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[IMG]http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...res/161020.jpg[/IMG]Now that I've gone back and took a closer look at this litter's pedigree, it's not so bad after all. I like the way Ch Blonka dame's pedigree is put together and her sire is not so bad either. :cheers:
No, Bob Cox, as in Peeks & Cox' CH Sluggo. Bob Cox is also the man from whom Bobby and Skeet originally purchased CH Bad Billy.
I told you folks that Gentleman's Choice was involved with both the S&W dogs and breeding to CH Hammer simultaneously. The following pedigree is a result of him blending those 2 families of dogs which are in fact one. In essence, when you consider the true breeding behind CH Hammer, this is a 3/8ths Reuben bred dog. Also, be sure to click on the pedigree of the sire Bumper for a nice black and white photo. This exhibits the head shape and body type that was typical of these dogs without the CH Bad Billy blood infused.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=7618
Here is a dog Kloos and I bred from the family in 1991, these were 50% Reuben dogs. Sometimes the traits took after the Heinzl blood in the pedigree, thus the brindle of CH Fox and this deadgame son of his Mad Sam. This principle is something I continue to emphasize over and over. Some of the straightest dogs that carry an ancestor's traits may have relatively little of the blood, and dogs with deep breeding on a certain dog may not have many of the traits whatsoever.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=2562
CH Tuko was a classic CH Bad Billy-Reuben dog. Many, many of the dogs from he family had this look minus the ear crop.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=7623
Excellent read! Many thanks to both Jack and TFX for taking the time to write all this out.
TFX, I have a question. Do you have any idea where I can get a couple of collars similar to the one that Bumper is wearing in that picture? I've searched and searched for some collars THAT wide, and everything I find comes up miserably short in quality.
Frosty,
I think you would have to make something like that. In my estimation, that thing is way too wide for working a dog. I like a 2" collar with a sheepskin fleece cover for working a dog, ala Don Mayfield. I always used one of those seatbelt covers over the collars and they work real fine.
Great stories and rundown, TFX, sorry I haven't been online much to comment.
I hope you don't mind, but I took the liberty of converting all of your pedigrees to this database :)
Cheers,
Jack
PS: As we have talked about, it would have been great to blend some of these core Reuben/Bad Billy-type dogs with Poncho and Missy (which are essentially Reuben/Hammer/Hollingsworth-type dogs). I think the Hollingsworth blood ads a certain rugged-durability that few other lines can match, which is also behind your Roto bitch.
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/g.../atcollar2.jpg
speaking about Mayfield collars, the above photo is from the guy known as gringopistolero in pitbull forums, student of Mayfield. The collar was given to him by his mentor.
This is now getting to be way off-subject, but that really is a handsome collar.
Much thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Are the Reuben dogs known to be stubborn barkers?
By God, some of them are!
Most of my stubborn barkers are actually my smartest and most-loyal dogs ... who only want to be in the house ... and are absolutely wonderful when they're the center of attention ... but are incredible pains in the ass when they're on a chain.
Others are rock-calm, period.
Jack
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...fx/PB-Copy.jpg
This is Smith & Walton's PB, who is the maternal grandsire to my CH Costello dog, and a direct son of Reuben to Kudo. Those of you who are familiar with Jack's line look at this dog who was born about 1986, and compare him to the CH Miagi dog. There is just a lot of similarity in them, a certain look that is very unique.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...res/105945.jpg
Wow never knew you were there to breed the dogs that produced Ch Shiver, and she is what % Poncho? I came up with 31.25% maybe my math is off. Congrats on YOUR dog CH Shiver
I have nothing to do with the CH Shiver bitch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez Country
Hello there.
I am curious to know what, exactly, prompted this outburst?
I can't see where anyone insinuated having anything to do with Shiver's breeding here.
Let's see if we can keep things friendly :)
Jack
"as well as with my own Poncho dogs, such as Ch Red Bull and Ch Shiver."
Didn't intend to come off so rough. I will keep it friendly. I wouldn't consider a dog my own that I had no part in the selection process.
I understand now.
I was thinking about Ch Red Bull, not Ch Shiver specifically. I totally agree that I had nothing to do with the selection process that created Ch Shiver. She just happened to be owned by the same guy who is friends with both TFX and myself, and is linebred off of heavy Poncho dogs. The point I guess had to do with the blood, and I certainly wasn't trying to take credit from you.
Jack
Cool, I am with you guys on the Rueben thing, I will try and get a picture of Price put up here for you he is 75% Chase and looks like a Carver dog to me. As for CH Shiver one of the best I have ever seen and she was just an 11 month old pup.
That would be cool. Also, I am not sure how much you've read up on the Pedigree Database, but you can upload as many as 4 photos of each dog (plus videos if you have them), and it would be nice to see some larger/new photos of Chase/Chita and some of your other foundational dogs get added over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez Country
Jack
I have read a little, and I started to ad some but got sidetracked, been browsing this site, some pretty good stuff nice work
Only just got round to reading this, and after listening to the tape and studying the peds its took several hours to digest :cheers:
Thanks to you guys for taking the time to post your thoughts and experiences with these dogs it made a very interesting read.
Many years ago I took a trip to Ireland, while there I saw GR CH Badger and his son CH Bob, also saw some other stuff bred off Badger put to bitches off different lines. Dont remember the peds but one thing that jogged my memory after reading this thread was a high percentage of them was red or black and carried that blaze.
Pretty sure i have a pic of Bob which i will put up for you in the next couple day. Off the top of my head he had 6 races.
Wish I still had this one, his breeding was made twice 6 in each litter all bulldogs.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=8442
Beautiful animal! Looks like a male Sassy.
Sassy reminds me of a dog named Ranger bro to CH Slave
Interesting... Thanks for the great knowledge.
i agree with you 100peercent skipper....Quote:
Originally Posted by skipper
I will have to re-add some of the photos I placed here.
Somehow they got deleted, so I will try to re-add them so the impact of my argument is greater.
Okay, everybody, I have re-entered the photographs I had originally put here as visual evidence of my case here.
I think I forgot to transfer them to this new server, back when I changed servers, but that omission has been corrected now.
Makes a much more powerful case with the visual presentation (please see page 1).
Jack
havent those always been there? because i remember seeing that comparison before.....
Yes, they were there originally, that's why you saw them.
Then I transferred servers and some were lost, and then (no) they weren't there; although a few photos remained.
I just put the missing ones in today, so unless I lost my mind and am delusional, I am positive today is the first day several of those photos have been visible in awhile :)
Jack
Another interesting scenario is that inasmuch as Bobby and Pat really despised each other, when their dogs were mated together; whether the pedigrees were represented properly or not, it always produced fantastic dogs. Here is but another example, this time on the CH Bad Billy ROM side:
http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mod...e&dog_id=39107
CH Senorita is the sister of Bill Bancroft's Tina, who was the best bitch Bancroft ever owned and arguably even better than CH Senorita. Tina in turn became the double bred granddam of the great Schoolteacher's GR CH Shep dog.
Looking at the pedigree, it looks like the bottom side added smarts to the top, making Ch Señorita a complete bulldog.
I could be wrong but whenever I look at a good dog's pedigree, one side of the pedigree is always inbred or line bred.
For example this bitch http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...hp?dog_id=8046
When we campaigned her dam Ch IcePick, she wasn't a smart dog(chest, shoulder) typical of a mixed bred mutt. But she was a straight forward fight crazy bitch.
Her sire Screaming Icon was a smart head dog. When I bred them together, Screaming IcePick got the best of both world. She will defend and kill.
I don't know, the CH Bad Billy dogs were about as ringwise as I have ever seen. My CH Costello was 7/16ths CH Bad Billy/Hannibal breeding, and he was a tremendously smart dog. He has thrown that same pit intelligence into a high percentage of his descendants now generation after generation. You're right, some good dogs have half of their pedigree inbred or linebred. I find the best ones to breed to after they have performed will have the entire pedigree linebred. Keep breeding to the higher end animals from your yard as you mentioned, and you will continue to raise the quality of the line.
Fellows here is some more Fly in the soup. Right before Pat left Oregon. Thinking he may have moved to Arizona when he moved from Oregon.
Within a short time before he moved from Oregon. Pat and some fellow dog friends of his. I no longer remember who else or how many that Mr. Orbie Coplin named that was present with Pat. This was 35 years ago or more.
Pat came up to pull some dogs with Mr.Coplin. Too also look at his kennel of dogs. Mr. Coplin's dogs were based on some of the older breedings off Heinzl's yard. They were good dog friends.
May have been two or three dog pulls that day.. Mr. Coplin had one promising male that out pulled one of Pat's dogs. May have stopped Pat's dog from pulling. Orbie said Pat looked real surprised as you could see his eyes very well through those thick glasses. Seems Orbie got the better of Pat's dogs in the dog pulls that day. Mr. Coplin at that time was up in age. But still going strong.
Now here is the bad story part of this pulling event with Pat. Within two days or so after the dog pulls. Some one or some bodies came up in the late night. Up through the back woods to where Mr. Coplin had his dogs. The promising male that looked real good was stolen along with two of his favorite female dogs.
Mr. Coplin called me upset and told me what had happen. Even though Pat lived in Oregon. Was still a good drive from Mr.Coplin's place to where Pat was living. He had planned to make the trip. But in a very short period of time. Pat had up and moved.
Mr. Coplin had never had that to happen to him before that I knew of. He did not see who got the dogs. Strangely the dog thieves knew which ones to get. Was not a random type stealing. Never happened again till Mr. Coplin passed on.
He was a great friend to me and helped me along in the game. Even sent me two young stud dogs that turned out very well for only the cost of the shipping. I sent him a nice black male pup off Mayfield's Snake bred to my Young's (Coplin) Tina. Orbie named him Carolina Kid. The other Coplin bitch Pokey was owned by Vernon Jackson. My partner in the dogs back then.
One will never know. But there might be a little of the Coplin breeding in some of those Early bred Patrick dogs. Then maybe not. If so did not hurt the line any. Why you have to try and do your best with what you have.
The plot thickens ... lol :)
Good read. Sometimes I like the history of the dogs as much as the dogs themselves. Not to play the ends against the middle but here is my take. Jack you should call up the PATRICKS, say, "hello, this is Jack and thanks for all you did in the dogs" and hang up. If they had actually bred Hammer the way he is papered Poncho may not have ability or durability or finish. He could have even checked up right off the bat. The next dog you had in mind may not have taught you or made you see what Poncho was able to do. So regardless of whether he was bred this way or that way you started with him and bettered things starting with him. So now some hundred years later, does it really matter? For me, no. Did I enjoy the reading and the conversation? Absolutely.
My thought process about this using a similar story. Young pitcher is our area that is blessed with a golden arm. Like a lot of them he has never been blessed with good coaching and worse has a father living the glory years thru his kid. He is asked to throw too much. But the father's penis lengthens with every outing. The kid's arm begins to fade as 16 year old. Just too many innings. Father and coach have major argument. Coach is an ass and does not have kids best interest at heart. Just uses him to no end. Kid has elbow issues. Coach pressures him to throw and dad wants him to throw. Kid quits baseball his senior year in high school. Does not pitch a day because the two people who are looking out for him are not. Sad story. But wait. His arm rests for an entire year. His love and passion are still there. He walks on to a D-1 school and makes their starting rotation. His future is bright.
The moral to the story is that if those two people that should have been looking out for him had not pushed him out of baseball for the wrong reasons he would have thrown his arm out and became a 'never-was' or a 'couldabeen'. But instead the shortcomings of another was a blessing in disguise. Poncho was Poncho, and Poncho had no idea who his 'pops' or his 'moms' were. So in back door way they did you a favor by making Poncho regardless of which route it took to get to Poncho. The important fact is Poncho was Poncho. Just like this kid. The key factor was he rested a worn out arm, why he rested in really amounts to nothing in the grand scheme of things.
A great article. Enjoyed the read. I recently had the opportunity to talk to a dog man in his 70's who had dogs in the fifties, a two generation dog man. The phone call lasted nearly two and a half hours. I never met or talked to 95% of the people he talked about but it was history and it was interesting. So for the history aspect, great job. EWO