Should Showing EXTREME GAMENESS be Part of DOY Candidacy?

Have to disagree.

There are a gazillion dogs that were "game tested" before a match ... who failed to show game in their matches.

Just because a dog had some kind of game test in school is NOT the same thing as a dog showing extraordinary gameness in a match ... anymore than a dog doing well in school is the same thing as winning a match :idea:

To say, "My dog should be considered 'a game match dog' because he was tested in school," can't possibly be taken seriously.

Do you honestly think Ozzie's Homer was "tested as hard in school" as what he had to show in his match? :shocked:

Ummmmm, no.

Again, the minor level what many dogs are willing to go through "in school" does not in any way approach what they might have to face for real in a match ...

Jack

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Have to disagree.

There are a gazillion dogs that were "game tested" before a match ... who failed to show game in their matches.

Just because a dog had some kind of game test in school is NOT the same thing as a dog showing extraordinary gameness in a match ... anymore than a dog doing well in school is the same thing as winning a match :idea:

To say, "My dog should be considered 'a game match dog' because he was tested in school," can't possibly be taken seriously.

Do you honestly think Ozzie's Homer was "tested as hard in school" as what he had to show in his match? :shocked:

Ummmmm, no.

Again, the minor level what many dogs are willing to go through "in school" does not in any way approach what they might have to face for real in a match ...

Jack

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Very true, but as a whole everyone that says that they game test we as a whole think (30 mins) Is that not a game dog that will then be matched depending on his or her level of ability.

Homer displayed DEEP DEEP GAMENESS
Just as so many have showned to be DEAD GAME.
BSK Money bags beat a 4Xw his first time up in under 13mins killed him and popped his shoulder out and lost his next in almost 2hr and lost half his face doing so! That to me is a GAME DOG. Shows very high ability to finish and heart that say your going to have to finish me to win!

Maybe its time to change some of the mind sets that have been taught by the greats of yester year .(with no disrespect) Example the definition of a game dog should be looked at in depth such as we are doing
Example:
GAME DOG- one who shows no quit
DEEP GAME DOG-one who has went past what most matches are over with be it win or lose.
DEAD GAME DOG-one who takes his or hers death trying to win or one who has come close to death trying to win be it in 30 mins or 4hrs but it almost cost them their life.

Its hard to say one is not game just because he or she never had to go three or four hours.I would only be able to say," I dont know how game he or she is but they are a good one".
Also in no way is schooling or a game test going to deem one game or a match dog(in my eyes)but your eyes might tell you he or she is worth a match and in someone else eyes he or she might not be!
I'm merely stating that with the definition in todays and yesterdays of a GAME DOG its any dog that is bred for and or took to the box. (Not in my mind)
Example I remember going to a old timers who happen to be family house and seeing my first bulldog as a child I asked what kinda of dog is that and he answered a GAME DOG, now this dog was never matched and was his sons hunting buddy. Now was he not a game dog, by their definition of that time every bulldog was a GAME DOG and as time went on you heard more or it's GAME BRED.
One more definition that would have to be looked into deeply.

Just as you have stated most pass schooling and a game test only to pull up on show night. Just as some would show their ass off going a hour plus in a tuff roll only to have enough in 30 when its show time.
I say we here look into what we deem as a GAME DOG,GAME PLUG,DEAD GAME DOG,GAME BRED.

What a pole race,huh! Great topic Jack.

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Originally Posted by ragedog10

Here's my thing on the gameness of any match dog. Before he or she has been hooked he or she went thru schooling right? Now that final test is called what?" A GAME TEST" now with that only beinging 30 plus mins ( a rule edge in stone by yester year) then every dog match has show to be GAME! The level of ones gameness is whats to be displayed on party night if you ask me.
Using the thread " picking up game in 10-20 mins" if what most have said, showing the willingness to keep pressing, is showing that you have some level of gameness,Maybe just lacked in abilty that night.

And anyone that has a fighting backround should have the up most respect for a DEEP GAME DOG as we know no matter how much you condition yourself 5-12 three min rounds is LOOONG and if your heart is not in it its night,night! Lol

If you think about it some dogs are game and never have to show how DEEP GAME they are because they have so much ability example GRCH shady Lady five shows with a total time of 37 plus mins she had to have had more time on her in schooling! Now was she a game dog in my mind yes. She past her 30 min game test. Now how deep was her LEVEL of gameness who can ever say unless they seen her pushed to the max.

Now some my disagree with this but if we have a super ability dog who never get put on his back or put behind in schooling with dogs his size then we get something a lilttle bit bigger and super ruff on him or her. Reason being is I want to see his or hers LEVEL of gameness once they are not in control! Im not going to leave them down till they lose a limb as i plan on matching him or her but I wanna see if your a TRUE GAME DOG one that thinks they can win even tho they are getting put behind. Then your corner, if the more he or she gets put behind by this bigger class mate and we get u back to said corner and the all thing they want to do is go back to work because in his or her mind they are going to win!!! Now that there put chills up and down my spain!

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If the objective is to win and you know you have a winner, why "game test" the dog?
Why not just go win.

Heard a guy that is no doubt one of the top 10 of all time say, "I'm not there to find out how game my dog is. I'm here to find out how game yours is."

From a competitive perspective, I get that.

To win is to be game to an extent. To be deep game is something all together different than that. What do you trade? Would you rather win or be game? And yeah, I get it, you'll win more with gameness, but it's a spin on things and something to think about.

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Originally Posted by ragedog10

Very true, but as a whole everyone that says that they game test we as a whole think (30 mins) Is that not a game dog that will then be matched depending on his or her level of ability.

Homer displayed DEEP DEEP GAMENESS
Just as so many have showned to be DEAD GAME.
BSK Money bags beat a 4Xw his first time up in under 13mins killed him and popped his shoulder out and lost his next in almost 2hr and lost half his face doing so! That to me is a GAME DOG. Shows very high ability to finish and heart that say your going to have to finish me to win!

Maybe its time to change some of the mind sets that have been taught by the greats of yester year .(with no disrespect) Example the definition of a game dog should be looked at in depth such as we are doing
Example:
GAME DOG- one who shows no quit
DEEP GAME DOG-one who has went past what most matches are over with be it win or lose.
DEAD GAME DOG-one who takes his or hers death trying to win or one who has come close to death trying to win be it in 30 mins or 4hrs but it almost cost them their life.

Its hard to say one is not game just because he or she never had to go three or four hours.I would only be able to say," I dont know how game he or she is but they are a good one".
Also in no way is schooling or a game test going to deem one game or a match dog(in my eyes)but your eyes might tell you he or she is worth a match and in someone else eyes he or she might not be!
I'm merely stating that with the definition in todays and yesterdays of a GAME DOG its any dog that is bred for and or took to the box. (Not in my mind)
Example I remember going to a old timers who happen to be family house and seeing my first bulldog as a child I asked what kinda of dog is that and he answered a GAME DOG, now this dog was never matched and was his sons hunting buddy. Now was he not a game dog, by their definition of that time every bulldog was a GAME DOG and as time went on you heard more or it's GAME BRED.
One more definition that would have to be looked into deeply.

Just as you have stated most pass schooling and a game test only to pull up on show night. Just as some would show their ass off going a hour plus in a tuff roll only to have enough in 30 when its show time.
I say we here look into what we deem as a GAME DOG,GAME PLUG,DEAD GAME DOG,GAME BRED.

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I would say Homer displayed dead gameness, way beyond deep gameness, and would have stopped 99.9999999% of all dogs on earth his weight.

I also think the refusal to die is a form of gameness :idea:

Some dogs (and strains of dog) go into shock easier than others ... or "lay down" to severe injury and die easier than others ... whereas some dogs just WILL NOT YIELD ... even if hopelessly behind, hopelessly outclassed, hopelessly injured ... they just will not be denied.

That is a form of greatness, over and above mere "athletic ability" ... it is intangible, it is hard to measure ... but WHEN YOU SEE IT ... dogs that do not have this kind of spirit just won't do :idea:

And, very often, dogs like this will "scare the quit out of" most higher-ability (front-running) athletes ...

And it is this spirit which is (and should be) the essence of our breed.

Jack

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

I would say Homer displayed dead gameness, way beyond deep gameness, and would have stopped 99.9999999% of all dogs on earth his weight.

I also think the refusal to die is a form of gameness :idea:

Some dogs (and strains of dog) go into shock easier than others ... or "lay down" to severe injury and die easier than others ... whereas some dogs just WILL NOT YIELD ... even if hopelessly behind, hopelessly outclassed, hopelessly injured ... they just will not be denied.

That is a form of greatness, over and above mere "athletic ability" ... it is intangible, it is hard to measure ... but WHEN YOU SEE IT ... dogs that do not have this kind of spirit just won't do :idea:

And, very often, dogs like this will "scare the quit out of" most higher-ability (front-running) athletes ...

And it is this spirit which is (and should be) the essence of our breed.

Jack

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Jack you wrote what I have been thinking since this discussion started and HOMER was one of the most put up bulldogs I had the pleasure of seeing Oscar just lived 30 min from me. Johnny

I see the YES votes are piling up and creating a little separation. Great topic and a great string of posts.

I voted NO and after reading all the views and thinking a little more on the topic I am still on the NO side of the fence.

Homer and Jeep are great examples. Many have said Jeep could not have taken what he put on Homer. Many have said if it were done at Homer's weight he would have dispatched the great Jeep dog. Some have even said that the actual Jeep dog died that night and the owners stood one in to cash in on the 4 hour-plus history making match.

Those are all assumptions based on hear say and personal opinion. Not seeing the match but reading the reports and accounts I would say Homer was the gamer of the two dogs, and that would be opinion as well. I think the DOY should be about facts and little about perception and the fact is Jeep beat Homer. Regardless of whose camp one sides with, or which dog you would rather breed to, the fact remains one dog won and one dog did not. The winning dog gets the vote for DOY because DOY is about being the best dog for that given time.

The probable PBB DOY by all accounts basically dominated what was put in front of him for the given period of time. The entire big picture of the dog world should not be factored in as it is simply a performance title. Being crossed will he produce? We will see but it does not matter. Is he from a family of performers? Does not matter unless one of them pulled off 7 and is on the ballot as well. Is he a game dog? I would say yes, but on match night it does not matter if he has enough of everything else to win.

Matching dogs is about winning not answering 'gameness' questions. (With maybe the exception of using the first match as a game check so basically it is not 30-45-60 minutes of time that will not count, but that is a different topic altogether). I have seen several dogs I would bet on but would not breed to. I have seen several dogs I would breed to but would not bet on. People that receive "Gamest in Show' titles never left home with that goal in mind. They left home with the intentions of winning. And if they leave home 6-7-8 times and win, they are then candidates for DOY. EWO

EWO, excellent post and I completely see eye to eye with you.

Especially the part about what you would bet on verses what you would breed to. That statement is one to live by in my book :bookworthy:

S_B
(Voted No ;) )

That was well said.

However, I am not sure I can agree that Homer wouldn't get votes for Dog of the Year ... I absolutely think he would (if not even Decade/Lifetime) by the people who saw him go (as well as a general consensus in the fraternity) :idea:

In fact, what if we changed the title to BULLDOG of the Year ... does the word Bulldog not carry the implication of tenacity/deep gameness with it??

Jack

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Originally Posted by BULLDOG ANONYMOUS

What a pole race,huh! Great topic Jack.

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Thank you ... final votes coming soon 8)

What does it mean if, when we go out onto our yard of 20-30 dags, we say .... This one here is a BULLDOG!

Are we saying, This dog is a super-high-ability dog ... only?

Or are we saying, This one here WILL NOT STOP ... or is a WARHORSE ... with an outstanding combination of ability + proven resolve/gameness?

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

That was well said.

However, I am not sure I can agree that Homer wouldn't get votes for Dog of the Year ... I absolutely think he would (if not even Decade/Lifetime) by the people who saw him go.

Also, what if we changed the title to BULLDOG of the Year ... does the word Bulldog not carry the implication of tenacity/deep gameness with it??

Jack

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Jack,

No denying Homer and his gameness. But on that day the better dog won, circumstances, excuses, conditioners, weight aside. Jeep was the dog that beat one of the best during that calendar year. For that accomplishment Jeep would be considered the best.

I think it is a matter of what DOY has meant throughout the years as we all who were subscribers of the SDJ were conditioned to believe. Which was who was the most accomplished dog to be recognized in that calendar year. Or which dog Jack Kelly fancied most. And at that time the gamest dog during each show was awarded GIS.

According to this poll it is a matter of feelings or interpretation. One may feel the dog who displays what the epitome of this breed means, gameness is the best. While another may feel one who can out perform the best at the current time is the best.

I feel the addition of a "Gamest Dog of the Year" award is a good thing. But I think the performance record of the opponent would need to be a consideration which may or may not be fair. As two first time out dogs realistically could display deeper gameness.

Giving this more thought, what would be a determining factor to achieve this award? If you go on time at nearly 4 hours of action who's to say Homer was actually more game than Jeep? Because he was behind, and not brought in correctly? Or could Jeep have been determined more game because of his dominating and winning? It gets down to splitting hairs and what one interprets vs. another.

Something to think about...

S_B

I disagree completely that "the better dog won" between Jeep and Homer ...

I can think of a lot of great dogs who lost only because their weight wasn't right, they were brought in underweight/bad condition, etc.

That said, I very much do agree with the general idea of DOY being a title of Most Accomplished dog of the year ...

However, isn't showing extreme, 100% dead gameness an "accomplishment" ... arguably even the most important accomplishment?

Is winning/losing the only relevant criteria?

Jack

PS: You didn't answer my question about the title BULLDOG of the Year ... if that has an added implication of "proven gameness" to it?

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

I disagree completely that "the better dog won" between Jeep and Homer ...

I can think of a lot of great dogs who lost only because their weight wasn't right, they were brought in underweight/bad condition, etc.

That said, I very much do agree with the general idea of DOY being a title of Most Accomplished dog of the year ... however, isn't showing extreme, 100% dead gameness an accomplishment ... arguably even the most important accomplishment?

Jack

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yes

Let me put it another way:

Which is the most difficult/important thing for any dog to prove it can do:

1) Win a match where the animal is more physically gifted than its foe?

or

2) Fight a toe-to-toe, back-and-forth fight, with 100% determination, until the last breath of life escapes it?

To which scenario should our highest honors be given to a bulldog?

Jack

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Originally Posted by MISTER

Gameness is something we all want our dogs to have but many times a dog that shows extreme gameness is on the losing side of the contest. Some do show that gameness and come out the winner and either case are awarded GIS. Doy is reserved to that special animal who shows that ability to not really get put behind and win convincingly in each and every contest such as the Titere's, The Awesome Beasts, the Barracudas. Doy is reserved for those truly special animals who IMO don't have to show extreme gameness

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Well said Mister

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

I disagree completely that "the better dog won" between Jeep and Homer ...

I can think of a lot of great dogs who lost only because their weight wasn't right, they were brought in underweight/bad condition, etc.

That said, I very much do agree with the general idea of DOY being a title of Most Accomplished dog of the year ...

However, isn't showing extreme, 100% dead gameness an "accomplishment" ... arguably even the most important accomplishment?

Is winning/losing the only relevant criteria?

Jack

PS: You didn't answer my question about the title BULLDOG of the Year ... if that has an added implication of "proven gameness" to it?

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Homer should have never met Jeep, but he did and he lost.

That is another argument in of itself, managers of fighters making poor decisions.

As far as extreme gameness being an accomplishment, I don't know if I'd say that necessarily as an accomplishment is defined as a performance. Does one perform gameness or display it?

To answer the question of "Bulldog" of the year...I'll say it's splitting hairs or playing into ones interpretation vs. anothers.

I believe we are both right in our own minds, I don't think there is an absolute answer therfore it is all subjective.

S_B

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Let me put it another way:

Which is the most difficult/important thing for any dog to prove it can do:

1) Win a match where the animal is more physically gifted than its foe?

or

2) Fight a toe-to-toe, back-and-forth fight, with 100% determination, until the last breath of life escapes it?

To which scenario should our highest honors be given to a bulldog?

Jack

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Put this way #2 all day everyday!

What about a dog who does just enough to win in each show? Meaning the better it's opponent is the better they are?

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Originally Posted by S_B

I believe we are both right in our own minds, I don't think there is an absolute answer therfore it is all subjective.
S_B

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I think you're right too ... for the reasons you state ...

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Originally Posted by S_B

Put this way #2 all day everyday!

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However, this is also right ... and therein lies The Paradox of Truth :lol:

But that is what is important to an individual Jack.

When you had a magazine devoted to the sport of dog fighting. One which reported shows and awarded certificates to the accomplishments of its winners. And created the DOY award it was those principles and accomplishments which were taken into consideration. Not which dog was #2 on that list.

How can we even begin to change what this award means? These dogs are bred to do #2, many of them do this. It is the elite few who accomplish what GR CH TITERE 7XW did who truly go above and beyond. There is no denying he won 7 and beat 7 other highly accomplished challengers.

Explain to me how one can determine who displayed the utter most gameness in a single show during a single year when so many other bulldogs were likely to take their death as well?

S_B

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

I think you're right too ... for the reasons you state ...





However, this is also right ... and therein lies The Paradox of Truth :lol:

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Damn...I should have quoted this in my last post! Haha

I would like to say that this has been one of the most thought provoking threads to date on this board that I feel lucky to participate in. I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer to this poll how it was worded and presented by Jack. In a mere 6 days it has been viewed over 1,500 times with over 140 replies, that's incredible.

Everyone who contributed really put thought into their answers and that is what sets the members apart here verses other places. This is a community of folks who are obviously dedicated to this breed and it shows. We will never all agree but when we can come together and put our thoughts out there for all to see and criticize and agree to disagree without name calling and fights, that is a good thing.

Jack I'm proud of you for all the life long accomplishments you have achieved both on the scene and off the scene with these dogs. This database is becoming a front runner for you imo. I don't know you personally, and although you can be difficult at times ;) your dedication can not be denied. That deserves an award in itself.


:cheers:
S_B

LMAO well, first of all, I think stubbornness is a pervasive trait in a legit dogman :D

But thank you for your opinion ... I definitely got bit to the bone by "the bulldog bug" :lol:

I also have never stopped in my quest for trying to understand/appreciate all aspects of these dogs, for which this Database was yet another attempt to improve on already-existing strengths of one site, and upgrade them to a new level.

I also think that, if we work out the kinks, and continue to streamline this place, that (over time) it will prove to be the ultimate online resource for bulldog owners worldwide, I really do :idea:

Cheers back :cheers: