What the Hell happened?

Our bitch went into labor last night which kinda took us by surprise because she had not started producing milk yet but her temp had dropped and she was having small contractions. My girlfriend sat with her for hours but of course as soon as she steps out on the porch for a minute the bitch has her first pup. She then ate and regurgitated it. That was the first pup we had ever lost so needless to say it didnt sit well. We waited for the next pup but nothing came. First thing this morning she was rushed to the vet for a c-section but the outcome was not good. Only 3 out of the remaining 5 pups survived. The Vet could give no explanation as to why she didnt produce milk or continue having the pups natually. All of them were lined up in the correct position and everything. She has had one other litter with no complications at all. It was especially hard to loose half the litter because the stud is Silverback and we all know how old he is. If anyone has had something like this happen before an explanation would be appreciated.

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Originally Posted by QCK23

Our bitch went into labor last night which kinda took us by surprise because she had not started producing milk yet but her temp had dropped and she was having small contractions. My girlfriend sat with her for hours but of course as soon as she steps out on the porch for a minute the bitch has her first pup. She then ate and regurgitated it. That was the first pup we had ever lost so needless to say it didnt sit well. We waited for the next pup but nothing came. First thing this morning she was rushed to the vet for a c-section but the outcome was not good. Only 3 out of the remaining 5 pups survived. The Vet could give no explanation as to why she didnt produce milk or continue having the pups natually. All of them were lined up in the correct position and everything. She has had one other litter with no complications at all. It was especially hard to loose half the litter because the stud is Silverback and we all know how old he is. If anyone has had something like this happen before an explanation would be appreciated.

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Wow, that is disappointing :(

It sounds like she did not produce enough oxytocin naturally--and might not have had enough calcium in her diet either. Hopefully, the vet gave her a shot of calcium and oxytocin to stimulate the production of milk.

As to why she didn't produce any milk, did you change her diet at all since the first time?

Jack

PS: Don't feel bad about losing the pups, as there is no one in the universe (who breeds dogs for any length of time at all) who doesn't eventually run into tragedy a time or two (three or four). That is just part of experience and dealing with volume. For example, my first two litters were 8, 10, 12 pups ... that all went fine ... but eventually I have lost litters too, still doing everything right. The simple truth is, the more litters you deal with, you're eventually going to run into "the law of probability" that something will eventually go wrong. That is just part of life ... and, of course, I can assure you (also based on experience) that these things tend to go wrong with *the* most important litters you're counting on. Sad but true :(

PS: As a matter of fact, because she ate the first pup could very well be a sign of some kind of nutritional deficiency.

We were feeding her EVO during her last pregnancy, this time we had her on raw according to your book. I even began giving her a calcium supplement the last week of her pregnancy and added raspberry leaves for the last tri-mester. So disappointing.

Well, all of my bitches have whelped their pups fine and produced plenty of milk on my diet, and I sure have gone through a bunch of litters.

Honestly, adding extra calcium is not part of anything I do or recommend, and it is entirely possible to over-do calcium. In other words, giving too much calcium is not good. If she was getting chicken bones/egg shells, etc., there really was no reason to add extra calcium.

Although it may seem like a good idea, adding extra calcium alone (especially as an oral supplement) can cause absorption problems, ultimately throwing off other essential minerals, which will mess-up a bitch completely. There is an ideal calcium:phosphorus ratio that I discuss in my book, and so unbalancing this with too much of anything can be bad. Ironically, adding too much calcium to the diet can even result in eclampsia (not enough calcium in the blood--despite giving it as a supplement--because of minimizing absorption) ... which is a breeder's nightmare.

You might want to ask your vet about that, or read-up on over-supplementing with calcium. When vets use calcium to assist in a delivery, it is by injection, not oral.

I am truly sorry you lost some of your valuable Silverback pups :(

Jack

We didn't actually give any calcium supplements before she whelped, we had it on hand for after she started producing milk, but regardless, these things do happen. Not usually to me, and certainly not to the tune of HALF the litter, but as Jack said, they always happen with the litters you're most excited about.

On the positive side, Momma is doing very well and we have three puppies alive and putting up a good effort. They're latching and nursing well on their own now, and I've got high hopes for all of them pulling through despite their rough start.

Y'all keep your fingers crossed for me.

That is good to hear, and my fingers are duly crossed, believe that :)

Jack

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Originally Posted by QCKLime

Y'all keep your fingers crossed for me.

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Sorry to hear about the pups that were lost. I have my fingers crossed for ya. Hope the surviving pups make it.

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Originally Posted by QCKLime

but as Jack said, they always happen with the litters you're most excited about.

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Truer words were never spoken. Think about all the accidental litters and mutts out there being bred, giving birth to pups that no one wants. Then when you breed to a great dog, fate steps in and squashes your plans. I have done 5 breedings with my male and have 3 pups to show for it. Believe me, I feel your pain. Like Jack said, it is part of life. Sometimes things happen you have no control over. Just be glad for the surviving ones and move on with your next plan.

Great post Scratchin' Dog ... and OUCH! on the numbers. In keeping with this, my favorite saying (in dogs) is pretty much "Pick up the pieces and keep rollin'" ...

Jack

PS: And then there was the 14 straight "Key Breedings" I did with Stormbringer ... the baddest dog I ever owned in 23 years ... so as to build an entire bloodline around him ...

The result?

I only got 2 litters and a total of 10 pups ... most of which I sold before I realized he was quickly becoming sterile :(

Jack

Update- We lost the runt today which was a surprise because he started out the most active. We are now down to one male and one female. We have decided to start bottle feeding every hour because Mina tends to lay on top of the pups and likes to continuously carry them around the crate and re-position them. Not a good idea for weak pups fighting for their life.

Damn, dude, I am sorry to hear that :(

Wouldn't bottle-feed every hour though ... bloat is always a risk ... instead I would tube feed every 3-4 hours, per the article in the database here.

Less chance of bloat.

Sorry to hear that bro. Yeah it hurts when all you best made plans go in the other direction. With all of our well resourced facts and opinions. There is nothing we can do about the circle of life.

Damn, that really sucks! I am sorry you lost those pups, that was a very nice breeding and it sounds like you did everything right too.

How are the last 2 pups doing now?

We lost the little girl at ten days old. Our boy will be three weeks old tomorrow, and is fat and healthy, getting stronger everyday. I hate that he's all we have out of a litter of what would have been six puppies, but I'm oh so glad that he fought like hell to stay here. He was the weakest puppy we brought home from the hospital, I think I steeled myself to lose him in the first 48 hours, but he just kept struggling on. Losing the other two, they were both surprises. Him being the only one to beat the odds is surprising. I'm so so sad that I'll never have another chance to breed to his father, but I'm glad that we got to meet the old man before he passed, and that we'll at least have one of his sons here with us.

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Originally Posted by QCK23

Update- We lost the runt today which was a surprise because he started out the most active. We are now down to one male and one female. We have decided to start bottle feeding every hour because Mina tends to lay on top of the pups and likes to continuously carry them around the crate and re-position them. Not a good idea for weak pups fighting for their life.

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Did you whelp your pups in a crate? I would try a whelping box next time with the side guards to prevent the pups from being smothered.

I am really sorry you lost most of those pups as that was a fine breeding. But at least the one little fellow is doing well. I'd enjoy seeing a photo of him if you'd post one up sometime. Best of luck with him!

I also was thinking how sad to lose this litter which was planned and wanted, when so many unwanted litters end up being 8 or 10 pups with no future ahead. Life seems awfully unfair at times doesn't it...