Face Dog = Head Dog?

Good post yourself EWO.

And yes, many times the owner loses for his dog, but sometime the overall better dog can lose too.

For example, Ken Norton beat Ali. Then Ali barely beat Norton on a return match.

For whatever reason, Ali just had trouble with Norton ... but yet Norton got devastated by Foreman, who lost to Ali.

Historically, Ali is 10x the fighter Norton ever dreamed to be ... and toyed with fighters who KO'd Norton ... yet, style-wise, Ali just struggled with Norton.

On and on it goes ...

Jack

So, for example, let's take Garner's Ch. Chinaman. They said he "had the mouth of an alligator. He was very clever. He would outsmart slick ear and nose dogs and cur them out. He would finish straight-ahead dogs even faster. Swapping-out was his game." Would it be fair to say he just never met the right "slick ear or nose dog" that was able to take his measure? That there may have been such a dog out there but they just never matched into each other? To read the accounts, you'd think Chinaman was an unstoppable juggernaut.

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Originally Posted by STA8541

So, for example, let's take Garner's Ch. Chinaman. They said he "had the mouth of an alligator. He was very clever. He would outsmart slick ear and nose dogs and cur them out. He would finish straight-ahead dogs even faster. Swapping-out was his game."

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Correction: Chinaman out-smarted the mediocre ear/nose dogs they put on him ... but Chinaman never the faced anything close to the best head dogs that ever lived.

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Originally Posted by STA8541

Would it be fair to say he just never met the right "slick ear or nose dog" that was able to take his measure?

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Exactly right.

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Originally Posted by STA8541

To read the accounts, you'd think Chinaman was an unstoppable juggernaut.

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"You" might think that, but I don't.

The first thing you will learn is people over-exaggerate everything.

The second thing you learn is NO dog is "unbeatable," even legitimately great dogs.

No matter how good any dog is, there are dogs who either (1) are still overall better animals or who (2) have styles that are rough for them.

Some dogs retire before they are beaten, but that doesn't mean they were unbeatable.

Chinaman was a great dog, no doubt, but there are dogs that would kill Chinaman (that he never faced), same as there are dogs that would out-slick him (that he never faced).

The only thing that can correctly be said of Chinaman was, of the dogs he was put with, none beat him, but that doesn't give Chinaman (or any dog) an "unbeatable" medallion against every dog that ever walked the earth.

I mean, all anyone has to do is use their head and think for a moment.

Objectively, record- and quality-of-opposition-wise, what Chinaman accomplished (at best) was middle-of-the-road, compared to a dog like Ch Silver and even some of his opponents.

I am sure Chinaman could have beaten his share of greats, but there are plenty of all-time-greats who would likewise beat him.

Anyone who says different is a fanboy, not a dogman.

Jack

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Correction: Chinaman out-smarted the mediocre ear/nose dogs they put on him ... but Chinaman never the faced anything close to the best head dogs that ever lived.

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Fair enough.

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"You" might think that, but I don't.

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I was just getting at the tenor of the accounts; I had a strong suspicion he could be whipped, which is why it threw up a red flag for me & I sought out instruction & experienced opinion.

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The first thing you will learn is people over-exaggerate everything.

The second thing you learn is NO dog is "unbeatable," even legitimately great dogs.

No matter how good any dog is, there are dogs who either (1) are still overall better animals or who (2) have styles that are rough for them.

Some dogs retire before they are beaten, but that doesn't mean they were unbeatable.

Chinaman was a great dog, no doubt, but there are dogs that would kill Chinaman (that he never faced), same as there are dogs that would out-slick him (that he never faced).

The only thing that can correctly be said of Chinaman was, of the dogs he was put with, none beat him, but that doesn't give Chinaman (or any dog) an "unbeatable" medallion against every dog that ever walked the earth.

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Fair enough.

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Objectively, record- and quality-of-opposition-wise, what Chinaman accomplished (at best) was middle-of-the-road, compared to a dog like Ch Silver and even some of his opponents.

I am sure Chinaman could have beaten his share of greats, but there are plenty of all-time-greats who would likewise beat him.

Anyone who says different is a fanboy, not a dogman.

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Never knew there were fanboys in the dog game. Thanks for the tip. And thank you for the thoughtful & detailed reply, Jack. Helps a lot.

Styles makes a fight, and a dog can ( just like his human fighting counterpart ) struggle with a certain style while mopping the floor with others who are considered greats. The Ali-Norton-Foreman example is spot on. In history they would be ranked Ali, Foreman then Norton. But Norton gave Ali fits, but could not deal with Foreman who Ali beat. As Foreman has often said, "I was the dope in the rope-a-dope". Basically it is why we play the game. The Patriots were 18-0 and the Giants barely even made the playoffs. On that given Sunday (just happened to be Super Bowl Sunday) the Giants presented all kinds of match-up problems. Solid defense, pressure the quarterback and run the ball. The Patriots could not score with Brady and Co. on the sidelines.

Dogs no different. Chinaman no different. Retiring undefeated is a lot different than being undefeatable. EWO

I am a big boxing fan, EWO, so I hear you on styles making fights. Foreman surely was a dope that night in Zaire, lol. I also used to love football very much & so completely understand the Giants whipping the Pats that day...I still have trouble believing it happened! Getting Brady to move his feet definitely helped. I am going to try to remember some of Jack's advice as well, that people in the game tend to overexaggerate any particular dog's awesomeness. A grain of salt never hurt anybody.

Football talk relegated to here :mrgreen:

I don't think we've seen the baddest of the bad in any particular arena. Only those that have actually entered the arena.
There's a paddle for everyone's ass.
You can only objectively judge competitors, or anything else, on what they did or turned down to take on. Not what they could not possibly do.

just saw a european match with a dog named chika 6xw that is the kinda head face dog i like she would fight th ear nose and skull untill she had an opening for the throat she would also grab the upper leg /shoulder if they gave it to her to throw the opponent to the ground and then go straight into the throat