The Undesirables

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Originally Posted by Pit Bull Committed

I agree. Jack you should create a "like" feature. :-)

Haha YES!

All of this stuff is opinions. If everything is ever changing, whatever degree you put on a dog may be different the next time. When it's nut cutting time it's decisions to be made and yall seriously think that decision should be based on a variable. The very thing that can make experiments, results, and research rendered invalid or inconclusive. It's a lot of serious dogmen laughing at this degree post because its simply each persons prespective and opinion. This is about terms or labels for dogs that got away with a win or hung on just long enough to look decent. The dog that won at the beginning of this post is one some may feel got away showing undesirable traits at points. Either way he won. What his owner does with him from there on or believes of him is his choice. I don't get why it's such a strong argument for variables and opinions. Everything said can go both ways. That is dwelling in simplicity at its finest. No matter the simplistic rebuttal, vernacular, or vocabulary prowess of any ones response to the topic, it's still opinion. Put a "does it matter button" and "dislike" there too. As we can see this post is limited in participants.

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Originally Posted by Pit Bull Committed

I agree. Jack you should create a "like" feature. :-)

Well, get ready for my next response then ... just got back from my trip to Utah, Zion National Park 8)

There are rarely any absolutes in life, let alone these dogs. Why is it so hard to conceive that there are levels pf gameness, and levels of cur. Back in the day, cur simply meant non pit dog. Now, it means any dog that quits. So, if they will all quit, and they all are curs, the point of the whole game has changed from seeing which dog has more gameness, to just which one will win. If that is now the case, why use this breed, since all dogs will go, and the only separating factor is this breed's level(s) of gameness.

I have such a huge article to write on this topic, but unfortunately I just don't have the time to get into it. It is a great topic, and I want to do it justice, but will have to be in a week or two.

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Originally Posted by SZ82

There are rarely any absolutes in life, let alone these dogs. Why is it so hard to conceive that there are levels pf gameness, and levels of cur. Back in the day, cur simply meant non pit dog. Now, it means any dog that quits. So, if they will all quit, and they all are curs, the point of the whole game has changed from seeing which dog has more gameness, to just which one will win. If that is now the case, why use this breed, since all dogs will go, and the only separating factor is this breed's level(s) of gameness.

Good points SZ82, and well said.

S_B

Thanks, S_B, I did hope that made some kind of sense.

1 Attachment(s)

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

I realize all too well that we don't agree on this subject, and that's fine.

Yes it is.

However, make no mistake: one of us is right, and one of us is wrong.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

I don't see a dog that quits in 3 hours after being ahead for 2:55 as having any degree of gameness.

First, we have to define what gameness **IS** in order to have an intelligent discussion about the subject :idea:

If we can agree that Gameness = The Will to Keep Trying to Win, then the described dog had "a will to win" ... so long as he was ahead ... however, if challenged or put behind, the will to win disappears.

If you personally define gameness as something other than "the will to keep trying to win," then you need to define what you're talking about so that we can have a common frame of reference for discussion :idea:

My own personal view is you are calling DEAD gameness "gameness," which is the source of your 20+ year blunder and MIS-understanding of the concept IMO.

Gameness simply = the will to win.

Dead Gameness means "a will to win that is GREATER THAN the will to survive" ... and so a DG dog will keep on trying to win, even in the face of death.

Moreover, my own view is that even a dog that displays "dead gameness" to ONE opponent (set of circumstances) may not necessarily display the same level of gameness to another opponent (set of circumstances).

Your belief appears to be that, if any dog shows dead game, then (by default) you assume said dog will be dead game to any opponent, under any circumstance, which I happen to view as naive and too simplistic to be valid. History has shown many dogs that proved to be ALMOST dead game in one match/set of circumstances, but who hung it up on another match/set of circumstances. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that this could happen to a "proven DG dog," if it was able to be resurrected and put in another position, against a different level opponent, in different condition, in different health, etc.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Scenarios matter. Blanket statements do not, and I'm guilty of making plenty of blanket statements over the years.

I agree scenarios matter, which is precisely why I reject your simplistic view that "a dead game dog is a dead game dog," regardless of opponent/circumstance.

You just said scenarios matter, and therefore circumstances matter. AND YET you fail to take in these very things when analyzing gamenees.

I believe you are not yet intellectually-aware that your statement "a game dog is always a game dog" is one of very those BLANKET STATEMENTS that can therefore NEVER be true, again precisely because of the infinity of variables out there.

There is a certain density to your view of gameness IMO ...

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Sure, which is why I don't do that, and nowhere in this post did I lump that type of dog in with such a dog as you described. Nor would I, which is also why I said what I did previously about thinking about such things before using such a word.

The word "cur" is simply a disparaging remark.

If cur = a dog that "quit," it is still a worthless word until we analyze those very CIRCUMSTANCES you mentioned earlier (scenarios, etc.).

Again, a dog that quit after going 2:55, on the bottom, brutalized, in-shock, etc., can not in any way be put in the same "cur bag" as a dog that pissed itself and sailed over the wall when his lip got pinched in the first :05.

Anyone who tries to equate these dogs is simply a fucking idiot.

There will always be the begging question TO WHAT :idea: :idea:

Game TO WHAT?

Cur TO WHAT?

A dog that goes 2:55, ahead, and untouched, may not be as game as a dog that belly-crawled 3x, with its guts hanging out, but finally collapsed, and failed to go at the :40 mark.

People who don't understand this are idiots IMO ... they fail to take in the various "scenarios" you mentioned.

Each case is unique; each case requires scrutiny.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

The same can be said for believing in degrees of dogs being curs, whatever. Top shelf curs, run of the mill curs, rank curs, etc.

IMO, if Gameness = the will to win and go forward, then Curness = the will to stop and run away.

The term Cold = the desire to do neither; the dog will not run, but the dog will not fight, either.

If we can accept these terms (that Gamness = the desire to continue forward; Curness = the desire to run away/give ground; while Cold = no desire at all), then we take a GIANT step in understanding WTH we're talking about.

If we cannot agree to these terms, then we need to hash-out some definitions before we argue this topic any further.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Pit game is not a term I would even utter from my mouth. Pit game = front running cur until it can't front run any longer. It's just a nice way of saying of it.

Front-running cur is just your typical non-nice way of saying it :lol:

Both say the same thing: a dog that WILL fight, so long as he's ahead and doesn't get put too far behind ...

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

They may not share my opinion, and that's ok. My opinions are formed due to my own experience. Someone else may have completely different experiences which form their own opinion. That's fine.

I don't think your opinions are formed from "experiences," but rather from personal bias combined with close personal association with some of the densest, dog-wastingest individuals in the sport.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

I think if a dog has taken it's death in the box, it clearly IS "the right helpings" and/or opponent.

A dog that takes its death in the box has shown DEAD gameness against ONE opponent, under ONE set of circumstances, nothing more, nothing less.

The fact that it has done so has absolutely ZERO bearing on what that dog might do against ANOTHER opponent, in DIFFERENT shape, in a DIFFERENT state of health, under ANOTHER set of circumstances, etc. None at all.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

True. Same goes for everyone else.

The simple truth is, some people's opinions are in alignment with reality, and some people's are not :idea:

One of the greatest fallacies in life is to believe that "all" opinions are correct ...

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

History is also filled with those same men saying those exact same things, and the dogs they were talking about went right out to win/die trying the next time.

True.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Or they were simply wrong and there wasn't really any variation except a better dog. There could have just as easily been zero variance, and the dog was simply a cur from the very beginning.

No, these men were right, based on the information available to them (how the dogs handled themselves, against their previous opponents and under the previous sets of circumstances).

Sometimes dogs will perform the same way, against the next dogs, and against the next set of circumstances ... HOWEVER ... sometimes a whole new dog, and a whole new set of circumstances will CHANGE EVERYTHING ... and in your bones you know this is true ...

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Maybe so. Maybe not. Traits also may not change. The dog that takes the killing may simply sustain the killing without any issues, but gets frustrated on an ace ear dog. Does that necessarily mean his gameness changed? Not necessarily. Frustration was his achilles heel, and it took the ear dog to find exactly that. The same can be said for dogs that have taken a killing damage wise, but quit as soon as they get hot in the summer. Did the traits change? We don't know. No one knows if they actually changed or not or if that was simply the weak spot in the dog's armor.

You're simply refusing to acknowledge the obvious, due to that "density" I mentioned earlier.

If a dog shows extreme gameness under one set of circumstances, but shows "weakness in the armor" under another set of circumstances, then all this means is the dog's gameness is AFFECTED by opponents and circumstances ... ALL DOGS ARE! Here are some of the MANY "circumstances" that can affect gameness:

Age
Health
Experience
Condition
Quality of Opposition
Hormones/Heat Cycles
Pregnancy
Drugs/Poison, etc.

If anyone doesn't believe these things can and do affect gameness, then they are not very intelligent IMO.

However, I am pretty sure even you will concede that these things can and do affect gameness, and if you do acknowledge that these things can affect gameness, then you are (by default) admitting that GAMENESS CAN BE AFFECTED.

Once you admit that gameness can be affected, then you admit that gameness is NOT absolute, that is comes in DEGREES, and that those very "scenarios" you mentioned up-top DO MATTER in the assessment of each individual case you're looking at.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Again, there's this nasty word again: Opinion. Your opinion is I'm wrong based on your perspective of dogs. Based on mine, I'm right. Who exactly is wrong when ideas are based on opinions and experiences. I would never tell anyone Frosty was deadgame as he never died in the box. So, that's simply a one sided debate folks can have with their own inner voice.

My opinion is based on my INTERPRETATION of my experiences; your opinion is likewise based on your INTERPRETATION of your experiences.

Facts are facts. It is all in how we INTERPRET the facts that we see, which allows us to form CORRECT (or INCORRECT) opinions ...

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

And just because he did belly crawl once doesn't mean he wouldn't do it again, or the next 10 days. Or maybe he would simply take his death in the box, and nothing ever changed for him. The only way to know would be to take a dog out there and do it to see if his traits changed.

We agree.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

I don't misunderstand the word game. I simply have a different out look on it than you do. Your ideas are not mine.

You have to first DEFINE the word "Game" in order to discuss this term intelligently :idea:

I have placed my definition, which is the standard definition (one which Greenwood postulated before either one of us was in dogs).

I am asking you to CLEARLY DEFINE your understanding of the word GAME ... so that we can see if we're even talking about the same thing.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Degrees of curs

Your old compatriot, and mentor, Pinky & The Brain, used this argument on me almost 2 decades ago :-?

He likened the gameness/curness debate to the debate of HOT versus COLD :idea:

Pinky very intelligently, and astutely, pointed out that (when discussing the presence of "hot" versus "cold"), the scientific reality was THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS COLD :-t

In other words, what we "call" COLD is merely the absence of heat.
The biological reality is there is ONLY "heat" (the vibration of atoms/molecules).
What we call "cold" is simply the lessening of these vibrations; what we call "heat" is simply the amplifying of these vibrations :idea:

Pinky, like you, therefore, only thought there was "degrees of cur."

And, like you, I destroyed this premise by focusing on THE POSITIVE (whereas you two characteristically focus on the negative).

In the hot/cold debate, the TRUE existence is the existence of THE POSITIVE (VIBRATION ---- HEAT) ... and, in the same sense, gameness is also a POSITIVE existence, namely, the existence of the POSITIVE will to GO FORWARD and TRY TO WIN :idea:

Therefore, if we use the hot/cold analogy, and admit that scientifically there IS NO "presence of cold" (there is only the ABSENCE of heat) ... then there IS NO "presence of cur" either (there is only the ABSENCE of gameness) :mrgreen:

A dog that has "Absolute Zero" degrees of gameness = a cold dog.

A dog that fights for :05 has almost no gameness.

A dog that fights for :30 has an average amount of gameness.

A dog that fights until the last breath of life in him is a dead game dog.

On and on and on it goes ...

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

LOL. Not hardly. What I breed for pushes dogs into a grey area of possibly living or dying, maybe even being stopped. When I see what I want, I'm satisfied. I also know that since my dog isn't dead, he could still possibly quit, and yet, he may not either hence Top Shelf Cur. Maybe the dog is in the top 5 or 10% of dogs alive at that time, maybe not. I'm quite happy to admit that most all dogs alive are curs, and that's pretty normal within this breed. What I won't do is use a label reserved for the epitome of this breed simply because it fits neatly and is a wanted definition by most.

In closing, I don't actually think the Hot/Cold model fits the Gameness/Curness scenario with exactness.

The reason is, there can also be the presence or RANK COWARDICE (the will to run away).

If gameness = the volitional will to go FORWARD and TRY TO WIN ... and if "coldness" = NO volitional will to do anything, to just stand there and not fight ... then (in reality) CURness = cowardice THE COWARDLY WILL TO RETREAT/RUN AWAY.

Therefore, while the Hot/Cold comparison makes an interesting analogy, there is a difference, which I tried to illustrate via the attached bell-shaped curve below:

MOST dogs are neither total rank curs nor 100% dead game.

Therefore MOST dogs fall in the middle somewhere ... and we pit bull breeders try to "breed to the right-side" of this bell-shaped curve :lol:

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Again, curs, gameness, whatever you want to use.

Using the terms we have available to us loosely is not the same as using them correctly :idea:

Jack