"TESTED HARD" --- What Does That Mean?

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Originally Posted by BIGFLA73

HOW WOULD YOU FIND OUT "FOR YOURSELF" IF YOU SHOULD CULL OR USE IF NOT FOR A HARD TEST?

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What do I personally do?

I see if the dog has the style, the skills, the smarts, and the intensity that I have come to recognize as "the stamp" of the good dogs in my line ... and if they never once show any sign of diminished interest. Me personally, if a dog slacks-off at all, I lose confidence in the dog right there and have no more interest in the animal, and don't need to see things play-out any further: I've already made up my mind I don't want that dog.

I do understand that dogs get tired, but tired dogs can still exhibit single-minded purpose and intensity, even while they're tired, and if I ever see them lose "that" then I want no part of the animal. And I don't have to beat them all to hell to see it (or its lack) :)

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Originally Posted by bolero

that may be true, but gameness is what sets this breed apart, so what he may do the next time out is irrelevant, if they show game when you ask then that is all that need to be done from that point you decide whether to take them out again or be satisfied without you saw

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I agree with you. I absolutely believe gameness is the #1 trait in these dogs, and I have repeatedly sought (and produced) extreme gameness, not just in single individuals but in making sure they come from high-percentage litters.

My point is not to suggest people not evaluate their animals, they should! My point is to suggest that saying a dog is "tested hard" is not necessarily as meaningful as people like to think it is.

I also believe that a dog who shows extreme gameness to one dog, might not show anywhere near that level of gameness to another dog ... based on dealing with levels of skill/style that they've never seen before.

I guess what I am saying is the expression "tested hard" means different things out of different mouths. It is only an IDEA, but it is not an absolutely definitive statement.

What I was trying to do was have people think about all of the given variables that can (and do) happen, within different situations.

Jack


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[quote=bolero]

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

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Originally Posted by "H.B.K.":5jsspz6o

why isnt there a such thing as a hard tested hound? If u put ur hound in every situation duriing schooling and test the gameness as much as u can without losing the hound then ur testing hard. Example u taking ur hound and take him up-hill 5 lbs with a good skilled dog and they go 35 min. and the smaller dog starts to piss on hisself and starts the process of checking out and through all that once seperated said hound scratches when there seems no way he could make it thats a hard tested hound. Now the true test is always the match if u have a match quality hound, but a hound can be severely tested hard through school and if ur not testing hard in school how could u ever know if there worthy of a bet? I'm not that keen to knowing how talented, or game a hound is without testing HARD!!!

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I completely understand and respect the point you're making, H.B.K.

What I was getting at is there are no certainties in these dogs ... and a dog that was "hard-tested" can still quit when he's matched ... and a dog that "showed gameness" in his last hard match, can still quit his next time out ... therefore, ultimately, being "tested hard" is not a certification for anything.

Jack

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that may be true, but gameness is what sets this breed apart, so what he may do the next time out is irrelevant, if they show game when you ask then that is all that need to be done from that point you decide whether to take them out again or be satisfied without you saw[/quote:5jsspz6o]



That is what im saying regardless of the future if schooled hard and right and they stay true there is no future there is only the now. Without question the true test is when u compete under contracted conditions but a hound can deff be hard tested in a hard schooling

H.B.K some good responses, i have a question though, if the ultimate test is the show, why do you need to have kill em in school? And if every time you taking something out of that animal, just as every boxing round takes something out of that boxer why kill in sparring then have nothing for show time? You gave an example of a test, pushing 5lbs for 35 mins, could you not see what you needed 15 mins prior? Normally if a dog off the chain, after a good 15 mins is starting to get tired a lil bit and if you placing them on a good one that is pressing and bringing action for 20 mins is that not enough to know if you can place a bet? I know a few people who dont show their bitches but instead basically "skull drag" their bitches and i ask them every time does that make her a better producer and did she not show enough heart befor she had to basically crawl across? I just dont see point in taking that much out of a hound whether preparing for show or brood pen.. Either it has the qualities you appreciate or it doesnt..

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Originally Posted by CitySwamp

H.B.K some good responses, i have a question though, if the ultimate test is the show, why do you need to have kill em in school? And if every time you taking something out of that animal, just as every boxing round takes something out of that boxer why kill in sparring then have nothing for show time? You gave an example of a test, pushing 5lbs for 35 mins, could you not see what you needed 15 mins prior? Normally if a dog off the chain, after a good 15 mins is starting to get tired a lil bit and if you placing them on a good one that is pressing and bringing action for 20 mins is that not enough to know if you can place a bet? I know a few people who dont show their bitches but instead basically "skull drag" their bitches and i ask them every time does that make her a better producer and did she not show enough heart befor she had to basically crawl across? I just dont see point in taking that much out of a hound whether preparing for show or brood pen.. Either it has the qualities you appreciate or it doesnt..

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I think it dpends on the hound and what there showing throughout the contest. Ive seen hounds go for 15 min and knew there was something special in a hound, and other times it took that 35 min. I must say 15 min in no way is a game test and could never bring myself to take one to the box regardless how good they r in school on 15 min rolls. I understand the wear and tare hounds take in rolls so i dont believe in 3 and 4 rolls, give me a good 20 min first time and then a real hard game test and if all looks according then box time. In that hard game test do i want to take them to the brink of death NO, but if they make it throough it scratching then im pretty confident that scratching isnt goiing to be my problem. If i do take them there then its on me to make sure they make it back strong. And ur right i can see those qualities when it comes to ability, mouth, and intellegance in 15 20 min but i cant judge a hounds heart in that time and above all else gameness is most important!!! I also hear a lot that every dog will quit and that is a crook!!! It's a slap in the face to the hounds that have given there lives scratching. I have heard well they could of quit on the next scratch and all that is is a terrible injustice to that dg dogs heart. This was a dg dog who gave all she had and when no one else thought she could or would she made one of the gamest scratches u wcould ever see and gave her life doing it. http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=342693

All in all every dogman has different criterias and different ways of schooling there hounds and thats what makes compition that much better.

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Originally Posted by CitySwamp

H.B.K some good responses, i have a question though, if the ultimate test is the show, why do you need to have kill em in school? And if every time you taking something out of that animal, just as every boxing round takes something out of that boxer why kill in sparring then have nothing for show time? You gave an example of a test, pushing 5lbs for 35 mins, could you not see what you needed 15 mins prior? Normally if a dog off the chain, after a good 15 mins is starting to get tired a lil bit and if you placing them on a good one that is pressing and bringing action for 20 mins is that not enough to know if you can place a bet? I know a few people who dont show their bitches but instead basically "skull drag" their bitches and i ask them every time does that make her a better producer and did she not show enough heart befor she had to basically crawl across? I just dont see point in taking that much out of a hound whether preparing for show or brood pen.. Either it has the qualities you appreciate or it doesnt..

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it depends what you want i might have a do that is very well rounded and not have much interest in matching him because he is so damn good and to be honest i really could care less if he is a one time winner or a gr ch as long as i lnow he is above average in every area, now in order for me to know this i would of had to seen some good dogs in my day to know my evaluations are correct, so now i know my dog is good but is he game so i test him uphill off the chain but he is in good health and in decent shape, i do this to see if he is what i want in a bulldog so he is loosing the whole time but never loses interest and scratches when asked now that dog is retired to stud, the match is not the true test for the dog the match is the true test for the conditioner, when conditioning comes into play it is not just the dog against the other dog it i is dogman vs dogman

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Originally Posted by bolero

it depends what you want i might have a do that is very well rounded and not have much interest in matching him because he is so damn good and to be honest i really could care less if he is a one time winner or a gr ch as long as i lnow he is above average in every area, now in order for me to know this i would of had to seen some good dogs in my day to know my evaluations are correct, so now i know my dog is good but is he game so i test him uphill off the chain but he is in good health and in decent shape, i do this to see if he is what i want in a bulldog so he is loosing the whole time but never loses interest and scratches when asked now that dog is retired to stud, the match is not the true test for the dog the match is the true test for the conditioner, when conditioning comes into play it is not just the dog against the other dog it i is dogman vs dogman

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:idea:

i agree one can be tested hard in school, and thats the post. but for me its all about getting to the box and bringing a good dog in the best shape i can put them in. i love putting the work in to see the transformation and theres nothing better then to see 2 conditioned athletes perform in the square.

Good thread fellas,

Bolero i always believed the test was the show to see who has best at that weight. I mean the handler is always a play bc just like show where it's about conditioner even a roll the handler plays major role, his overall care, the hound physical condition, the health, is hound not worked but gets good exercise and things which handler controls even when not showing.. Just as show handler has to bring in a parasite free hound in good shape.. Handlers always play a role from womb to the tomb..

Nine times out of ten, the show isn't really a test of any magnitude. As Jack has pointed out in other instances, most shows average out to about 45 to 50 minutes. Most shows are decided by one dog that is blatantly better than the other, so in that aspect, the show isn't a test of anything aside from one person giving their money to another.

What Bolero said rings true the most for me personally. There have been other valid points throughout this thread. Your eye for a dog, your level of experience, and your ability to know quality as opposed to the next person truly determines what hard tested means.

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Originally Posted by Crofab

Nine times out of ten, the show isn't really a test of any magnitude. As Jack has pointed out in other instances, most shows average out to about 45 to 50 minutes. Most shows are decided by one dog that is blatantly better than the other, so in that aspect, the show isn't a test of anything aside from one person giving their money to another.

What Bolero said rings true the most for me personally. There have been other valid points throughout this thread. Your eye for a dog, your level of experience, and your ability to know quality as opposed to the next person truly determines what hard tested means.

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So 35 mins is hard test with two dogs with no work in them but 40-50 mins of two conditioned hounds going full speed with the shape in them to do it is no test? Dont that kind of contradict

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Originally Posted by CitySwamp

So 35 mins is hard test with two dogs with no work in them but 40-50 mins of two conditioned hounds going full speed with the shape in them to do it is no test? Dont that kind of contradict

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I think what Crofab means is that, in an actual game test, you're specifically selecting an animal that will put your dog behind and keep him there ... which IS a test of his willpower ... whereas oftentimes, in a match, your dog may completely dominate the other dog and so it's no test at all: he just defeats a dog.

Jack

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

I think what Crofab means is that, in an actual game test, you're specifically selecting an animal that will put your dog behind and keep him there ... which IS a test of his willpower ... whereas oftentimes, in a match, your dog may completely dominate the other dog and so it's no test at all: he just defeats a dog.

Jack

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Yes, that's exactly what I meant. My abilities to explain may need a little work.

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Originally Posted by Crofab

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. My abilities to explain may need a little work.

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Well, I understood you perfectly, and I agree with you :)

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WOW for all that responded to this post i want to say THANK YOU . some one once told me the best way to learn is to JUST SIT BACK AND LISTON AND YOU WILL LEARN ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW. jack i just love this board you can truly learn something and enjoy what you are learning WITHOUT ALL THE DISTRACTIONS like the other board had .

Crofab and Jack so I have a question for yall ( anyone else feel free to put your input in also) So in the situation where you have a good hound and the last roll you want to put something on him that will dominate him, what if he's such a good animal that you really don't see too much dominating or better yet you might have one that you know will dominate him but he's a match hound and has already been campaigned! What do you do? Would u put your match hound on him??? :?

From what I have read, you just put said hound on the mill. For how ever long it takes to get the hound tired. 20,45 mins then see what you have. I wouldn't think you would have to put your best on him, to see any thing.. JMHO

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Originally Posted by Fatcat

Crofab and Jack so I have a question for yall ( anyone else feel free to put your input in also) So in the situation where you have a good hound and the last roll you want to put something on him that will dominate him, what if he's such a good animal that you really don't see too much dominating or better yet you might have one that you know will dominate him but he's a match hound and has already been campaigned! What do you do? Would u put your match hound on him??? :?

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If were a competitor, the little one whipping the big ones would be my match dog.

Jack

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Originally Posted by Fatcat

Crofab and Jack so I have a question for yall ( anyone else feel free to put your input in also) So in the situation where you have a good hound and the last roll you want to put something on him that will dominate him, what if he's such a good animal that you really don't see too much dominating or better yet you might have one that you know will dominate him but he's a match hound and has already been campaigned! What do you do? Would u put your match hound on him??? :?

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If I have a dog that's so good that nothing much is dominating him, then I have a decision to make. I can either decide to show the dog on the strength of what I've seen him do already, or I can set it up for the campaigned dog to give him a little go to see how he handles that pressure. By your description, the dog you're looking to school his last time sounds like a match quality dog.

Those kind of decisions are made on a case by case basis. Usually, if I have a dog of that caliber, I'm not looking to stick him in a meat grinder. Unless I've seen something I deem as negative from the dog, I will let someone else deal with him. Now, if somewhere along the way, I saw something I didn't quite agree with, then I would let the campaigned dog have a go at him and see how he handles that particular pressure.

I agree with you 100% Crofrab, well put

Concur: that was well put, very.

nmo there r alot of quotes & hype pple put on our beautiful animals n order to make a SALE or they just b ego trippin!!the 1 i smiled @ which i like is!!!A LOVED CUR WILL WIN OVER A ABBUSSED GAMEDOG ALLDAY!!RUDD!!

Damn good thread!

My partner in crime sonny mean streets. ( scratch in peace ) was a firm believer in testing a dog to the fullest. Thats if you were trying to base a foundation off of him/her. Now a brood dog and a match dog are completely different. To test a dog extremely hard that u were planning on taking out would not be to wise. look at Ali there's only so much damage a dog or human for this matter can take before certain things to start failing .. And since dogs can't talk it's a little harder to see what is actualy hurt inside of them. Every dog we have in our foundation stock was put to the test How can you put ur life into something that u have questions about. Just cause their parents were spectacular dogs doesn't mean to much as far as ther offspring goes Now Iv seen to curs produce a litter with two Ch a one Gr Ch but what pride can u really take in breeding something that isn't tested all of the way. Personally Iv had to cull whole litters because of not testing hard enough. Thought I had a dog worthy of being put into our blood bred it then turned out to be a better than average cur u have to test hard and cull hard if you want a solid line. If your just looking for a match dog then that's a whole mother story. U can get a pup out of a Sunday paper and make a winner out of em. I just feel like if I'm putting my life into something why would I want question marks throughout the pedigree. I want something that I am proud off point blank not a single question. I might be ass backwards but with our line I am very thankfullnthat sonny culled as hard as he did and tested as hard as he did now 3o years later I have something that I know is worth it. Not a yard full of questionmarks. Granted that most dogs will tap out in the right cercomstance I feel a lot better knowing my fam comes from a line of belly scratchers than just some pretty peds and decent dogs

Tested hard, what does that mean...
Guess it depends on who you ask :o

Things that make you said hmmm... Can a cur hog, test your game dog... :shock:
Not a ?...

[quote="waccamaw"]the true test is the actual hunt[/quot ;)

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Originally Posted by saw

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Originally Posted by waccamaw

the true test is the actual hunt[/quot ;)

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The true test is always is the hunt! but now i wonder r these hounds being game tested the ones who r competing, and how much timw constitutes a game test? I was brought up in these hounds that u school to teach ur hound and the handler. This is only a matter of opinion but i think those first two schoolings r to teach ur hound against different styles so maybe said hound learnes and can adapt if they see it in a match. I also thought that game test was for the handler to see if he was bringing a game hound to bet on. Not saying he wont quit but u sure have a little more understanding about the level of gameness with witch ur bringing. I guess im from the old school i could never bring myself to compete with an animal that i have not severly game tested.

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Originally Posted by saw

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Originally Posted by waccamaw

the true test is the actual hunt

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;)

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If a dog goes on a hunt, and blows through his opponent in :20, that was no test at all.

The hunt is not always a test; a "win" doesn't necessarily mean a dog is good or worth breeding to ...

I have seen "winners" perform that I wouldn't give a quarter for ... and I have seen dogs rolled that I would be proud to own.

Jack


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