, even more so). To do this, I believe it is critical to examine Godzuki.
Godzuki herself was a huge (for her weight), chocolate/rednose bitch that had finish ... and she got this because rather than pulling genetically from the cur/buckskin Dos Bits, Godzuki pulled genetically down from her bottom half, which is Needham's Strega. Strega was likewise a devastating, chocolate/rednose bitch who was a Maloney/Bolio/Oakie cross This means, while dependable gameness and durability came from the Macho side of Strega's pedigree, the unbelievable ability came from the Ted Jessop bitch Pitfall. It is my firm belief that this "genetic wildcard" in finish/athleticism behind Ouch/Silverback is a direct genetic link down to the Pitfall bitch ... who was sired by Gr Ch Red Sambo (which is also where the chocolate/black color is coming from, and which ability/color likewise has passed on to virtually every single generation right into Silverback). It only "skipped" in Raina.
In examining these dogs even closer, not only was Gr Ch Red Sambo a true ace off of Bolio, but he was bred to a direct daughter of Greenwood's Oakie to get the Strega bitch (remember Oakie was the sire to Ozzie's Ch Homer ROM, not to mention he was a half-brother to Gr Ch Zebo ROM). So believe me there is loads of extreme ability here!
My beliefs in this regard are further confirmed by Northern Express, who has Ch Red Bull and Ch Shiver, because he has personally owned multiple Ted Jessop dogs, all down from Pitfall, and he said almost all of them are seal-colored, they were athletic as all hell, and they were all finishers!. You see, genetics are a funny thing! In any litter of dogs, some dogs will get their genetic "pull" from one side of the pedigree, while their littermates may get their genetic "pull" from another side of their pedigree, but they all look the same "on paper." This is where INDIVIDUAL SELECTION comes in!
With all this said, based on my careful study and observation of the BEST dogs down from both Ouch and Silverback, it is my firm belief that Ouch got his incredible body, athleticism, and relentless pressure style (not to mention his chocolate coloration) from a direct genetic link to Needham's Strega/Jessop's Pitfall, and that this is why Silverback has such a tremendous backend (unlike virtually all other Hammer dogs), and which is also why he has such a relentless desire to finish ... which I haven't seen since CocaCola/Stormbringer/Bandana. And, interestingly, there was likewise similar incredible results when I bred Ouch to the double-Mason's Bolio Jr. bitch Bandana ... which naturally produced the incredible (again Chocolate) Ch Vengence:
So there you have it, the complete story on Ouch, his strengths and his weaknesses, as well as how/why I have capitalized on his strengths.
Hope yall enjoyed it :mrgreen:
Jack
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Thanks Jack. Great information.
WOW!! Great post Jack. Thanks for the indepth look at your reasoning behind part of your breeding program.
Vdk
Phenomenal post and one for the History file! Excellent post Jack!
A very insightful article looking into the dogs that make ouch up... (which I don't think a lot of people realize is a must to achieve the high percentages)
Thanks for the exceptional read jack!
Great info on a fine dog that really shows the background and how important it is.
Thank you taking the time to write it.
Great read Jack! Your memory of historical events is like no other :) I have some more pictures of Ch Vengeance that I took this same day that I took of the picture you posted. it was right before his first win. I have never shown them online but I'll see if I can dig them up and post them here for your forum members. Thanks Kilo
P.S. After many many failed attempts of trying to capture his intensity :) I got Ch Vengeance to pose for this picture by waiving a basketball at him, this was the money shot lol
Yep, I got that picture from you ... wish I had the original, raw file though 8-)
Jack,
Thank you for taking the time to make such an excellent and detailed response. That was more than I was expecting.
I had 2 bitches off Ouch's last breeding. One past away 3 years ago and was a very good all around dog no mouth though. They were both Chocolate and worth feeding. Here is their pedigree:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=363637
My buddy bought Ouch from Hawaiian Punch Kennels and he lived until he was 10 I think.
Very nice breeding!
Nice to know some more of that blood is alive :mrgreen:
Thanks!
that was awesome Jack n educational as well
This was some of the best worded full info. Ive read in along time. Thanks jack
Thank you guys for reading, and I am glad you enjoyed it :D
One of the main holders of the Sambo/Greenwood dogs says they threw a very high percentage of brilliant performance animals and very consistently at that. He laments that more wasn't done to preserve the line. He was interested in the Ouch dogs as well. I sent him your way months ago. Not sure he got a hold of you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drz
Very interesting. If you PM me the name, I can let you know.
Those dogs must have gone up to Canada, because that is where I got my info on them from also.
Jack
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Months after our first conversation he got a hold of me again. He mentioned that he had reconnected with an old friend who he hadn't had contact with in some time, Northern Express. It will be interesting to see if they can continue the magic of that old blood. NE should be able to fill you in. The same individual also sent some gyps to the Lineman, those gyps or their decedents not sure which, ended up being bred to Bolio Jr. If I'm not mistaken. Very knowledgeable older timer who worked that blood first hand..
But again I'm just adding to your quality post on the Ouch dog and hoping to provide some further agreement that there were many talented dogs in Ouch's pedigree and that yes indeed Strega was a big part of the recipe of success even though she's overlooked due to the more impressive pedigree of El Dos Bits Cortaro. Which is a shame. Pedigrees are nearly meaningless without knowledge of the dogs that make them up. I know there are programs that allow one to add comments on each dog in the ped which would be helpful in cases like this.
I have updated the links on Page 1 of this thread, so that what I have said makes more sense ...
Are dogs off ouch or silverback still out there? I have a female i would like to breed towards this side of her pedigree as she matures.
True wisdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by drz
ouch
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=153
ch hammer
Hope yall are in the discussion mood. I really wish evo or ca jack would comment. My second litter of pups I feel is better than the first. One of the pups a female is a standout to me. She was always more athletic and independent compared to the other pups. the older she gets her structure is coming out. I know the dog isn't in her pedigree but when she matures she will be a spitting image of that ouch dog. Shes a balance of muscle and coordination and speed. My question is the best way to lock it in. Her father has a good bit of bone on him. One of her brothers has alot of muscle to him probably too much. I know we don't breed necessarily for confirmation. If you look at mma fighters and boxers certain muscle to height ratios show up in fighters. I think that ouch dog and hanna one day will have it. There is a fair amount of hollingsworth bull in the mix. I lean towards the dont break side of things. I look at ouch's pedigree and i bet some of his structure came from boomerang. If ca jack has ridden off into the sun set like shane and I can't find any ouch dogs. are there any good boomerang dogs worth anything out here. Theres a big discussion on here about Indian sunny's bolio dogs. They said how eli added some bone. I feel the boomerang may be an equivalent. These dogs work in places i like. Trying to figure how to lock in hanna and her dad if she turns out like i think she will. athletic, muscular dog that's not slow, smart and works were vise grip dogs worked. I hope yall are out there.