Amazing info thanks to all contributing.
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Amazing info thanks to all contributing.
In case I miss something, 1 kg of water = 1 lt = 4 glasses of almost 9 oz.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
170oz X 28.35gr = 4.819,5gr or almost 5 lt or 20 glasses of water per day, while everybody talks of a minimum of 8 glasses etc. Unless someone is a serious athlete or lives in a hot environment or naturally drinks a lot of water, isn't this a bit too much? the 10.5 lb I mean. Even including beverages, coffee etc.
Taso, the thread is revolving around the amount of water given to a dog in keep who is an athlete. So you have to keep it within that context.
Taso, 1 oz (30 ml) of water per 1 lb of bodyweight is the general consensus for the ideal amount of water most mammals require per day. It has nothing to do with athletics, it has to do with a general consensus as to optimal health. Most people fall short of this ideal in their diet, and (when you have a bunch of dogs on the yard) it is any man's guess as to what his dogs are/are not actually drinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by tasoschatz
The 1 oz-per-pound rule is likewise an effective ideal for giving IV fluids, as for example a 40-lb dog would require 40 oz (1200ml) of ringers over a day's time. However, even with administering ringers, it is NOT generally advisable to dump the whole bag (bolus dose) into the animal at once, unless it is severely dehydrated and/or has hypovolemic shock, etc. Ideally, a drip-rate is established, whereby the animal gets his full 1200 ml by IV drip over the course of a 24-hour period.
In the same fashion, ideally a dog/person should be drinking his required amount of water throughout the course of the day, not in one setting, and especially not while eating his only meal. (This would be my opinion). I do agree that an athlete is going to require more than the average amount of water per day, especially after his workout.
That said, I believe those who practice the strategy of giving their dogs an entire 30ml/lb of water at one setting, do so only because they can't really monitor their dog's drinking all day, and/or because it is just more convenient to dump-in the entire required amount of water with the feed at one setting. However, I also recognize the fact that, right after a hard workout, a dog is going to have lost a lot of water because of the work, and I can see the need to replace this water. However, that said, I still believe that giving the animal its entire day's supply of water after the work is overkill, and is not something I would personally do. Not saying this practice can't or hasn't "worked" (or been adequate), but at this point I highly doubt that (if the practice were measured and studied) it would be considered the optimal way to go.
Another thing to remember about hard work is also the loss of electrolytes, so IMO giving a dog a pint or two of Pedialyte after the work would supply a more equable amount of fluid replacement (rather than an overkill amount), and that Pedialyte would likewise address the electrolyte issue. If this was then followed by feeding the dog his meal, about an hour later, this might prove to be more effective. But this is just conjecture.
Jack
Just to be on the safe side i figure its best to split up the water. 40 % after the workout, and 60 % 12 before the workout. Together with the water in the raw food he would still get more then 50 % after the workout. Let's not forget a 40 lbs dog would eat around 700-1000gram of raw a day which already contains around 400-500 ML water.
That is exactly right.
Raw meat is already 70% water, so 1 lb (16 oz) of meat is actually 11.2 oz (336 ml) of water. This is exactly why raw-fed dogs don't bother to drink alot of water compared to kibble-fed dogs.
It might be worthwhile to actually measure a dog's weight, to the ounce, before the work ... and then measure his weight, to the ounce, after the work ... and get a firm handle on exactly how many ounces are being lost due to the work (and thus need to be replaced after the work) :idea:
Jack
Dogs lose more water than electrolytes, and if you feed an hour after workout, you lose an optimal window for the reuptake of glycogen. Adding some pedialyte probably isn't a bad idea, but I would have to look more into what electrolytes dogs lose in order to formulate a plan of action for that.
I have never measured a dog's weight to the ounce before or after as I don't have a digital scale. I have measured dogs weight before/after though in 1/4lb increments. The hardest working dog I've ever had lost 3lbs during each workout at the peak point of his keep. He was a 40lb dog. He was getting 40oz of water, and he was getting more than 2lbs of feed everyday at that point.
Dogs in a keep, or at any time, won't drink enough water, on their own, to keep themselves properly hydrated. They drink to satiate thirst not to stay properly hydrated, and there is a big difference between the two. I personally don't know if all the water in their meal is optimal or not. I do know it works better than just allowing the dog to drink on it's own when it gets ready. There are too many variables to go along with that.
R2L, if you're going to split the water, the dog is going to need more than the allotted 40% after the work as that is when he's going to need the water the most. He's not going to need it the most 12 hours later. Maybe I'll try that next time to see how it all works out, though I don't think it will make any significant or noticeable difference.
Of course they lose more water than electrolytes; electrolytes weigh next to nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
Good point about the glycogen, although the flipside is that same hour window is when they burn fat if they don't get the glycogen ...
Wow, 3 lb of weight is a bunch; that is 48 oz of weight. I wonder if it would be a good idea give the water + electrolytes right after the work, wait an hour for processing, and then give the meal? You could even add the minor carb replacement that dogs need during that window (if you're not worried about fat loss). Just thinking out loud here, but this strategy might address all issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
I think dogs WILL drink enough to keep themselves hydrated ... this is why (after the work) dogs will drink their asses off, and will continue to do so until they get re-hydrated. The problem, really, is OVER-drinking if they're hot and tired and the conditioner's dilemma of monitoring weight/intake, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
In point of fact, I actually believe that the critical weighing of the dog, before and after the work, pretty much signifies exactly how much they have lost during the work. But because they're burning calories, electrolytes, fluids, etc. it's hard to say exactly how much is water only, but I think adding Pedialyte rather than straight water is a better idea (in the same fashion that running a bag of saline is superior to just replenishing water).
Interesting discussion and observations.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
If I were active, I would personally be trying to replace exactly the amount of weight lost after the work, or thereabouts, and then I would allow enough time for the replenished fluids (Pedialyte or equivalent) to dissipate before feeding. I don't think I would lump both that much water/fluid and his full meal all together at the same time myself.
Maybe you, or someone else, could provide some feedback on this eventually :)
Jack
About the 1 hour after workout optimal window glycogen replenish etc, ok about humans I know, glucose etc, but, about dogs that most say that the preffered energy source is fat, which in humans means ketones in absence of carbs, what do you feed that would get in there in less than an hour? and with what timing?
By giving a small amount of maltodextrin or similar, within a half hour of the workout you are only replacing muscle glycogen, not liver glycogen and that helps the dog to continue to burn fat as well as prevent muscle scavenging.