DEBATE ON DEX / SOLU-DELTA / CORTICO-STEROIDS

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Originally Posted by Nut

Even though they have short half life dosage. My concern was fluid would withdrawal at a much higher rate as the dosage for anti swelling purposes.

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You have to learn to distinguish between "your concern" (imagination) and reality.

Your concern is legitimate. Definitely.

The reality is, no dog is going to piss-out 1000 ml of fluids faster than you can get it into him with a bolus dose of IV Fluids.

And hell, if the dog does piss out a big amount of fluids, CELEBRATE!, because it means his kidneys are now working :D

And then, guess what? You can run another bag of fluids in him and not give anymore dex/solu ... and keep him hydrated :D

Again, these drugs at that dose are for the VERY short term. ONCE ... maybe TWICE ... but no more :idea:

If they make him have to get up and piss, great! That is progress and a big relief!

You can discontinue (or drastically lower) the cortic-steroid dose, and keep on giving IV fluids.

When he's eating, and drinking, you stop giving those drugs altogether at that point, and continue with fluids and antibiotics.

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Originally Posted by Nut

Thanks for giving a better understanding.

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You're welcome :mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by Nut

Hope this link works: Volvulen It opens in PDF so it probably doens't work on phone.

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Honestly, I haven't used it. The symptoms show an irregular heart beat and I am not sure that is something I would want to do in a life-n-death thing.

But I have no experience, and know of no one who has either, so I can't be of much help here, sorry.

Jack

One more thing to remember is not to go overboard on fluids either :idea:

If you're running IV Fluids, only give what is mentioned in the Article, based on weight.

If you give TOO MUCH fluids, you can actually "drown" your dog, via pulmonary edema (lungs fill with fluid) ... so don't be too gung-ho there either :idea:

Jack

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

The reality is, no dog is going to piss-out 1000 ml of fluids faster than you can get it into him with a bolus dose of IV Fluids.

And hell, if the dog does piss out a big amount of fluids, CELEBRATE!, because it means his kidneys are now working :D

And then, guess what? You can run another bag of fluids in him and not give anymore dex/solu ... and keep him hydrated :D

Again, these drugs at that dose are for the VERY short term. ONCE ... maybe TWICE ... but no more :idea:

If they make him have to get up and piss, great! That is progress and a big relief!

Jack

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This is the simple truth, why one could not grasp this is beyond me. Any why try to complicate things further if you are not as experienced as the ones laying it out for you?

I can see trying to debate this, or using other products if you have the field experience and medical knowledge. But why try to tweak or change what knowledgeable veterinarians, vet techs and dogmen have been doing to save a warrior or any animal experiencing trauma and shock?

It is best to learn these methods first and be great at them before questioning them.

Assumption is the mother of all fucks ups. You're not going to learn any methods before trusting and understanding them. Its better to ask questions when you don't. Nothing can go wrong if you do that. Just slightly if you question it in the wrong manner and piss of Jack. To many people ask to little questions because of their pride or lack of effort to learn something. My apologies to Jack for bringing it up in that manner. But that was in private and i wouldn't have state it like that if I created the tread. Like i said in my first reply I will be happy if correct information is in the article when everything is said and done, even it remains the same. There's a few tweaks, I learned (understand) something new, and I bet some others did too. Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Nut

Do you mean lbs? I said a dog can lose about one kilo over a day. Depending on strength of the drug and size of the dog. I have seen people weighing in a pound under from giving half a cc in the morning.]

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LOL Yes. Everything depends on the strength of the drug, but I've never given 1mL of dex of ANY strength and seen a dog lose that much weight over a 24hour period.

Here's something people are missing. When your dog is dehydrated to that extent, it doesn't have the fluid to give. Most of the fluid, at that time, is being shunted toward the organs, so your urine output is going to be minimal regardless of what the dog is getting. The body is intent on saving those organs, and it's a more mechanical response than anything else. So even with the fluid replacement, your dog isn't going to lose a large portion of fluids simply because of being replaced.

If your organs shut down, your dog is going to die 98% of the time. There is no coming back from multi-organ failure. When the kidneys don't work correctly, it's usually from rhabdomyolysis. Your dog can develop that from work or after a long show, but usually it's going to come into play after the show.

Voluven is a colloid, which is usually one of the things used when shock is encountered. Normal Saline and Lacted Ringers are crystalloids. All of those things are recommended. You just need to be careful of any adverse effects when using colloids as they're not all the same.

The entire thought process of "drying" a dog out was to decrease the amount of bleeding from any damage. It's a tricky process, and I've never seen anyone actually be able to do it as described as it's usually just too much deficit for the dog to overcome. When the dog is dry, nothing works as it should.

The times I heard of people giving Dex before the show is because they noticed they were coming overweight. As a result of this stupidity they came in way under. Others give it right before the show for anti swelling purposes.

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Originally Posted by Nut

Assumption is the mother of all fucks ups.

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Assumption is especially "the mother of all fuck ups" when assuming a man who's been in dogs about as long as you've been alive is "wrong" ... when in fact you're the one who's wrong ;)

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Originally Posted by Nut

You're not going to learn any methods before trusting and understanding them. Its better to ask questions when you don't. Nothing can go wrong if you do that.

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Asking questions is a great thing to do.
Coming off like an arrogant prick is not.

The audacity of telling me to take down all my "wrong information," when in fact you have no understanding of the subject, is almost unbelievable.
Telling me to issue "a public retraction" to everyone, because you THINK I'm wrong is much different from "asking a question" :rolleyes:

You need to recognize the difference, and you need to learn how to actually ASK a question, rather than PRESUMING "you must be right" ... "just because you're YOU" :lol:

You might be surprised to learn I have thoroughly researched this subject ... long before you have ever owned a dog ... and the medics that have been involved in helping me were all topnotch.

That said, I WELCOME new information ... I WELCOME updated drug/dosage information ... I WELCOME honest, thoughtful questions :D

But I'll be damned if some relative newcomer is going to "insist" that I issue a public retraction of my WELL RESEARCHED article because HE THINKS my dosages are too high :@:

It might be helpful for you to ASSESS YOUR OWN KNOWLEDGE before you go to questioning mine :-?

I am sure there are things you know, that I do not, but I promise you it's 'not much' on the subject of these dogs :hatsoff:

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Originally Posted by Nut

Just slightly if you question it in the wrong manner and piss of Jack.

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It's not about "pissing me off"; it's about being an unbelievably rude, presumptuous ass to me, when I have done as much (or more) than any other dogman on the planet to provide the best CRITICAL information on these dogs that can be gathered. It would be a very short list of "names" in this game to jot down those who have taken the time to put out as much good information as I have over the years. If you could even write one name.

It would be helpful to keep that in mind while you're asking me your "questions" :-O

There is a difference between asking questions, clarifying points, and just flat calling a whole body of information "wrong," and demanding a retraction, all based on your imagination, without citing an actual fact to stand on.

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Originally Posted by Nut

My apologies to Jack for bringing it up in that manner. But that was in private and i wouldn't have state it like that if I created the tread.

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Apology accepted and, as I said in private, in the end we're on the same side :mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by Nut

Like i said in my first reply I will be happy if correct information is in the article when everything is said and done, even it remains the same. There's a few tweaks, I learned (understand) something new, and I bet some others did too. Cheers.

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The information was already correct, but adding the dosage range was a good result, I agree.

I just wish the whole thing would have been gone about differently.

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Originally Posted by Nut

There's a few tweaks, I learned (understand) something new, and I bet some others did too. Cheers.

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I am sure everybody here learned something new, including me.
(I bet even ol' Frosty is pilfering some Solu-Medrol right now as we speak :lol:)

Let us both, in the future, remember we're on the same side :cheers:

If I have made any mistakes, it is not because I am a dumbass, or didn't research, etc.

It's because, like anyone, I make a certain amount of errors and omissions too ... but try my best not to make too many :mrgreen:

Jack

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Assumption is especially "the mother of all fuck ups" when assuming a man who's been in dogs about as long as you've been alive is "wrong" ... when in fact you're the one who's wrong

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Well Jack, you better assume something is wrong in case it is, than assume its right in case it's not. Gotta give me that. lol.

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You might be surprised to learn I have thoroughly researched this subject

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Fair enough.

Years in dogs are not always relevant. One could be 40 years in sport and not know anything about breeding. On the other hand this greenhorn done more confirmations shows in a short time than others did in 20+ years and I'm not even referring to you. A certain man who has many years in dogs called us pepsi cola generation in a denigrating way, not long after I met him and won the trophy.
There's people with 20+ years in dogs constantly contradicting each other on various subjects, also happened on this board. Who shall I assume is right?

But agreed with with the rest of what you said. and I already apologized for the way I stated the orginal PM.

:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Nut

Well Jack, you better assume something is wrong in case it is, than assume its right in case it's not. Gotta give me that.

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Can't necessarily agree with that, actually.

If I just fell off the turnip truck, then yeah, maybe question what I say.

But when thousands of people all over the world have used my book to their success, and I have actually done the research, then it is foolish to come at me like you did.

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Originally Posted by Nut

You have got allot of experience on allot of things, but I think this info came from someone else.

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Almost all information comes from someone else.

Doc didn't invent dex, he didn't invent solu-medrol, nor did he pioneer any new scientific research of his own.
Neither did the instructors who taught him. Neither did the instructors who taught them.

The idea that, just because I too learned "from someone else" somehow discredits what I say, or somehow means I don't actually know what TH I am talking about, is absolutely asinine.

You didn't invent pit bulls, you didn't invent treadmills, leashes, the Cajun rules ... nor anything else having to do with these dogs ...
But that doesn't mean you can't, through research and trial, become knowledgeable about these matters. Does it?

So why do you think this doesn't apply to me?

I assure you my own brain works just fine .... far better than 99.99999999% of anyone who's ever called himself a "dogman" in fact :lol:

I guess you must think I am some brainless parrot "repeating information" without understanding what I am saying :lol:

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Originally Posted by Nut

Years in dogs are not always relevant. One could be 40 years in sport and not know anything about breeding. On the other hand this greenhorn done more confirmations shows in a short time than others did in 20+ years and I'm not even referring to you.

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Totally agree with you there.

My years in dogs have been spent schooling & breeding dogs, dogs that have won all over the world ... as well as researching the best methods to do things, and classifying it all together.
These methods have likewise worked all over the world, and there aren't many dogmen who can kiss my ass in any of these areas.

You are becoming proficient in matching dogs, and your record is excellent, so props to you in that regard.

But let me gently remind you that, just because you've won a few matches doesn't mean you have the right to talk to me like "I don't know shit" and you do.

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Originally Posted by Nut

Love it when people call me that. A certain man who has many years in dogs called us pepsi cola generation in a denigrating way, not long after we met and i won the trophy.

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I know who you're talking about, and hats off to you on that. But to compare that guy's ape-brain to mine is a pretty far stretch, don't you think :lol:

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Originally Posted by Nut

But agreed with with the rest of what you said. and I already apologized for the way I stated the orginal PM. You are right
:cheers:

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Okay, and for the record I admire your chutzpah :lol:

And you have had a lot of good suggestions here, so we'll just forget about the whole thing and be glad some good eventually came out of a bad start :D

Jack