Gameness is either there or not, you can add wind....how about ability?

How honest a dog is IMO, is a constant. In other words a dogs gameness is absolute. It must manifest though and of course the handler plays a roll in that. Different variables and intensity of those variables will show you the cur. Some folks are better at avoiding or nullifying those variables.

As for the physical attributes. Everything can be refined but the more you refine something the increments become exponentially smaller. Like previously mentioned, some folks whet the blade better than others.

Something must be seen in order for it to manifest. At the same time other things need to stay unseen. It's always interesting to see one mans dogs in another good mans hands. Everyone has a different gauntlet with different variables and intensities.

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Originally Posted by Black Hand

It is a human that chooses when where and with whom it is schooled with so it is definitely influenced by man. That's like saying, I didn't wreck my dog... his much bigger stronger and more experienced opponent wrecked him!

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I agree with you on the part that the human selects the type of dog they would like to teach their dog something in a schooling session. The place i dont agree is that the humans hand in it stops there. For example if your dog was rolled 3 times with all 3 opponents were front end dogs and all your hound ever learned in those 3 rolls was how to tuck his front legs. You decide for his next roll you want him to face a backend ace. What you are doing is trying to expose your dog to a different style(school him). Lets say when you release your dog the backend ace runs his scrarch and for the first time in his life he immediately tries to take a shoulder hold and never gets to touch anything for the duration. Your dog has still only experienced front end dogs. Yes the human can choose the opponent but the human cant make the opponent fight a certain way. Thats why i say its the opponet teaches the prospect. He gets exposed to a senario and its up to him whether he learns/adapts to it.

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Originally Posted by skipper

A dog in poor shape wont be able to use his ability to the fullest, not even close.

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Im only talking about ability. Conditioning to me is an entire different category.

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Originally Posted by gotap_d

I disagree. I dont think that all assets can be enhanced. If a dog isnt a natural finisher i dont think the human element can make him such. As well as with ability, if the dog has low ability and cant wrestle i dont think the human element can change this. I believe it can be changed through schooling but i consider that the opponent teaching the prospect. Jmo. I would like to hear some ways that a human can enhance a dogs ability though.

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I would agree that finish is a trait that cannot be added or enhanced.

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Originally Posted by SteelyDan

How honest a dog is IMO, is a constant. In other words a dogs gameness is absolute. It must manifest though and of course the handler plays a roll in that. Different variables and intensity of those variables will show you the cur. Some folks are better at avoiding or nullifying those variables.
As for the physical attributes. Everything can be refined but the more you refine something the increments become exponentially smaller. Like previously mentioned, some folks whet the blade better than others.
Something must be seen in order for it to manifest. At the same time other things need to stay unseen. It's always interesting to see one mans dogs in another good mans hands. Everyone has a different gauntlet with different variables and intensities.

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Totally disagree with you and believe your opinion to be the great blunder in thinking of most dogmen: the game/cur mentality (as if there aren't degrees of gameness).

Gameness = the will to win. And the will to win does vary within the individual and *is* influenced by many factors (age, condition, health, level/style of opponent, etc.).

Anyone who thinks that a dog is either "dead game" or "a rank cur" ... and that there aren't an infinite degrees of gameness (desires to win) inbetween these two extremes ... again suffers from the greatest mental block and lack of understanding in these dogs.

Jack

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Originally Posted by LEFTLANE

Ability can improve threw school.

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"can" improve after every new contact. some dogs seem to keep learning

As you said, through schooling. If a person chose all stifle dogs to school his charge and then on show night he experiences his first head dog he will be in trouble. He will not have the ability and/or knowledge to figure things out. Some dogs have natural ability and talent and figure things out quickly but it is the owners responsibility to provide him with as much experience in all areas to enhance that ability. In some cases ability and experience go hand in hand and are one in the same.

If a dog lacks ability and can't wrestle he should be exposed to another who will help him get there. After that exposure even if the ability is not where one would hope for it will still be better (enhanced) than it was in the beginning. Easier said, ability is enhanced through experience and for the dogs that experience is through schooling. Of the things that one can enhance ability is the easiest. EWO

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Originally Posted by gotap_d

I disagree. I dont think that all assets can be enhanced. If a dog isnt a natural finisher i dont think the human element can make him such. As well as with ability, if the dog has low ability and cant wrestle i dont think the human element can change this. I believe it can be changed through schooling but i consider that the opponent teaching the prospect. Jmo. I would like to hear some ways that a human can enhance a dogs ability though.

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Originally Posted by EWO

As you said, through schooling. If a person chose all stifle dogs to school his charge and then on show night he experiences his first head dog he will be in trouble. He will not have the ability and/or knowledge to figure things out. Some dogs have natural ability and talent and figure things out quickly but it is the owners responsibility to provide him with as much experience in all areas to enhance that ability. In some cases ability and experience go hand in hand and are one in the same.

If a dog lacks ability and can't wrestle he should be exposed to another who will help him get there. After that exposure even if the ability is not where one would hope for it will still be better (enhanced) than it was in the beginning. Easier said, ability is enhanced through experience and for the dogs that experience is through schooling. Of the things that one can enhance ability is the easiest. EWO

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The only place we agree is that the human can select the opponent. I dont think you understood what i was trying to say. Here it is again. If all my dog was schooled with is front end dogs the right thing for me to do would be to expose him to a different style lets say i choose a face dog for his next schooling(this is something a human can control). Now when the time comes and the face dog is released and goes to the front end for the duration of the roll your dog still has only experienced defending himself against front end opponents. You can set up a schooling for your dog hoping to see one thing and when you get there the other dog does something like change his style or not be as rough as he always was. Thats why i say its the opposing dog/experience that teaches your dog and not the human.

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Totally disagree with you and believe your opinion to be the great blunder in thinking of most dogmen: the game/cur mentality (as if there aren't degrees of gameness).

Gameness = the will to win. And the will to win does vary within the individual and *is* influenced by many factors (age, condition, health, level/style of opponent, etc.).

Anyone who thinks that a dog is either "dead game" or "a rank cur" ... and that there aren't an infinite degrees of gameness (desires to win) inbetween these two extremes ... again suffers from the greatest mental block and lack of understanding in these dogs.

Jack

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I agree with you on this here Jack 100% like most things. Me and a group of friends have this argument about every 2 weeks over a beer, because they believe it to be absolute but at the same time will say "this dog is gamer than this one." How when you say either he game or isn't we all agree that its levels to gameness.

There is no true definition of "gameness" Like in basketball, to be considered a great Free Throw shooter you have to avg over 90% of made attempts. We dont have a universal, "yup that's gameness right there." Because I've seen many times a dog go well over 2 hours and folks hoot and holler how deeply game he is and I'm thinking, he is game to a degree for having the will to go, definitely has some pit game because he went that long, but one thing I've always was taught and seen with my own experiences, is that a dog will show you gameness quicker from being tired then he will in pain. The dog that went 2 hours dont mean he is deep deep game and will take his death bed.

For instance last one i seen go 1:47, they said that dog about deep game as a live dog can be. I said not really, he went 50 mins before he took his first breath and with his condition was able to control and lay the whammy on his opponent that was trying to keep pace and defend himself. With doing so shot his load and took his first breath around 20 and was trying to catch his pace for the next 30 while getting the whammy. By time the winner took his breath at 50, he took so much out of his opponent that even though he was taking a breather and trying to get past the wall, the other didnt have nothing to hurt him with. So that's why after taking a breather and bottom for about 4 mins he came right back up top with his 2nd win and was able to dominate.. Not that he wasn't deep game or that he wont prove someday that he will take his bed on his belly trying, but it sure dont mean because he passed 1 hour he is absolutely some dog that will belly whop all the way across dying while giving his effort.

Great post CrazyRed.