Finishers

My concept of what a finisher is has to do with the will of the dog to finish the race weather he is ahead or behind. Is that moment when the dog digs deep and decides this ends now. There are hard biting dogs with the capacity to finish a race with one hold True but that does not qualify him to be called a finisher. I have seen many hard biting dogs that when they get outsmart and frustrated they simply fade away and don't have the WILL to finish it even when they have the CAPACITY to finish.

It is very very rare to see a dog finish the race with one hold and even two holds. If I was to calculate the percentage of dogs that I have seen in the last 23 years finishing the race with just one or two holds, it will be less than 1%. Actually, I have seen more dogs that impose their will to win than dogs finishing a race with 1 or 2 holds.

And then, How many times does a dog needs to do this to be consider a finisher? 1, 2 all the time?
If he does it one time and never again, Is he a finisher?

In the other hand, I have seen average biting dogs that were either even, behind or ahead at a certain point of the race that impose their will and finish the race quickly weather that is at 10 minutes, 1 hour or 3 hours.

If in your lifetime you ever found a dog that can finish a race with one or two holds consistently, try hard to get it.....That's an ACE....

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Originally Posted by StoneCity

My concept of what a finisher is has to do with the will of the dog to finish the race weather he is ahead or behind. Is that moment when the dog digs deep and decides this ends now. There are hard biting dogs with the capacity to finish a race with one hold True but that does not qualify him to be called a finisher. I have seen many hard biting dogs that when they get outsmart and frustrated they simply fade away and don't have the WILL to finish it even when they have the CAPACITY to finish.

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First of all, thank you for joining and welcome aboard, it is very nice to have you here.

Regarding what you describe as a finisher, I understand what you're saying, and I agree dogs who do not fade away and continuously try to win display the key trait of a truly good dog. However, I myself would call a dog like you described a "game" finisher, with gameness being the will to win no matter what ... while another dog who "can" finish ... but who fades away ... would be just a dangerous cur to my way of thinking. (Not saying my way of thinking is right, this is just how I view things.)

I also don't think mouth and finish are the same. For example, I have seen devastating dogs that would break legs and crush shoulders, these dogs could cripple a dog if they got on him ... but yet they would not go to kill spots (throat/kidneys/gut). And (on the other side) I have seen average-mouth dogs go for nothing but deep holds in the throat, or in the kidneys, that I would say are looking to finish their opponent, not just to brawl him.

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Originally Posted by StoneCity

It is very very rare to see a dog finish the race with one hold and even two holds. If I was to calculate the percentage of dogs that I have seen in the last 23 years finishing the race with just one or two holds, it will be less than 1%. Actually, I have seen more dogs that impose their will to win than dogs finishing a race with 1 or 2 holds.

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I agree with you. Of all the dogs I have ever owned in my life during the same amount of years, I have only had 3 who could do this ever, which would be less than 1%.

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Originally Posted by StoneCity

And then, How many times does a dog needs to do this to be consider a finisher? 1, 2 all the time?
If he does it one time and never again, Is he a finisher?

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That is an extremely important distinction you just made. If a dog does it "once," but never again, then I would say he "finished" one, but he never replicated the effort. However, if every single time that dog gets put in there he is looking for that spot, then his intent is to finish ... which makes him a finisher at heart to me ... but how often he is able to get there determines his TALENT at accomplishing his goal. If he has no talent, and can't get his spots, then he may never get there when facing more talented dogs who can keep him out and break him down. However, if he is supremely talented at getting to his spots, then at some point he will get there and immediately try to close the deal.

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Originally Posted by StoneCity

If in your lifetime you ever found a dog that can finish a race with one or two holds consistently, try hard to get it.....That's an ACE....

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I agree with you 100%.

Jack


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I have owned several bulldogs that have all around skills but never finished a hog. I have personally seen a true finisher and she did it in 7 minutes. She was scatter bred so I am not sure what blood the finishing came from.

Norris' Coaltrain smart throat hunter. Start at head and find throat, no coming out. Love my bitch.

Jack,

First of all, Thanks for creating the Forum....It was about time we have a serious forum to discuss serious topics about our dogs.

Congratulations you are doing a good job.

I guess we both share valid points using different approach to the same situation. We had 2 examples of what you are describing;

This is for historical purposes only!!!

Gr Ch Yellow Buck - His second time out at release your dogs went to the back and broke a main line and at 7 min it was over right then and there in the square. Only one hold.

Ch. Jesse James Rodz - At release your dogs they met in the middle trying to get position at 8 minutes Jesse James went underneath got a hold of chest push up one hold and at 18 min it was over.

Now, Did they ever did it again? No. This is very difficult almost impossible to accomplish.
Did I consider them to be finishers? Yes, but not because of those 2 incidents but because in other situations when in a long race with a real tough opponent at one point they just stand up and finish the race with one final decisive hold.

Would I love to have a dog that can finish races with one hold? Of course, I will brake my piggy bank to get it.

Would I probably end up with a dangerous cur like you say? Most likely.

So Choose Wisely........

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Originally Posted by StoneCity

Jack,
First of all, Thanks for creating the Forum....It was about time we have a serious forum to discuss serious topics about our dogs.
Congratulations you are doing a good job.

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You're welcome, and thank you too for the participation and perspective.

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Originally Posted by StoneCity

Jack,
I guess we both share valid points using different approach to the same situation. We had 2 examples of what you are describing;
This is for historical purposes only!!!

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Indeed!

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Originally Posted by StoneCity

Jack,
Gr Ch Yellow Buck - His second time out at release your dogs went to the back and broke a main line and at 7 min it was over right then and there in the square. Only one hold.
Ch. Jesse James Rodz - At release your dogs they met in the middle trying to get position at 8 minutes Jesse James went underneath got a hold of chest push up one hold and at 18 min it was over.
Now, Did they ever did it again? No. This is very difficult almost impossible to accomplish.
Did I consider them to be finishers? Yes, but not because of those 2 incidents but because in other situations when in a long race with a real tough opponent at one point they just stand up and finish the race with one final decisive hold.

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Thank you for sharing your experiences with two great dogs who possessed this trait. This illustrates the point that not every finisher (even at the highest level) will be able to "finish early" (or even at all) because the other factior in the equation is the quality of opposition. Just as a KO artist in boxing can easily smoke lesser foes, when he moves up in class he will not be able to hit truly skilled fighters as often (or as cleanly) as he can hit lesser men. And so it is in dogs.

Even a stone cold finisher who blows through lesser foes, if he gets on another great dog, is simply not going to be able to have his way like he did with something not at his level. And here is where the other important aspect (what I call extreme gameness and what you call true finish) comes into play, which is the will to keep after it as long as they have to. The fact that both of your great dogs were extended the distance, and finally finished when they had the opportunity, doesn't mean they weren't finishers, far from it. It only means that their opponents were very high-caliber dogs also, that were just too good to be blown through. (Even Tornado and Melonhead had to go 2 hours when they met the right dogs.) So, very good point, even a brutal finisher is going to have to go the distance if he meets something else good enough.

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Originally Posted by StoneCity

Jack,
Would I love to have a dog that can finish races with one hold? Of course, I will brake my piggy bank to get it.
Would I probably end up with a dangerous cur like you say? Most likely.
So Choose Wisely........

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Agreed!

Finish is a trait I am very much hoping to cultivate, but I would never choose this trait "instead" of World Class Staying Power ... I am merely trying to add this trait of consistent finish to the staying power my dogs are known for.

Cheers,

Jack

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When I speak of finish I'm speaking about those dogs with the intent to kill. Going to the throat/kidney/gut. Some dogs just beat you up and bang it out, some style on you, but then there's the ones that just want to kill you and get to the kill spots as soon as the opportunity present itself. This is the trait I'm talking about.

A real finisher usually is very deliberate about it. They position themselves in such a way as to lay out their oppoent just right, or come underneath them just right when it is time. You can watch them set it up. I have seen plenty try to set it up and then not have the bite or drive to make it happen. I have seen others who know how to get ahead, and then when it is time they just do not have the foggiest idea what to do, other than shake or root a little bit perhaps, typically in flurries. The real finisher has spent every minute of the show waiting for the two spots to open up. It is rare, but a fantastic trait to strive for.

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Originally Posted by TFX

A real finisher usually is very deliberate about it. They position themselves in such a way as to lay out their oppoent just right, or come underneath them just right when it is time. You can watch them set it up. I have seen plenty try to set it up and then not have the bite or drive to make it happen. I have seen others who know how to get ahead, and then when it is time they just do not have the foggiest idea what to do, other than shake or root a little bit perhaps, typically in flurries. The real finisher has spent every minute of the show waiting for the two spots to open up. It is rare, but a fantastic trait to strive for.

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I have to agree and when I saw it. It wasn't till it was over and I played it back that I realize how smooth it was. Deliberate is a good description. Some may not be the fast or hardest mouthed but know where they want to be and will pick you apart getting there. Also most times as said before its not that many holds and once they get there. It's so deep and sincere a jackhammer ain getting them out.

Very good assessment and description of a finisher.

I agree, it is no accident when they get there, and I likewise agree it is a good trait to strive for.

The dogs I have considered to be true finishers, once they hit that spot, it was a wrap ... like the other dog was an "air raft" that just got deflated.

Jack