Coccidiosis-Giardia

I'd love to have Jack get in on this one.

I've got a dandy litter of 6 pups. One just left to her new home Saturday. I've got one little female that my vet (damn good vet btw) said has a giardia looking protozoa in her. Not a problem. Hitting her with the Albon and I expect her to be just fine. I did contact the new owner of the pup that left Sat. to let him know to keep an eye on her, but here's my question.

1. I suspect the other 4 pups I have are plenty susceptible to this since they've been kenneled together - Is this assumption correct?

2. More importantly, can I just do a preventative Albon treatment on the other four to ensure they'll be ok, or should I watch to see if I see anything concerning?

Vet said this is most common for those who wash out and hose out kennels several times a day. That is not the case here. They were in an above ground pen until 5 weeks and have been in a larger, chainlink kennel on concrete since.

Is there anything I could have done preventatively to cut the odds of this down?

I am in the middle of relocating and have plans to build an 8x8 above ground that I can keep them in for a longer period of time, but that's down the road.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

I'd love to have Jack get in on this one.
I've got a dandy litter of 6 pups. One just left to her new home Saturday. I've got one little female that my vet (damn good vet btw) said has a giardia looking protozoa in her. Not a problem. Hitting her with the Albon and I expect her to be just fine. I did contact the new owner of the pup that left Sat. to let him know to keep an eye on her, but here's my question.

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Hello good sir 8)

Two things to say on this one: 1) I have a great article on this very subject already posted, and 2) if Giardia is the culprit, you're using the wrong medicine to treat; Albon is for coccidia; metronidazole/fenbendazole are what to use for Giardia :idea:

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

1. I suspect the other 4 pups I have are plenty susceptible to this since they've been kenneled together - Is this assumption correct?
2. More importantly, can I just do a preventative Albon treatment on the other four to ensure they'll be ok, or should I watch to see if I see anything concerning?

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Yes to both questions: I would definitely be treating the whole litter, and yes again it will prevent/treat the others who (though maybe not 'symptomatic') in all probability have already been exposed.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

Vet said this is most common for those who wash out and hose out kennels several times a day. That is not the case here. They were in an above ground pen until 5 weeks and have been in a larger, chainlink kennel on concrete since.

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You can bleach the bejesus out of your kennels, but at the end of the day (since you're dealing with microscopic organisms) there is no getting every little nook & cranny, so it is better just to have the meds onhand.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

Is there anything I could have done preventatively to cut the odds of this down?
I am in the middle of relocating and have plans to build an 8x8 above ground that I can keep them in for a longer period of time, but that's down the road.
Thanks!

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Not really.

Once either Giardia (or, especially, Coccidia) take hold, YOU HAVE IT on your yard. Giardia is a bit easier to deal with, since it is found in stagnant water for the most part. So maybe it rained and you let the water sit for awhile, I don't know, but Coccidia is almost impossible to be rid of, once you get it, and it is simply a matter of making sure you have the drugs onhand to deal with it, once you get it. The reason is, like babesia, you can't really kill the coccidia, you just put it into remission, so you probably have several adults shedding the oocysts in their feces on your yard right now, even though they are healthy and feeling fine.

Jack

Jack, I really appreciate your reply. Tons of help.For you to take the time to go into detail and address my situation is greatly appreciated.

For everyone's benefit, I want to bounce some things off of you regarding this stuff.

What I'm being told, is that Giardia and Coccidiosis are both protozoa and are from the same "family", so to speak, so therefore, that is why the Albon will cover me for both. Where you at on this? I looked in my Merk Man. and it told me plenty about coxy, but I didn't know where to start with the Giardia as there was nothing to lead me to canine specific Giardia.

It also mentioned, for coxy, to NOT feed raw meat! I'm curious as to why.

Finally, my original pup that contracted this, hasn't eaten in a full 36 hours now. I'm keep her hydrated with fluids under the skin, but she is still not interested in eating. Any ideas how to get her some nutrition down would be great.

Thank you!

Jack

I have read your entire article on coccidia and giardia. DAMN THAT'S VALUABLE INFO! Thank you so much for putting that together.

I'm headed to my vet right now to "fill him in" and get his take on all of this......let me rephrase, I'm going to fill him in and then tell him to give me the proper meds so I can knock this shit out of this one pup. Not eating for a day and a half ain't cuttin it.

THANKS

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

Jack, I really appreciate your reply. Tons of help.For you to take the time to go into detail and address my situation is greatly appreciated.

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My pleasure amigo :)

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

For everyone's benefit, I want to bounce some things off of you regarding this stuff.
What I'm being told, is that Giardia and Coccidiosis are both protozoa and are from the same "family", so to speak, so therefore, that is why the Albon will cover me for both. Where you at on this? I looked in my Merk Man. and it told me plenty about coxy, but I didn't know where to start with the Giardia as there was nothing to lead me to canine specific Giardia.

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Whoever told you this is both ignorant and knowledgeable at the same time.

He or she is right that Coccidia and Giardia are both protozoan parasites (as my article states), but this does NOT mean the same drugs work on both! For that matter, Babesia, Leishmanaiasis, and Malaria are ALL protozoa parasites as well, but each needs drastically-different meds to treat (although there is some overlap with malaria and babesia). Same with different kinds of bacteria. Just because staph infections and pseudomonas are both "bacteria infections" doesn't mean all you need is "one" antibiotic to treat them (and every other "bacteria" on the face of the earth). The truth is, there are ten dozen different kinds of antibiotic choices, each of which does something slightly different.

So whoever is telling you you can treat "all protozoa infections" with Albon is a bit daft and doesn't really know what he is talking about. Therefore, as far as "where am I" on this issue, again that is clearly stated in my article ... but the information won't help you if you want to follow someone else's misinformation ;)

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

It also mentioned, for coxy, to NOT feed raw meat! I'm curious as to why.

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Because the disease thrives in that environment.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

Finally, my original pup that contracted this, hasn't eaten in a full 36 hours now. I'm keep her hydrated with fluids under the skin, but she is still not interested in eating. Any ideas how to get her some nutrition down would be great.
Thank you!

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The reason she is not responding amigo, again, is because you're not giving her the right meds to treat her condition. If she has a confirmed case of Giardia, Albon is not going to help her ... any more than it would help a confirmed case of babesia, or malaria, or any other "protozoan" parasite that does NOT get affected by Albon.

Therefore, if you're sure she has Giardia, you are simply treating her with a medicine choice that is not helping her one bit.

Jack

So, would you suggest the TMZ/Flagyl treatment everytime and not mess with the Albon/Panacur?

Seems to me the TMZ/Flagyl mixture is the way to go!

Suggestions!?

I use the TMZ/Flagyl route if I am not really sure what I am dealing with (giardia or coccidia), that way I know I cover both. The TMZ gets coccidia, while the flagyl gets giardia.

However, if I had a confirmed case of Giardia, Flagyl and Panacur (fenbendazole) are what I would use, as they both work on Giardia specifically. It won't hurt to add TMZ, in case you have coccidia too, but the TMZ will do nothing for giardia (and, if you've already been using Albon unsuccessfully, that might be superfluous).

Was there any mention of coccidia also, or just giardia?

This dude is pissing me off Jack. He shows me the slide up on the screen. Shows me a real "squiggly" protozoa. He says, "That there is a protozoa. Probably a giradia type." BUT, then he gives me the Albon and tells me this gets all kinds of coccidia and girardia is a protozoa as well as the coxy so it should get all of it. SO, to be honest, I don't know what the hell I have.

This will work out fine b/c it is a learning experience that I will reference in the past. BUT FUCK! I got a little pup out there, that I think a hell of a lot of, who hasn't eaten in about 40-42 hours. She gags up water as well. I'm doing fluids under the skin to keep her hydrated. SHE IS NOT GETTING BETTER. I see her shrinking and not responding to anything.

Now, she did take a real watery shit in the living room floor about 30 minutes ago. It was brown. Would this be considered an improvement over the pale kakhi colored mucus shit she was having earlier?

Tell me your thoughts.

THANKS

if she wants to eat something feed her some boiled rice and boiled chicken in very small portions. better digestible and easy on the stumic

good luck with the pup

My thoughts are, regardless of the lack of proof-positive ID, the fact remains you're giving Albon and it's not working.

If the primary remedy for coccidia isn't working, then the odds begin to stack in favor of it being giardia, like he guestimated, so giving her flagyl/panacur isn't going to hurt ... and it may just save her life.

So that is what I would make it my business to do, give flagyl and panacur, as quickly as I could do it.

Good luck,

Jack

First stools were like a pure mucus and a very pale color. NOW - chocolate milk followed by a thin soft-serve chocolate ice-cream.

Is this good news or is it any indication of anything at all?

I would say the stool has improved a bit if it was pure mucus and pale first. R2L has given a good tip on a good digestible thing to feed her. It depends on how young the pup is. Already on solid food ?

OK - This dumb son of a bitch totally missed the fucking boat.

No protozoa problem of any kind, I've got fucking PARVO! How the hell does someone go into a vet and say, "I have a PUPPY who has diarrhea, throws up some and won't eat" and he NOT do a PARVO TEST?!

So now,,,,,,what the hell do I do with the siblings? I have one I know is coming down with it! She's eating and doing "ok", but I know she's got it b/c of how she acts. What do I do preventatively?

Have your vet prescribe you Tamiflu immediately ...

Jack

Thanks Jack - very much!

Best of luck !
Gotta get the Bible

how old are the pups, you guys normally vaccinate for parvo? Its a highly contagious disease so id watch them other puppies too

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

OK - This dumb son of a bitch totally missed the fucking boat.
No protozoa problem of any kind, I've got fucking PARVO! How the hell does someone go into a vet and say, "I have a PUPPY who has diarrhea, throws up some and won't eat" and he NOT do a PARVO TEST?!
So now,,,,,,what the hell do I do with the siblings? I have one I know is coming down with it! She's eating and doing "ok", but I know she's got it b/c of how she acts. What do I do preventatively?

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Honestly my friend, at some point you have to take some responsibility yourself. How long have you been in dogs and why haven't you bothered to learn all these things yet? I wrote an article on treating parvo, back in 1993, that clearly stated any time a pup is really sick it should be tested for parvo, coccidia, and giardia. That information has been on every website I have ever had, it is also in my book, and although I haven't yet re-posted it on this one since I changed servers 2 month ago, the fact is taking any sick pups in to have these 3 tests run is basically "Pit Bulls 101" for any breeder.

Also, you have to ask yourself, "Why do I continue to go to (and ask questions of) a vet who has proven himself indecisive and incompetent?" Because, personally, if any vet I went to proved himself so uneducated that he recommended I use a drug on giardia that I knew (or later learned) would not handle the problem, that would be the last time I would ask that ignoramus anything. I would be furious if a so-called vet were guilty of basic malpractice like that. I mean, this is basic stuff here. And, honestly, with as much experience as you have in dogs, good sir, you should know this already yourself if you bothered to read any basic book on dog care.

Because, actually, the first symptoms you described (pale stools) is a sign of giardia. So it is entirely possible your dog has parvo and giardia. Your vet may have accurately identified the giardia, but that doesn't mean parvo wasn't present as well. So, although I do agree that a concerned vet should recommend a parvo titer if a dog is not eating/vomiting/ and has diarrhea, ultimately it is also your responsibility to have read enough by now about "what can go wrong with pups" so that you ask the vet to check for parvo and coccidia/giardia as well. That is the very first step any owner should take, if his pups are sick, is ruling out these 3 most-likely problems.

These 3 diseases are not "rare," or a big mystery; the truth is anyone who's bred dogs for a year or two should know about them, if they had the curiosity and concern for their animals to read some basic books on puppy raising. So I honestly don't think you can dump all of this on your vet.

Jack

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Honestly my friend, at some point you have to take some responsibility yourself. How long have you been in dogs and why haven't you bothered to learn all these things yet? I wrote an article on treating parvo, back in 1993, that clearly stated any time a pup is really sick it should be tested for parvo, coccidia, and giardia. That information has been on every website I have ever had, it is also in my book, and although I haven't yet re-posted it on this one since I changed servers 2 month ago, the fact is taking any sick pups in to have these 3 tests run is basically "Pit Bulls 101" for any breeder.

Also, you have to ask yourself, "Why do I continue to go to (and ask questions of) a vet who has proven himself indecisive and incompetent?" Because, personally, if any vet I went to proved himself so uneducated that he recommended I use a drug on giardia that I knew (or later learned) would not handle the problem, that would be the last time I would ask that ignoramus anything. I would be furious if a so-called vet were guilty of basic malpractice like that. I mean, this is basic stuff here. And, honestly, with as much experience as you have in dogs, good sir, you should know this already yourself if you bothered to read any basic book on dog care.

Because, actually, the first symptoms you described (pale stools) is a sign of giardia. So it is entirely possible your dog has parvo and giardia. Your vet may have accurately identified the giardia, but that doesn't mean parvo wasn't present as well. So, although I do agree that a concerned vet should recommend a parvo titer if a dog is not eating/vomiting/ and has diarrhea, ultimately it is also your responsibility to have read enough by now about "what can go wrong with pups" so that you ask the vet to check for parvo and coccidia/giardia as well. That is the very first step any owner should take, if his pups are sick, is ruling out these 3 most-likely problems.

These 3 diseases are not "rare," or a big mystery; the truth is anyone who's bred dogs for a year or two should know about them, if they had the curiosity and concern for their animals to read some basic books on puppy raising. So I honestly don't think you can dump all of this on your vet.

Jack

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Jack, good sir! Do not think for one second I haven't kicked my own ass a little on this deal right here. There are a few things pertaining to this case that are not like most cases.

1. I specifically asked the vet when I took her in, "You reckon this could be Parvo?" He asked a few questions about exposure, vaccinations, etc. and "deductively" ruled it out. True, I myself should have insisted a titer be done, but the "good old" vet was "quite sure" it was not parvo.

2. He went straight to the fecal test and declared "PROTOZOA". I agree that it could very well be both problems, but he pursued only one and when you have a Texas A&M vet tell you something or guide you down a path, you are inclined to follow and trust. Especially when he brings you to the fecal slide and points out "that's your problem".

3. Why go to this vet? How bout this one. I live in Memphis Texas. Look it up. There is nothing here. I have two vet options in Childress Texas (32 miles from my home). The other one already failed me with meds for pyometra and proved to be incompetent and the other one is this guy. Highly recommended by the way.....not be me, but before hand. My next option is in Clarendon Texas, 30+ miles away and bad reviews from locals here in my own town. The next option is Amarillo (87 miles away). So as far as having options, this is literally all I have. I've lived here for exactly 1 year and 1 week and will be moving next week. So hopefully, I'll have more options. However, as incredibly handy as it would be to be smarter than all vets on the planet, I should be confident when going to one that they know their business and will do me a good job......they do have a degree in this shit, years of practice and I'm paying the bill.

4. You suggest you would be "furious". Believe me, I am extremely hot over this ordeal. I have read many a book on dog care and by no means am I on the level of veterinarian, but I do a pretty good job. So many people in all forums/arenas, love to make suggestions, "Get the Bible" without being completely in the KNOW of the entire scope of the situation at hand. I'm the same guy who did use this book, this website and other dog breeders to pull a near death bitch through with pyometra. So shit happens and we should all be advised to not "jump hard or fast" to any conclusions.

5. These 3 diseases are not "rare," or a big mystery; the truth is anyone who's bred dogs for a year or two should know about them, if they had the curiosity and concern for their animals to read some basic books on puppy raising. So I honestly don't think you can dump all of this on your vet. Jack, while I appreciate your knowledge, willingness to share and although I have what I consider thick skin and take my meds with the best of them when wrong, you can be a condescending son of a gun at times. "IF THEY HAD THE CURIOSITY AND CONCERN FOR THEIR ANIMALS" is extremely accusational and presumptuous on your part. I have a very high level of curiousity and a great deal of concern for my animals. That is exhibited by the fact that I have tried extremely hard to take care of this situation and exhibited my efforts here as I want to do what is best for my animals. CURIOSITY AND CONCERN are two reasons I feed a completely natural and RAW diet, my dogs are as parasite free as any other yard in the world and one of, if not the main reason I frequent this board.

One has no experience without actually doing something. I haven't bred a litter of pups since about 6 years ago. However, I've bred dogs for 16 or 17 years now. Not one time, ever, have I had coccidia, girardia or parvo on my yard. Not once. Had two pups as a kid that had parvo and seen a few others on others' yards that had it, so I had a good eye once mine got bad, but that's it. I would say my conern and preventative care has always been well intact. How did I get this parvo? The only thing I can think of is I had a friend feed while I was away for a few days around a week ago. Who knows? I can't say I will become better than a Vet at diagnosing and treating every scenario under the sun, but I'll continue to do the best I can do. I figure that's all we can do.

With all that being said, I ALWAYS, EVERY DAY, ALL DAY LONG, take responsibility for ME and MINE! I am extremely furious at this vet, because to be honest, I believe he failed me. His attitude is shit, he never has time for what seems to be, "the big guy with the pits" but they seem to have all the time in the world for some fat ass bitch with a lab that's 40lbs overweight and can't breath from walking. But even so, I am responsible and have always lived my life this way. All the good I get, I got. All the bad I get, I made happen. So to be honest, I don't really need anyone coming to my situations lecturing me on accountabilty or "I need to take responsibility". There are times I post on this board for the simple fact that debate needs to occur for all to learn from and I share at times b/c someone may benefit from this.

Have a good one!

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

Jack, good sir! Do not think for one second I haven't kicked my own ass a little on this deal right here. There are a few things pertaining to this case that are not like most cases.
1. I specifically asked the vet when I took her in, "You reckon this could be Parvo?" He asked a few questions about exposure, vaccinations, etc. and "deductively" ruled it out. True, I myself should have insisted a titer be done, but the "good old" vet was "quite sure" it was not parvo.

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Well, actually, IMO (again) the "pale mucousy stools" signified giardia, not parvo.

Parvo stools are usually projectile-watery-bloody in nature, with a distinctive smell.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

2. He went straight to the fecal test and declared "PROTOZOA". I agree that it could very well be both problems, but he pursued only one and when you have a Texas A&M vet tell you something or guide you down a path, you are inclined to follow and trust. Especially when he brings you to the fecal slide and points out "that's your problem".

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There are thousands of different protozoa parasites, but I agree that if a vet told me "giardia," then I would think it was giardia.

However, if he told me the nonsense to give "Albon" to treat it, I would also know that this was wrong. The reason I would know this is wrong is because I have educated myself on the subject ... and, if I had never heard of giardia, then the moment I found out about it I would be educating myself on the subject. That's the difference right there: concerned enough to read-up on the subject.

That said, and back to this emergency situation, if the vet pointed out a positive giardia slide then your dog has giardia and you need to treat for it, irrespective of if the dog also has parvo.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

3. Why go to this vet? How bout this one. I live in Memphis Texas. Look it up. There is nothing here. I have two vet options in Childress Texas (32 miles from my home). The other one already failed me with meds for pyometra and proved to be incompetent and the other one is this guy. Highly recommended by the way.....not be me, but before hand. My next option is in Clarendon Texas, 30+ miles away and bad reviews from locals here in my own town. The next option is Amarillo (87 miles away). So as far as having options, this is literally all I have. I've lived here for exactly 1 year and 1 week and will be moving next week. So hopefully, I'll have more options. However, as incredibly handy as it would be to be smarter than all vets on the planet, I should be confident when going to one that they know their business and will do me a good job......they do have a degree in this shit, years of practice and I'm paying the bill.

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I feel your pain. At one point, when I was living in TN, the only vet I trusted lived 1.5 hours from me.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

4. You suggest you would be "furious". Believe me, I am extremely hot over this ordeal. I have read many a book on dog care and by no means am I on the level of veterinarian, but I do a pretty good job. So many people in all forums/arenas, love to make suggestions, "Get the Bible" without being completely in the KNOW of the entire scope of the situation at hand. I'm the same guy who did use this book, this website and other dog breeders to pull a near death bitch through with pyometra. So shit happens and we should all be advised to not "jump hard or fast" to any conclusions.

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Well, there is no way anyone can be entirely "in the know" of your situation, without being there ... or without you putting in the time to write about it .. but, based on the limited amount you did write, what we DID know was that you came back with a giardia diagnosis, you did not initially test for parvo, and you were advised to treat giardia with a drug that does not affect it. These are the facts that were originally presented by you.

Now you're saying it's not giardia, it's parvo, so I am left curious as to how a positive giardia diagnosis can "vanish" ... and be replaced with a positive parvo diagnosis? Again, if anything, this means your pup has both, and (with nothing being done correctly so far) I am surprised it is still alive, although sometimes fluid therapy alone can keep them going, so it's good you're doing that.

In the end, I am glad that my book helped in some respects, but the protocol to follow in my book is a test for all 3, which wasn't followed initially.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

5. These 3 diseases are not "rare," or a big mystery; the truth is anyone who's bred dogs for a year or two should know about them, if they had the curiosity and concern for their animals to read some basic books on puppy raising. So I honestly don't think you can dump all of this on your vet. Jack, while I appreciate your knowledge, willingness to share and although I have what I consider thick skin and take my meds with the best of them when wrong, you can be a condescending son of a gun at times. "IF THEY HAD THE CURIOSITY AND CONCERN FOR THEIR ANIMALS" is extremely accusational and presumptuous on your part. I have a very high level of curiousity and a great deal of concern for my animals. That is exhibited by the fact that I have tried extremely hard to take care of this situation and exhibited my efforts here as I want to do what is best for my animals. CURIOSITY AND CONCERN are two reasons I feed a completely natural and RAW diet, my dogs are as parasite free as any other yard in the world and one of, if not the main reason I frequent this board.

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I appreciate what you're saying, and I am really not trying to be condescending, but I do believe that all of this information is in the book ... so if you took the time to read it, you should know it, right? (Unless of course you forgot :) )

That said (and I am not saying this applies to you), I know a lot of dogmen who like "making puppies," and "selling puppies," and "doing bulldogs" too, but they don't really like to read about the finer points of veterinary medicine to prepare themselves should trouble arise. Doesn't mean they're bad guys, or don't know a lot about some aspects of dogmanship, but it does mean they're deficient in medical matters because they haven't taken the time to make them strong points.

Your point is well taken about the raw, and anyone who takes the time to prepare raw already distinguishes himself as a "better than average caregiver." But that still doesn't mean they read vet books and such :mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

One has no experience without actually doing something. I haven't bred a litter of pups since about 6 years ago. However, I've bred dogs for 16 or 17 years now.

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I am not sure how the math on this works out :)

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

Not one time, ever, have I had coccidia, girardia or parvo on my yard. Not once. Had two pups as a kid that had parvo and seen a few others on others' yards that had it, so I had a good eye once mine got bad, but that's it. I would say my conern and preventative care has always been well intact. How did I get this parvo? The only thing I can think of is I had a friend feed while I was away for a few days around a week ago. Who knows? I can't say I will become better than a Vet at diagnosing and treating every scenario under the sun, but I'll continue to do the best I can do. I figure that's all we can do.

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Pretty much anyone I know breeding dogs deals with coccidia fairly regularly. Giardia and parvo less frequently. Again, I am not trying to be mean, but I can't help but feel that anyone with 16 years into dogs, who doesn't know the signs/treatments for giardia/parvo/coccidia, doesn't do much reading on the subject of veterinary medicine. I don't know how to say this, without saying this, so (without being disrespectful) I sincerely believe this is a form of negligence: not bothering to read about dog ailments/treatments while owning a yard of dogs.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

With all that being said, I ALWAYS, EVERY DAY, ALL DAY LONG, take responsibility for ME and MINE! I am extremely furious at this vet, because to be honest, I believe he failed me. His attitude is shit, he never has time for what seems to be, "the big guy with the pits" but they seem to have all the time in the world for some fat ass bitch with a lab that's 40lbs overweight and can't breath from walking.

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I find your amended opinion on this vet interesting, because in your opening post you said he was "a damned good vet."

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

But even so, I am responsible and have always lived my life this way. All the good I get, I got. All the bad I get, I made happen. So to be honest, I don't really need anyone coming to my situations lecturing me on accountabilty or "I need to take responsibility". There are times I post on this board for the simple fact that debate needs to occur for all to learn from and I share at times b/c someone may benefit from this.
Have a good one!

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I think that it's great that you post things like this, and I sincerely do appreciate it, and I am sincerely sorry if you took offense to what I said. Again, I don't know how to point out what I believe were the errors and omissions without pointing them out :)

And I absolutely agree that debate needs to occur in order to flush-out the errors ... because, if everything went smoothly, and everything possible was done right, there would be no need for the post to begin with :idea:

So I hope you don't take offense to anything I said, because I didn't mean any :D

Cheers,

Jack

Good luck with that pup NQQ.
Keep us up to date & chin up !!

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Well, actually, IMO (again) the "pale mucousy stools" signified giardia, not parvo.

Parvo stools are usually projectile-watery-bloody in nature, with a distinctive smell.





There are thousands of different protozoa parasites, but I agree that if a vet told me "giardia," then I would think it was giardia.

However, if he told me the nonsense to give "Albon" to treat it, I would also know that this was wrong. The reason I would know this is wrong is because I have educated myself on the subject ... and, if I had never heard of giardia, then the moment I found out about it I would be educating myself on the subject. That's the difference right there: concerned enough to read-up on the subject.

That said, and back to this emergency situation, if the vet pointed out a positive giardia slide then your dog has giardia and you need to treat for it, irrespective of if the dog also has parvo.





I feel your pain. At one point, when I was living in TN, the only vet I trusted lived 1.5 hours from me.





Well, there is no way anyone can be entirely "in the know" of your situation, without being there ... or without you putting in the time to write about it .. but, based on the limited amount you did write, what we DID know was that you came back with a giardia diagnosis, you did not initially test for parvo, and you were advised to treat giardia with a drug that does not affect it. These are the facts that were originally presented by you.

Now you're saying it's not giardia, it's parvo, so I am left curious as to how a positive giardia diagnosis can "vanish" ... and be replaced with a positive parvo diagnosis? Again, if anything, this means your pup has both, and (with nothing being done correctly so far) I am surprised it is still alive, although sometimes fluid therapy alone can keep them going, so it's good you're doing that.

In the end, I am glad that my book helped in some respects, but the protocol to follow in my book is a test for all 3, which wasn't followed initially.





I appreciate what you're saying, and I am really not trying to be condescending, but I do believe that all of this information is in the book ... so if you took the time to read it, you should know it, right? (Unless of course you forgot :) )

That said (and I am not saying this applies to you), I know a lot of dogmen who like "making puppies," and "selling puppies," and "doing bulldogs" too, but they don't really like to read about the finer points of veterinary medicine to prepare themselves should trouble arise. Doesn't mean they're bad guys, or don't know a lot about some aspects of dogmanship, but it does mean they're deficient in medical matters because they haven't taken the time to make them strong points.

Your point is well taken about the raw, and anyone who takes the time to prepare raw already distinguishes himself as a "better than average caregiver." But that still doesn't mean they read vet books and such :mrgreen:





I am not sure how the math on this works out :)





Pretty much anyone I know breeding dogs deals with coccidia fairly regularly. Giardia and parvo less frequently. Again, I am not trying to be mean, but I can't help but feel that anyone with 16 years into dogs, who doesn't know the signs/treatments for giardia/parvo/coccidia, doesn't do much reading on the subject of veterinary medicine. I don't know how to say this, without saying this, so (without being disrespectful) I sincerely believe this is a form of negligence: not bothering to read about dog ailments/treatments while owning a yard of dogs.





I find your amended opinion on this vet interesting, because in your opening post you said he was "a damned good vet."





I think that it's great that you post things like this, and I sincerely do appreciate it, and I am sincerely sorry if you took offense to what I said. Again, I don't know how to point out what I believe were the errors and omissions without pointing them out :)

And I absolutely agree that debate needs to occur in order to flush-out the errors ... because, if everything went smoothly, and everything possible was done right, there would be no need for the post to begin with :idea:

So I hope you don't take offense to anything I said, because I didn't mean any :D

Cheers,

Jack

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1. My dog had an "abnormal stool" so she was taken to a licensed, practicing, experienced veterinarian. Shouldn't he be able to make a proper, correct, and thorough evaluation of the dog? Should I expect the evaluation to be accurate?

2. However, if he told me the nonsense to give "Albon" to treat it, I would also know that this was wrong. The reason I would know this is wrong is because I have educated myself on the subject ... and, if I had never heard of giardia, then the moment I found out about I would be educating myself on the subject. That's the difference right there: concerned enough to read-up on the subject.

I did not know it was wrong, so therefore, I looked it up, posted questions on here, thus, I learned, or "educated myself on the subject". That's the difference right there: I WAS concerned enough to read-up on the subject!

3. That said, and back to this emergency situation, if the vet pointed out a positive giardia slide then your dog has giardia and you need to treat for it, irrespective of if the dog also has parvo.

This, I completely agree with. Let me tell you about my morning. I take my "other suspected parvo pup" to the vet I had "bad references on" this morning. WHY? B/c I already know what to expect from this jackass I'm using (was) now. This vet has all the right answers. She even tells me, "The reason your other guy disagreed with you on the Flagyl for girardia is b/c he doesn't have any. I know him and he doesn't even have any on hand. You aren't the first to tell me things like this about the guy." She gets my pup going on all the right things. She also completely disagrees with your (Jack) views about Tamiflu. Says they've tried it numerous times with no such luck and it does not work. I didn't agree or disagree with her. I tell her I'm going to get my other pup, at this other vet's office. He's closed of course b/c it's the 4th of July. I call his home, his wife answers and says, "He's up there right now tending to your pup and a horse." I tell her, I'm headed that way. She asks, "What for?" I shouldn't have told her, but since she works for him, I said, "I'm going to pick up my dog." She dies laughing and begins to ask "what for? Why? How come?" I tell her it's no reason and head off to her husband's office. He's not there. I go back, call for 30 minutes straight. Even let it ring 20 straight times. They will not answer the phone. I look his address up, head on over. He's in the yard weed-eating. I approach, calm, no loud voice or attitude. I say, "I need to pick up my dog."
He says, "Well, she just threw up. It's not a good time to take her." Remember, he just has her on fluids and albon alone.
I say, "That's alright, I just want to pick her up and take elsewhere."
He YELLS! "THAT'S FINE - YOU GONNA PAY ME WHAT I GOT IN IT!"
I say, "That's fine as long as you pay me for the EXTRA 180 miles of driving I did for you to finally do a Parvo test"
This guy drops his wead eater, gets up in my face and screams, "YOU DIDN"T EVEN VACCINATE THOSE PUPS. IF YOU DID WHAT YOU SAID YOU DID, THEN SHE WOULDN'T HAVE PARVO"
I simple, calmly tell him, "That right there's why I'm picking her up. You have been an asshole for 2 days and I've had it"

Long story long, we went up, picked up my pup who is sitting in a cage with IV fluids, 1/2 inch deep, soaked with Neomycin all over her chest and face. I take her to the new vet, she gets her going and I believe all is good. Showing her professionalism (and my trust in you Jack) she calls me in a script for Tamiflu and flagyl for my pups at home NOT showing any negative signs and I've already done a preventative treatment today and will follow through with it for the next 4. And for the record, this vet did fecal slides on both and found no protozoa or worms of any kind. Was floored they had parvo knowing what vaccine I used (duramune - again - YOUR recommendation Jack). However, b/c I asked, she's treating them for both the giardia and parvo.

4. Well, there is no way anyone can be entirely "in the know" of your situation, without being there ... or without you putting in the time to write about it .. but, based on the limited amount you did write, what we DID know was that you came back with a giardia diagnosis, you did not initially test for parvo, and you were advised to treat giardia with a drug that does not affect it. These are the facts that were originally presented by you.

No, what you DID know, was that I came back with a giardia diagnosis, MY VET did not initially test for parvo and I was advised to treat giardia with inaffective drugs. THESE are teh facts originally presented by me.

5.[B]Now you're saying it's not giardia, it's parvo, so I am left curious as to how a positive giardia diagnosis can "vanish" ... and be replaced with a positive parvo diagnosis?
I'm not saying giardia was non-existant. I said we added Parvo. You yourself stated earlier that we should treat for both. The treatment for the giardia, as dumbass vet prescribed, did not work and I'm inclined to believe even after I was "concerned" enough myself to research and find out for myself that I should be doing something for the Girardia, it's affectiveness was invisible due to the parvo that was already there.

Again, if anything, this means your pup has both, and (with nothing being done correctly so far) I am surprised it is still alive, although sometimes fluid therapy alone can keep them going, so it's good you're doing that.[/B]

Can't say "nothing being done correctly". The dog showed signs of being just "off". I never waited, I took the dog to a licensed, practicing, experienced vetarinarian. This IS doing something and for most people, it's a real good first step.

In the end, I am glad that my book helped in some respects, but the protocol to follow in my book is a test for all 3, which wasn't followed initially.

Jack, you wrote your book. I happen to love it and it's a tremendous reference for me and does my dogs well for me to have on hand. But I don't have my entire life devoted to Pit Bulls and every aspect of canine health as you do. I love my dogs and I love this breed, but just like you, what I do professionally, you wouldn't be able to hang with me. I can't hang with what you do professionally either. Sorry. You book helped in this situation tremendously, but I put faith and trust in a vet and this vet should have known to check all three things....am I wrong? Why is it my job to know what to test a dog for? When you yourself go to the doctor, do you know every aspect of every disease so that you can 'coach' your doctor through doing his job right? I doubt it.

6. I appreciate what you're saying, and I am really not trying to be condescending, but I do believe that all of this information is in the book ... so if you took the time to read it, you should know it, right? (Unless of course you forgot )

No, that is not right. Do you KNOW everything you've ever read Jack? Seriously, that's a stretch for validation to make a point. B/c of this bullshit debate with you, I will check the book you wrote next time BEFORE I head to the vet. For the record, I love the book and have read it from front to back. I do NOT KNOW it like you. I doubt many here, if any, know it as well as you. Sorry.

7. That said (and I am not saying this applies to you), I know a lot of dogmen who like "making puppies," and "selling puppies," and "doing bulldogs" too, but they don't really like to read about the finer points of veterinary medicine to prepare themselves should trouble arise. Doesn't mean they're bad guys, or don't know a lot about some aspects of dogmanship, but it does mean they're deficient in medical matters because they haven't taken the time to make them strong points.
I see this completely and agree with you. I don't know the medical matters as much as I would like. Honestly, I'm typically better than this particular episode, but with some being misled and confusion thrown my way, it was easier for me to get lost on the way to my goal due to my own dificiecy. But to address this particular statement made by you, would this kind of "dogman" be well served to get his dog to the vet the first show of trouble? This is what I did but this course of action also seems to be deficient in your eyes.

8. Your point is well taken about the raw, and anyone who takes the time to prepare raw already distinguishes himself as a "better than average caregiver." But that still doesn't mean they read vet books and such
Never said it did. Simply argued against you that I am "Concerned". Maybe you should have been more specific with your point to prove I'm not "concerned" for my dogs as there are many ways I can validate the "concern" I do have.

9. Pretty much anyone I know breeding dogs deals with coccidia fairly regularly. Giardia and parvo less frequently. Again, I am not trying to be mean, but I can't help but feel that anyone with 16 years into dogs, who doesn't know the signs/treatments for giardia/parvo/coccidia, doesn't do much reading on the subject of veterinary medicine.

Jack, b/c I've been in this breed for 17 years, doesn't mean I have the same level of experience as anyone. I've only probably bred less than 12 litters in that time. I've had as many as 42 dogs at one time. That doesn't mean much either. Again, you assume b/c of the years I have, I don't know particular signs. If I didn't know "signs" then why did I go to the vet and why is my vet's (former) inability to do his job my fault?
I don't know how to say this, without saying this, so (without being disrespectful) I sincerely believe this is a form of negligence: not bothering to read about dog ailments/treatments while owning a yard of dogs. I can see a certain amount of validity here, but again, how in the world am I negligent when I spotted something wrong with a dog and took it to the vet as soon as I did? How is this negligence? To be "smarter" than the vet is great and I do agree, the more I know the better, and believe me, I know more now, but in reality, I did the right thing and am being criticized for it on a board that is suppose to be "dogman friendly".....or I assumed it was.

10. I find your amended opinion on this vet interesting, because in your opening post you said he was "a damned good vet." And this is fair. I thought this guy did me a pretty good job on the pyometra treatment I did. I never took the dog in, told him everything I needed, and I was able to take care of my bitch THE RIGHT WAY. Why? B/c I was "concerned" so I educated myself, read (therefore I know) about it and took care of business. With this being said, you can now see why I thought highly of him and felt comfortable going back in with something simple like some runny shit. Well, this episode has totally ruined my perception of the guy. They guy was a total jackass this go round so NOW, regardless of the past, I think he sucks.

11. I think that it's great that you post things like this, and I sincerely do appreciate it, and I am sincerely sorry if you took offense to what I said. Again, I don't know how to point out what I believe were the errors and omissions without pointing them out
You know as well as I do, you could use more "tact" at times. I relate to you b/c in my areas of expertise, I find myself having little patience and time for those who do not have a higher understanding and knowledge of what is so important to me. I see this in you and how you interact at times. Your deductive reasoning skills are quite impressive and ability to debate, dissect and logically take something apart or put something together is remarkable. However, sometimes, as we all are at times, you are a condescending son of a gun. With that being said, I mean no offense in that as I like you very much and find your "giving" to the breed and the totality of this forum, regardless of tact, impressive as hell.
And I absolutely agree that debate needs to occur in order to flush-out the errors ... because, if everything went smoothly, and everything possible was done right, there would be no need for the post to begin with
LOL....no, the post originated to get help, not for me to have others call me "negligent" or not "concerned".
So I hope you don't take offense to anything I said, because I didn't mean any
I did take offense regardless of your intentions. This happens b/t people. There are people in your life now, or before now, that know you much better than I on enough levels to reveal things true to you that would offend you. Regardless of intentions.

I can't do this again. I don't have time. I do appreciate all the help and I have to be honest, you pissed me off enough on some of this, I will be more informed and not listen to this shit again. So, I guess all in all, it's all good. Feel free to take everything I said apart, line by line and show me, and everyone else, how inept, careless and stupid I am. I will not rebutt again. Disregard all spelling as this was way too much for me to type to go back and read for corrections of any kind.

Thank you and good day!

Damn dude, chill out and have a Happy Fourth of July :lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabbagabbahey

Good luck with that pup NQQ.
Keep us up to date & chin up !!

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Will do gabba and thank you very much for your sentiments. With no credit to me, this line of dogs I run are some real tough, durable dogs with a strong will to live bred into them as a priority. Gary Hammonds has done a very good job for about 50 years selecting strong willed, determined, durable animals and I get to reap the benefits of that. I've seen quite a few that should have died. I expect these little guys to pull through for me. I really do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Damn dude, chill out and have a Happy Fourth of July :lol:

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LOL.....Will do. I think I'll do some homeade margaritas and grill some meat and do just that. CHILL!

You do the same Jack and thanks.

These dogs can get frustrating, I know, so a round of margaritas sounds like a good remedy :)

And I hope your pup(s) come out okay,

Jack

I know you do and I really do appreciate the entire thread.

Anyone paying attention knows there is much to be learned from trials and tribulations!

Thank you Sir!